So if you just do doggy style in a mask, you're safe from COVID, right? Umm. Umm. nope. We're talking this week about sex during the pandemic and then with Minji Chang on the FirstofAll Pod about all the nitty-gritty of sex & dating during this time. We discuss our own COVID experiences & perspectives on dating apps, virtual dates, reconnecting with exes, coping with current relationships & projections of the TBD future of dating culture.
Follow Minji @minjeezy and @firstofallpod.
Thank you to our partner for this episode:
BetterHelp: Get 10% off your first month of online therapy at betterhelp.com/dateable with the code DATEABLE.
BONUS: Love & Dating in the Time of COVID w/ Minji Chang from FirstofAll
00:00:00 - 00:05:02
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about the Y. Y wise of modern dating why people do things they do and why people think the way they do this week. Was Action packed for us? In terms of press, we were on K. Q. E. on Friday, where we had exactly nine minutes to get everything out there, but love in the time of Corona. Yes and kick U. E. D. as part of us, and this was broadcast out to northern California, but also you can find the link. We put up the link in our instagram. What was it's always a fun experience doing these press interviews because you don't really know what they're gonNA, end up at an out, so Julian I spent a lot of time the night before, just prepping everything we wanted to cram into the nine minutes. We finished our segment in eight minutes. We were like Whoa. We did it. That was nerve wracking. Where such overachievers! It's like also I. Don't know it just seems to happen to us that early podcast day I feel like over time. I've gotten a little better at this, but I feel like when I re listened to a podcast, I'm like oh I wish I said that you know. That comments and I definitely remember like the interview I mentioned our facebook facebook groups in general Mike. Why did I specifically say our facebook? But it's like one of those things like hide site that you bike. That wasn't actually even prepared questions that was kind of like a random one that came at us right. Yeah, so know for anybody who's really interested about the behind the scene 'cause I'm always interested as well. We had pre-production call with the anchor Priya and her producers, so we went over. Some of the topics could be discussed, and we had a really good time just shooting. The Shit I'm use a very casual conversation, right? It was like girl's talking over Brunch, and then On On Thursday, they did a tech call with us. Just make sure lighting and sound was fine. That took like two minutes per person boom done in on Friday. We just had to be on skype at a certain time, and they were gonNA bring us into the conversation, and all of a sudden gusts super serious, because it went from this really casual conversation like Preah. The anchor was in her kitchen, eating lunch while talking and now she's in a suit. She's like oh makeup. Not Next we're talking about love in the time of it with you and Julie and it was like well. All of a sudden Oh my God this is. This is the news. Yeah, I definitely have that reaction to I think it was like the backdrop of very. What is it just like? It's just that very standard news. Ask Imagery. It's hard to explain but I. Think you all know what I'm talking about. But as soon as I saw that and I think the suit also big part of it I was like. In the Inter that froze at one point, the head like re-shoot once seen, but or one topic, not a scene. And Action But when they played it back where y'all have to check out the link. I think we didn't awesome job. We were right after Alice waters, who is a bay area icon? Basically she is woman behind shape unease. She is just a culinary genius, and it was really fantastic, because she's the leading story, and then followed her so I was really proud of us for that and I hope there's more to come again. Thank you SABA for this. Article, it just all spiraled yet. You know what's interesting. Though because there was the one question there was about like. If we thought dating was gonNA, see had been contributing to cove in the ended up getting cut, and I'm kind of gratitude. Take was like we're not medical professionals. You know like we have stands of our opinion, but it's not really like a professional opinion in that sense. Right like I. Think the way we were thinking about it is it's a lot different. If you're going around having sex with a ton of different people versus you're going on like a socially distance date with a mask, those are very different risk levels, but it got me thinking about more about sex during this time, and we have this really interesting article in our facebook group that was sent around, and it was a lot of medical experts that weighed in in their take. At least I interpreted the article was they were like well. You know kissing is pretty darned dangerous standing. And also. With sex tends to come kissing, so they were like okay well, maybe can wear a mask into doggy style.
00:05:03 - 00:10:03
And I don't know there's just like there was some comments in the group. Two and one person said, and I totally agree with this. It's like okay. If you're already getting that close proximity to someone, you're running a risk like I think it's kind of like a false sense of security that you think that you're safe because you're doing doggy style in like someone in the group comment that they actually did doggy style With With ask the garlic wanted to cuddle after he's like I. Didn't know what to do. Not here cuddling time, but that's not safe so I don't know it's just an interesting topic. Well also just feels very transactional. What do you do like? Is there no romance to this at all, do you? Just you get looped up in your own respective rooms? And then you come out? Put a mask on and then do doggystyle. I don't I don't understand where the four play and the after play or play comes from, and how without even make you feel good I think I feel like Shit just doing doggystyle style with mask on with someone I just met me to I would almost rather just do virtual sex if it came down to those of the two options, it's like you know I don't know there's just something about kissing. That is so core to sacks that it feels. It feels like it wouldn't be worth it to me not to have that piece of the equation Yes unless if you were pretty far along your relationship, and this is some avenue of Kink you want to explore. That could be cool I, didn't think bass could be Kinda sexy actually I think they definitely could be. There's some like I think we should make a lot of mass that you know. I felt like Grade Party. You go to. Savvy of we'd like dateable Sykes Bask or just a massive. Totally based. Out there. WHY NOT I know! Fascinated, though I think like one of the people said that it's obviously you're technically was to stay in your household, but the reality is that singles? Aren't you know it's? It's a hard place right now like we should. We just be pausing all life at the same time, so I think one girls take was I'd rather defined the relationship earlier with someone and just make it a pack that we're only sleeping with each other and like habit progress rather than do this like whole doggy style with Bass situation. It's tricky because after they asked that question I I don't know from the people we've talked to. Everyone seems to be quite responsible when it comes to dating, but there's not responsible when it comes to their own social circles for some reason because you know your friends, you feel like I trust them. More. which I think on some level makes sense, but when the group gets bigger, your chances of risk do get higher and I. Think we kind of forget that 'cause you're like. Oh, I have known this person for years like I. Trust them, but can you. Can you really trust people right now? I don't know I wasn't by something. Over the weekend that I respectively declined and I the perse, either be sent me a video today, and it looks like a freaking cluster fuck of a bunch of people without masks on Ya and partying like nothing had happened right, and I'm just like I'm not there yet, but people are totally fucking. You know there's. I think there's two camps of people like there's the people that are dislike. Bucket discount to do makeshift events because we can't go to bars, per se or Go Go to like we'll just have house parties or region the park, and then there's other people that are sticking to smaller social circle so I guess it all depends on your comfort of left on the risks that you're willing to take I. Don't know if I'm there yet. It sucks because of like oh I'd WanNa be there, but I just don't think I'd be comfortable I. Think the whole time I'd be thinking about. It and I made a joke to him that I think I got covid just watching this video. Is like monopoly money, but. So I went to Dolores Park this weekend, just for a hot second, because one I one see the circle. Circles and for anybody WHO's not familiar with San Francisco Dolores Park is basically where the young and high and drunk people hang especially on a beautiful Saturday afternoon, and so they've implemented these these circles where you stay within them, and it's only part of the park where they have now so where they do the circles. Everyone was abiding by the boundaries. Once you leave the. Circles it was a cluster fuck to there was the biggest gay party happening, and these really hot guys were topless in little. thongs and little swim. I even know what. Anything and they were all clustered together drinking and a great time. It looked like but the whole time I just kept thinking like this does not look right. I ain't nothing corentin together this whole time, and so the circle we were in again was for my boyfriend's friends birthday, and he had a couple of friends there, and for some reason, even though I Like Like people I just didn't feel like socializing meeting New People with a mask on and with the atmosphere.
00:10:03 - 00:15:01
I'm just not in the mood. Yeah, I mean I do miss meeting more people and I think that's why our even our virtual happy hours have filled the void with that like I think people have people become legit friends from them. I think that's so amazing. I do miss that I. think that really energizes me in general meeting. New People, and talking to people on, I just haven't had that, but at the same time I don't miss it that much. Like go wrist style. I don't know I went to the Marina district in San Francisco which is also known to be like kind of like the FRAT party area, but I went on Friday for dinner with some friends, and I mean even my walk over which I kind of enjoy that I'm like walking everywhere now. What are the silver linings? But my walk over I mean just like all the bars and restaurants were packed in. We went to a sushi place in. We sat outside and I felt relatively safe I felt very confined to the other people I was with. But I don't know it's like it's such a hard line to balance because we might be like this for a while. Like what are we gonNA, do to shut in completely like at least gives a sense of normalcy like we were talking about last weekend when we went to wine country. To felt like normal times. Friday definitely felt more normal besides the fact that everyone was outside of masks, but besides. I do think this mask wearing is going to be a thing for a while and I. Actually I mean it's uncomfortable, but I kind of prefer I. Think it's more hygienic. For keeps everything cleaner and the worst thing that can happen during any sort of networking event or social event. Is someone talking spitting in your face, so it's nice that we had these shields now and I do hope that they stay around for a while, but I had no idea. How controversial masks were I mean? I knew a little bit, but I didn't think they were in San Francisco and I finally met someone who just purely did not believe in SF NSF who just thinks this is just a Crock Crock of Shit, it's a dress made up, and he feels like his rights are taken away from it from him. Yeah I mean that's a very real feeling in this country like I thought it was like a little war condense to different areas, but maybe you just don't hear it as loud. You know like in right Lou, cities and states like the sure. There's some people that feel that way. It's just not the overarching message that keeps getting pushed. Yeah, but Julie there. There's some really cute masks out there. Mass I. Thought you said there are some really cute guys out there, and I was like. How would I approached them? They're like. Get away from the. First Time in history when a girl approaches guy there like stay. Away summer like come on over. What can't you ask about Bask-? Deal you know. But we also said our reservations where like eight PM. So we got a little like like San Francisco Knights. Get a little chilly overall. It was better than I thought it was going to be to be honest, but we were like. Oh, the mass kind of gives you that extra layer of. Silver lining. That's like keeps you like all condensed. Nothing. I was talking to a friend of mine and we were talking about a Burmese tea leaf salad, which is so delicious. It's filled with garlic right so every time I. Get it. I make sure I'm not talking to anybody for at least like five hours afterwards and he's like. Isn't it worse now because you're just like breathing in your? Breath. For the rest of the day like. Is it a worse? You mentioned. Also contain too bad breath. But then if you already smell like garlic, your breathing the garlic. David notice at the point because it's are there, you know? Yeah, it's like if a tree falls in a forest as there. That's really. What it is. Philosophical Philosophical I want to do a follow up just a little note from last week. Because bring it back down to a little seriousness, we were talking about racism and why there's no like Rehab and finally dawned on me, and I thought why is racism not illegal in America like yeah? Legal and therefore, if jaywalking illegal racism should be illegal I know it's against the first amendment freedom of expression, but there needs to be something put in place in legal system where if someone makes a racist remark taking jail, and then there's some sort of Rehab. Re Transition Process. We talked about it last week, but Karrada in San. Francisco is. You know it's at least like there I think that's a thing that makes it difficult with that. For example, there's a definite action that they can be like okay.
00:15:01 - 00:20:03
You call the police on someone. That wasn't dry anything because of their race because it's not subjective way. He I think that's where we get very hard. It's like people can defend themselves guesses the part that makes it difficult, but if you know blacks in your dating profile, that's right. Is there any right? That's a good point because there's definitely different lines of racism like there, some like overt things that you're right if you say that like. How is that misunderstanding anything? Yeah, pretty straightforward. Yeah I. Don't know you send them the bill. On it. Right now on my IPAD. In the bill, but hey, I love more discussion around this. If you have any thoughts about this, DM US on instagram. That's where we're most active. 'cause we're always on our phones. we do, so we would love for more people to join the facebook group love time of Corona virus ever sense the CNN article came out. We've just had an influx of people joining, and now we've implemented a question that you should answer once you do request to join and the question is. What would you define as dateable out? We've been getting some really good answers. She reading them. Do you have what I do I? MEET OUR INC folder. Because I thought Oh my goodness. This is so fun because we never I mean. We started a podcast dateable, but we've never really defined what that means, so the latest one we've got. What is dateable mean to you free from the constraints of monogamous relationship. Tryst ing being in the right state of mind to find connections love it. Love it having the introspection to grow within yourself to become a better partner to someone else. Oh, so good! We should post this on instagram to and try to get some answers we should, and then we've gone a lot of these self aware, secure, honest and open. Those are the words that we've seen a lot of so we'll keep reading these as more people joined, but these have been just really refreshing to read I. Love that you. Are I think? I saw them coming and I was like. Oh Dot these somehow it. You're already doing it. This is my this is my. This teamwork is great screengrabs. So that's one call to action, join our facebook group search for US love in the time of Corona virus by the dateable podcast event, also WanNa. Thank everyone for the reviews. We are getting so many. It's been amazing and ratings. You can just leave. A rating literally takes two seconds, and that helps honestly justice much so if you don't have time to review, although that takes like what a minute, but we still are down with just the ratings so helpful, and if you don't have an Iphone, you can also go on like if you a MAC computer, you can do it through itunes to again. Thank you so much especially if you're in the UK by lash out to the UK folks. I know no one. Uses apple apple products there, but I do see the stats. Coming in that apple is still the most popular podcast platform and your roof. You can literally make or break us because we have so few of them, so please give us a good one. And if you're a nice chap from UK, who happens to be single and quite dateable? Please reach out to Julie. Just when I had another love interest across the pond. Hey, now's the perfect time to do a pen pal. You have an offer the perfect time because we're not even allowed to go to the UK. That's okay because you're like if you're not seeing people in your own city, why can't you just household hole? In the UK, we're. We're not even allowed in. It's so sad I know. I used to say because I have a Chinese passport and I used to say that was the worst passport to have 'cause we had to get. Apply for everywhere else now. It's the US passport yet. Just my luck, just my luck. Okay so before we get to this episode again. This is a bonus episode for anybody WHO's new joining. We are starting season eleven very soon, but for this one we are rerunning an episode of the first of all podcast that we were on with Mindy. Mindy was on our podcast three weeks ago called me I menzies fantastic, so we wanted to bring her back into the mix and replay her episode, but before we just give you a little bit more intro about who mindy is Julie thing now the time to plant the seed for who is the ultimate celebrity we want on season. And I think every week. Saying their name and hoping. Agrees Sudden designs. Because I realized. There's people in our facebook group holistic. Whoever! Right. So who is that person? I think both of us have one that we both want. Maybe we can also think of one that we don't necessarily both want. But I think our mutual one I'll go there first then I'll see my individual or Michoacan, one is Elisa Schlesinger from elder millennial.
00:20:03 - 00:25:02
The comedian I think she's both on our bucket list I like we both bonded over that stand Up Up in general, so we were both related hard, and as fellow elder millennials, we would love to have a conversation about dating relationships. Love you know all that if you know her. If you know her uber driver, know her third cousin twice removed at doesn't matter if you know anybody who's bear, even like remotely touched her. Please let us know it would be. Touched her. What's what come on dateable podcast? We've already tried e mailing her agent her manager through her website. We've tried it all and I'm pretty sure. She's not her book tour right now, so she has all the time the world to do some podcast. Show on facebook with her husband, so she could totally another livestream right fantastic. I love managing your schedule. Totally another hour to do this podcast. That's why you guys got to give us the ratings and reviews, so it looks like we're a big deal and she's down to take that out. Yeah make us look legit so allies as like okay. All finally get on. These two stockers show. Okay, so what's another one that you have? My dream is Brennan Brown. Oh Hands Down I. Love Her so much. We also hit her a long time ago. I love that we say we hit her up. We sent an email through her west side. Though is we actually really proactively reached out to that? Many of these big guests like a lot of them have come to us through PR, so we have Yeah, I mean we did reach out today Brown through her like there's like email templates on your website. Do not get a response, but that was a couple years ago. Maybe now that we're a little bigger. hit number seventeen on the apple podcasts charts, so you throw that in maybe I'll I'll use that in the pitch Brunei. Brown would be so lovely to have. We're only sixteen after her podcast. Szekely in the same league. As, center screech out of here. You here is us. Let's collaborate wall. We're at it. Let's go. We're happy to be on your. We're like you know. We're finally open to having you. podcast seeing that you really earned that spots I just love love love love. Though and she such I think what I love about her to she so academic. She's so intelligent, but she speaks like real like real. Talk with your friends and I think it's very hard to find people like that, and I think it has really set her apart. Yeah I agree. WHO's yours so happy to have her on? Oh mine. Would Be Cannery ABS OH is your. Shocked. Shocked and had to think about this and I thought you know was showering yesterday. Who would be the ultimate person that I WANNA learn more about Hannah Reeves and I pre shared your impossible, because he's so private about his personal life, he's had a very traumatic personal life, especially when it comes to romance, and the the love category were from what I've. Read right so he's experienced. Quite a few tragedies, and I just WANNA. Know like what's what's keeping him going. Back and why? He's never part of any of the trash. She celebrity gossip magazines like him. Good about keeping private and also just people really respect it. I want to hear about his love life, and what East currently doing. If you single 'cause, know no ring on my finger to sing. I thought you were going to throw me while you're. Still here. He's like. I'm taking this. One's mind. You could have that red dough deloris. Kiana Reeves. He's me that British guy that you'll never see it realize. Hey can I throw one more sneaky one. Expand. This is my last. What I was love the BIEBER's I. Think they're so adorable. went to. Sit has a brother. Thank God her. That song, but duck on yours yours yeah, the one other team that our friend she'll and former gassed had his cameo, and I actually got deep into their facebook series. Meet the BIEBER's at about their story and I just think they had a really interesting story like he was a total playboy, like didn't give her the time of day, and then they broke up, and then he like really had to like make an upturn prove himself Oh and all before turning twenty one. Mature of They would be really interesting because I think they are setting an example.
00:25:02 - 00:30:04
Jen's ears who are looking for love and because they're young, they are. Really Young, but okay there we go. That's our list. Connection to any one of the head us up. Hello dateable podcast, or you could diaz at anytime error any our. You're able to make any sort of connection. We owe you big time, not only will we give you a shout on the show? You're in for a surprise I. Don't know the surprise. Surprise for us to, but we're going to make it big for you. Okay, you will not regret it. I was going to say when we can like some Mutt. Meet again in real life. We will somehow make it up to you. That will be something that we can do together for sure. Okay, all right take note of that so now we're ready for mingy of not that mingy is not on that list that we already crossed Mindy. So this list getting already. Charity mentioned on her on her episode. She did with us. The choose counterpart. Bad said so. She's already there you go. There! Where we get to our episode I do WanNa. Thank our sponsor that or help. Thank you so much for being our sponsor for this episode in these unprecedented times some of US actually most of us may be experiencing some challenging feelings for me. It's been feelings of helplessness. You guys know I have this anxiousness that I've been trying to get rid of knowing that working on your mental health is really important right now so I'm very thankful I've been working with better help. Who've ensured me that I'm not alone in this better. Health offers online counseling with professional, credible and compassionate therapists in a safe and private environment with three thousand US licensed professionals. Fifty states they make it easier than ever to find help. In fact, so many people have been using better. Help their recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states. Now you know now for dateable listeners. Only you get ten percent off your first month with the Code dateable get started today by going to better help. Dot Com slash dateable. Join over one million people taking Charge Charge of their mental health just simply fill out a questionnaire to assess your needs and get matched with a suitable counselor again. That's better help. Dot Com slash dateable and use the Code D. A.. T. E. A., B.. L. E. for ten percent off your first month. So now we're ready for Mindy Mindy is one of my favorite people that we talked to. She is is so introspective and too so fucking real. That girl gets Bra in real invulnerable her show first of all podcasts she talks about everything, but what is the best thing about her show is that you follow her evolution? Basically you get this exclusive look into her life, and she is just some very relatable and going through. What everyone else is going through, but she Has Has a great way to solve herself and to put framework around her personal development, and thank you Julie for introducing her because she's yours. Yeah, for sure I think I'm glad that we're able to make the collaboration happen. Re listening to the episode to. She was able to really do great interviewing skills with us to and we talk about you know the whole gamut of. Modern dating pre Cova D- what was going on to what is happening now and how? That's changing when we talk about DDR, find the relationship for bid. Citing examples from long ago to now that people are doing this like a sap, so they have sex like we were talking about earlier, so there's all sorts of topics that are coming full circle in this episode. We really hit it all so I. Think it's a great way to get a pulse of what's happening this era that we're in the pandemic that never has any never ending pandemic. At least we have mingy to help him. Here's us on her podcast first of all with Mindy. How're you doing? Good. How you doing girl? Oh. You know as best as one can be in. In Times, like these time that we're at. I know. When someone asks how you're doing like the default. But it's like, are you? Are you really doing good right now? It's such a loaded question like I. Genuinely I was like I. Don't know why. But I don't know if I can tell you the truth, because don't know if we have time for that. You never told us if you actually put on the red lipstick you're talking about. Okay so I started in this is this is the state of my life is that I started the red lipstick thing, so it's like a blushing pink right now. I didn't commit the. Okay. It's all good. It's like it's like a k pop lip gradient like that I love that you gave it. The name love it putting on makeup to feel like I. Just need to sound like I'm starting to just wear sweats every day and I'm like this is not good. I needed. This switch this up as up. One hundred percent I was wearing workout clothes every single day I.
00:30:04 - 00:35:02
Think the first two months because we're past the two. What two and a half months almost three now. Yeah, we needed to switch off. The workout clothes not filling the workout clothes I. Actually Change Atop 'cause I actually had to go into work this morning or today, so I kept my workout bottoms, but I switch out the top just to you know keeping things fresh. You see of that as well I had been definitely yoga pants, but I got the top onto, so it's halfway. There were getting their little. We're getting the gradual a gradual coming back to life. That, we're very see, and this is setting a good stage because. Very real about all the things that we talk about, and I just wanted to take a second to praise you guys again. I sang praises in the Intro, but I really appreciate the candid conversations in general appreciate. That's that's my vibe, but I love what you guys talk about in your podcast dateable. Mall because you? Know. We talk about on your podcast, too, and that's why we're doing this. We're doing handful the. Yeah Finally and I was just catch Julie before we started recording that you guys have been recording your podcast for four years now offer four. Twenty sixteen, it kind of started on a whim. We didn't really even know what podcasts were in you and I were in a bar. Like you know what? Let's do a podcast, and then we just kind of went from there. That's amazing how all podcast would start. Your bar. You're drunk and you're like we should do a podcast. Weren't they get so funny? Because now podcasts are thing they've. They've had their ramp up time to become a legitimate content. Platform 'cause with more I think. There was definitely like a niche crowd that was into the podcast universe they they knew the shows. He knew the host, but it wasn't. I don't feel like it was a four everyone universe not. Steam we were. Literally on soundcloud back then because there were new. Hosting platforms, it was so new at that point we were just kind of. We didn't think anyone would listen like. We started off as dating stories with our friends were like. Is Anyone even listening to this that we don't know in in? We just got like magically picked up by Huffington Post, and then it kind of started to escalate from there. That's insane I. Want to know more about this origin story before I mean because this is much about you. Guys were definitely going to talk about dating somebody who's listening. Hold your horses were GonNa. Forget! We'll get we'll get. We'll get to the T., but before I'm sorry. This is my space and my as my show so I want to know the t on the origin story. That's so cool to I'm a very big believer in make things for yourself first things that you're interested in and yeah, it doesn't matter obviously for making contact. You want an audience and you want people to connect with it. That's the reason you're putting it out there, but you never know right, and you never know what kind of an impact or making how far it gets spread, but you guys just made because it's something you wanted to talk about right and who? How did how did Huffington? Post happened like to someone? Recommend you and then. It was up out. SF that picked us up new the cameras from huffpost. I hung out their way around up out. Ben Huffpost Oh then I. Really don't. Burge's together at that point. I'm pretty sure it was the opposite because I thought that's what I found us, but Honestly I think for both of them. It was not US reaching out to them. It was just pure luck at that point. That's someone. The right person happened to hear us. That's awesome, and it's just like the right person, but it's like the message something sink dub. I'm very big on you know. Do I in timing and cutting out your truth, magical happen that way I very much believe in promote that, but that's really cool that whoever whoever this magical person wanted. Magical Person Yeah because like Donna. See the things that I've heard from the episode IV tuned into have been very therapeutic for me. It's just always feeling alone or like. Clarify what you might be going through in your I dating world. That's exactly what it is, and I think when you first met in. China on your side of the story, but you was a dating coach and she had experience outside in was fairly new to San Francisco where I had been for like my whole adult life, so kind of the way that people needed here was pretty much the norm to me, but I'll let you talk, but you felt like it was very different for you. I mean I was just when the fuck is going on here I had no idea. I've never been in you where. Where they're just clueless men out in the wild at but still. Still People said. This was such a great city to date for women.
00:35:02 - 00:40:08
You don't move like one of those things that cause four. I moved to San Francisco I remember. Everybody telling me you're going to have the best time there. The numbers are in your favor. And I get here and it's. I equated to a middle school. The ends or there may be a ton of boys. Boys they're. They're not on the dance floor. I can tell you that they're not it. War All the women. All the girls are one. All guys on the outside and everyone's just trying to figure out like how to ask each other dance. That's how I found out San Francisco. is they're playing hacky sack to in the pattern? Nobody exactly so. What we've learned from doing this. There's definitely differences in cities everywhere for sure, but there's. More similarities than differences of the end of the day I think we just started to notice a lot of them here because it's sometimes more prominent with like dating APPs being developed in San, Francisco or like people, just being a little more nonconformist, challenging traditional views, so not that we started to really see, trickle everywhere in. We actually started off as dating in SF podcast. We thought we were so freaking unique in that we realized arch at all. We realized that the shit everywhere that I was going through, so it was actually kind of fascinating revelation that it was not it was universal. I think that's an incredibly important discovery to have entered document it to nonetheless like your. It's shedding light on this. Concept that people might have about where they are. All I'm in the south and it's just like that here, and it's like well. Everyone in New York is so Mike Nabo. We all confused awkward and non-committal. I don't know how to. Everyone's bitching about their own cities. A think grass is greener across state lines. There, we spades exact same issues, and just moving out of your city will not solve any of your dating woes I can guarantee you that. Yeah, hundred percent I think that's like the quick fix, right? It's like Oh, if I change and I think if you are truly stock and you WANNA move to another city to reset your life or you WanNa move to another city for another reason by all means you should move not sent. Don't move in. You've ever I think if the people that think that they're gonNA. Just move to another city to solve all the problems. There's just GonNa be the same problems in different form there. I think that's very sound. data to wrap one's head around. Because in general, we are having new conversations that shed light on the realities versus perceived realities is something that I'm very big on at this current moment that I've been evaluating through cove it and my life in general in my thirties, just like what are perceived realities versus facts, because facts matter in my world. And however I been kind of painting a certain picture. That may not be you know. And in what ways has that helped me? Maybe survive cope, and how many ways has kind of been to my detriment and not? Grasp reality for what it is. Sir You know the jury's out on that one so I have concluded. Verdicts for you, but that's stuff that everything I apply both of you because I think you do it with such humor and. Honesty because we we're not going to benefit from like. Putting on rose colored glasses of any of the. As as we know trying to face backs, but you I'm really curious, so you are dating coach. But where did you go to San? Francisco from. I so I was dating coach. In New, York for seven years, and how you Beijing for two years where I also has some dating clients, and I had some clients in La and also Amsterdam randomly. Yes so then coming to San Francisco I also thought that I would pick up my business and. Being here was when I decided I didn't want to be a dating coach. A more because I realized that I did not know what was going on in the day. I could not give any solid sound advice, anybody in San Francisco or anybody during that time, 'cause modern dating has changed so much, and my business was built built upon gender roles bats, knowing my business, and that was back then like this is over a decade ago in new. York City to gender roles are very important, and they're so cut and dry, so it was really easy to I guess not easy, but it was more clear what what I could benefit from in terms of dating dating business, but sense things have really shifted, and since moving to San, Francisco, which really set the foundation For For like modern dating scene I realized that nobody knows how to date.
00:40:08 - 00:45:05
A nobody knows how to navigate through blurred gender roles right, and that's only continuing to get warm, fuzzy right especially with me, too and everything that happened there. Just men are not taking on the scene dominance that they once did because they can't write like there is a lot of that piece. Also women have been evolving so much. Don't necessarily want the same things that they once did so. It's a fascinating time, though because kinda straddling the new end always thinking so sometimes that just kind of results in a lot of confusion. Right absolutely. Oh my gosh. My wheels are spinning so hard right now. Until a further layer at further add complexity and nuance is just I. Mean then we've also been. It's been interesting for me as a podcast to talk about dating in general because the way that I am speaking about. Dating has been very much in this framework of gender roles, but tons of my friends are gay or by, and that is completely irrelevant, or and in certain ways relevant, because even in some homosexual relationships they take on certain gender roles quote unquote right like somebody's the more passive one or the more dominant one. What like? It's all up in the air, so and and there's so many more ways that people date and define their happiness like. It was pretty straightforward. You date to get married and marriage was like this goal or this this. Touchdown Zone that. You're what, but now it's like Nah. I don't want to get divorced in a handful of years in like lose half my assets and deal with attorneys and mental trauma. Shifted you bring up a really good point, which is, we had institutions for love and dating in the past, and even though we may not agree with them. They were a clear path for us, and that's why there wasn't that much turmoil for dating back then, but now because we're kinda like throwing a wrench into these institutions, we feel a little bit directionless and I'm not Saying Saying like marriages institution, everyone should follow, but it's almost like we lost our beliefs in in what we think is true love what we think is dating and merges throwing Oliver, ourselves into a black hole of nothing of just unknown, and even though marriage may be something that people don't want war. What is the alternative and I think that's the stage where it we're all trying to. What is the alternative to marriage, but actually think that's like a beautiful thing I think that's the most positive thing outta modern things like. Gee, you're saying we're like the generation that experience the fallout of divorce rate, so it's made a lot of US gun shy to be in that relationship with the rest of our lives, and we've also seen like terrible things like people cheating on each other all of that so I think that's given rise like ethical non Monogamy Monogamy or like different ways to approach it, understanding that some of this is of course of life in like how to knee, reinvent and make a relationship that works for us that still like maintaining peace and harmony with everyone because I think no one just wants to be hurt and I think that feeling of hurt in relationships is causing us to really challenge what our relationship should even be in relationships, or how can I make relationship that will work for me. I i. Yes, see this is a I think this is where I would disagree I think the this is what's causing the confusion in modern dating the unknowns a what is the beauty of the silver lining is that we are all trying to figure out the other institutions and creating our own traditions that are very different from our parents are in our ancestors, but the last ten years I would say we've been in this lack whole of too many choices where we failed to make any real choices at. Finally come to a place where we're like okay stake in the ground. Let's make some choices now. Yeah, that's definitely the follow for sure of too many options but I think the people that have found their person, or they're calling, or they're multiple people, or whatever they define have made it in a way that works for them opposed to just this pre-k prescribed With With they felt like they had to do it. Totally I think that's so interesting to frame it in that way. Because what makes me think of is the fact that I was listening to your guys recent on, it's the most recent one at the time. We're putting this out, but it was talking about you know. Do you actually want relationship and the the? The fundamental thing that times we neglect to acknowledge in thinking about our standards, our expectations are wishes and desires.
00:45:05 - 00:50:13
Our Vision for what happiness is then. You gotta find someone else who? Who might ideally be on the same page? Is You because if you're on harmony in a relationship, it takes more than one person so yeah. So that's I think another layer of. Just going to be an ongoing rabbit hole. Let's all the ways that relationships are. freaking difficult and Try Not to get stressed out, but like an. That's why it's just fascinating to me because it takes. If you are monogamous relationship, you takes two to tango to find somebody else. WHO's shares that vision of WHO shares those same priorities or willing to compromise or negotiate to a certain degree in order to put in the effort to work with you for a prolonged period of time, and be attractive enough for you to WanNa, bone, and like be intimate would. And like socially adequate that you can bring them around your friends and your family like and explain like this beauty said whatever label you guys are. And the proper genetics antibodies. You know just stuff like that. Yeah exactly? The needle may stock sometimes I agree with that. Sometimes, that's the part that's like. We have all this choice, right? We have all this hypothetic- choice yet for some reason, it feels so difficult to find that person that meets all that criteria and I think a lot of us like I. Think we're not the type to that are like? Oh, they must be six feet taller these all these superficial qualities, but we're even just talking about like basic stuff that you said mentioned bats defied. Yup. But let's start with superficiality, Shall We? Start at the top of the funnel, you will. I mean 'cause we're and to contextualize conversation. We are professional women. That are older. I have quite a few listeners who are younger and is young as high school, and you know twenties and thirties and up, but there's there's a for me personally. I've wanted things I really celebrate at this point is how much I've changed the person. And how much my preferences or standards have changed because it's either my maturity euro or like just where I'm at in life in terms of what I want next or what? I'm ready for has changed am curious. What that's been like for you. in having your relationships because I've I in a nutshell I've been the serial monogamist who had serious Boyfriend Boyfriend after a serious boyfriend to varying degrees of like Oh, we're going to get married like with each one and like really kind of vetting them out in that aspect, but looking back on it. Definitely, each one was a growth phase I had a lot to mature on. Even though at the time I thought I was so grown and like new everything. And my preferences have definitely changed and. I still really do. Not like top priority, but it's up there in the top three I need to be physically attracted to them, and it did not like they all have the same stats ray. I. DON'T THINK I've all superficial though to be. Now to be attracted, that's like baseline because think about it in the reverse like I would never want someone that's like. Oh, well, dating Jewish, she's really fun and interesting, but I'm not attracted to her like I would feel so shitty about. To my grandma, estee into this I. That doesn't even WanNa like be right so. I don't think that's unfair. I mean I've been in situations where I've met someone that's been on paper rate and I just didn't look forward to the dates and member Louis feeling like Kinda, cringe-worthy when it came down like kissing and I'm like this is not how I am. I'm like a super physical touches like my love language like this non happen right and this is not fair to this person. Because there's someone out there that would find. This got super attractive because there was nothing wrong with him. It's More More of just enjoy for me and I think that's important for people to think about. We hear this all the time to on our podcast with people's that they're just trying to get all these. It's a numbers game of how many swipes they can get in. They feel that if they don't get enough inside at the end of the day. Who Cares as long as you find like that person that finds you attractive right the hot, the the the very important distinction, though and Mindy you made this distinction which is. Physical attraction doesn't equate to a type when I think that's when it becomes superficial is that emily attracted to someone six four and above brown hair blue eyes. Racial but having baseline physical attraction that could be all different shapes and sizes of looks, and that's okay as long as you're open, minded to knowing that you can be physically attracted to all sorts of different people yet. It's an older to certainly dated people before my friends were like that person is not unattractive guy, but I found him super attractive right, so that's all that matters right that you get starry-eyed I.
00:50:13 - 00:55:01
Bring this up because I just had a conversation with my grandmother. Call her right now. To Talk to her. I do to get on the phone and I need to have a Korean translator because. I did my very best, and it's honestly like it's funny. How good at Korean I get when there's like motivation to slain myself. Do we to I'm the same way with Chinese. All these big words start coming out. You know you got word. Exactly I was like I. Am so Damn Eloquent Michael. But she was just going on the track and She was kind of I was trying to in butchered. Korean trying to defend like it's not I'm not saying I need you know Brad Pitt. I need somebody that I'm happy to snuggle up with and make babies with and because she was just harping on like I. Don't know if it's because she's worried. Because I'm in my mid thirties and unmarried, and she's just like it doesn't matter you know like it's just about if they're a good person. And they believe in God and you know setting these criteria like bless your heart I, love you. Thank you and I'm trying to be respectful granddaughter, but also like not real. NEEDS TO I'm needs to WANNA. Kiss them. Okay provides me with that group. Chat that you're Bob. Was it you a? Trial. She's on a we chat group for single parents of single kids who are over thirty I. It's just ridiculous and she. They have like these secret. MEET UPS virtual. MEET UPS Friday present photos of their kids and see if anybody is interested in letting. The kids are completely removed from that I'm sure there's something in Korean culture impromptu something like that has one hundred percent yet, but what you're bringing up is exactly what I think about. If I were to go back to my middle school, self right now, or let's say high school self. What would I tell myself I would say stay away from that boy. Because now I see him twenty years later. He is ugly. He's fat. He's like. Times I. Hear? From white from your future self say you're crying over a boy who is the biggest loser twenty years from now, but the to the eighteen year old me or the sixteen year away still had feelings. Those are true feelings, and that was my reality, and this is why you. Are. Elders, you know our parents, our grandparents. They're like seeing it from the future where everyone ugly past age sixty you know like everyone's the same. They look the same, so they're like. Why do looks even matter, but when we still in a stage and I think this is why we're in such a great place in life is. We're still at the age where? We're so attractive. They're still attractive people out there, but we're mature enough. We make money were. This is a really good stage alive, so we should at least joy, the good looking people out there, but I think even when you get old and ugly, I still want to remember being attracted to heart. Are-. So if you're looking at that, let's say you're eighty or whatever you're looking at. That would be like Oh. This is not attractive. You could just remember what they were in their thirties excited. It's a memory right? Yeah, and honestly I this is the perhaps the overly romantic version me like they give the notebook and stuff I, definitely again when I remember recall relationships, and now after the relationship has passed and I don't have that emotional attachment anymore I, do Remember Remember like yeah, when we were in love. Even though empirically objectively not even really like my quote, unquote type if I if I had one and even now I'm like wow, I, don't I'm not attracted to this person X. of mine, but I remember when I was in love and a hat that emotional attachment the sun rose and set on them so I believe that like there's appreciation, and it's not necessarily like 'cause I would like to believe mazes a little. Overly hopeful, but that my my husband for future husband would still find me beautiful or have have that appreciation that love or that desire to down the road when I'm you know knock on wood if I lived to be old and wrinkly and. You know I still on that notebook wave. You guys. I haven't gotten a I. Mean I think it's like you can't help. It can't just be more traction only with Alli not be. There can't be forced because it just doesn't end well anyway for that. Yeah. Absolutely I think the one big difference between men and women is that for women to be physically attracted to a man? It's actually not just physical a lot of in attitude, their personality, their vibe. When you walk into a Bar Stat, say ninety three percent of women notice.
00:55:01 - 01:00:03
A man's is is like what they look like. It's just like the personality that they exude. middling say physical attraction is important. It's still like the entire package. Yeah, thank you. Yes, I mean I think men are more visual. Yes, but we've talked to men in that have met their person or excited about a certain woman is sometimes. It's hard for them to pinpoint exactly what it is about family. We have this one episode. That guy was a. it was her scarf or like. No, it was a gentleman. SCARF, but it was her whole vibe. He felt like was just very confident. Just alluded energy. I think it is just the whole picture overall. Right right and I love that. That's the part of romance that I I am enamored with. It's the x factor because to me, it's You know you can't you can. You can break down criteria or or traits, and you know kind of try to make it into some kind of a formula, but you can't. I love that you cannot it certain magic and at certain Juneau Sekwa or like just a vibe that you get, and that attracts units kind of this magnetic force because I, I basically have posited like you can have two awesome people good good people. Have Great Families and friends, really attractive smart Witty Banter, but there could be zero chemistry you right, and that doesn't mean you're not getting. Dating APPS can be really tough with that. Because you only see photos the right, get that energy and I think there's some people a. Definitely people that I've met that I'm like wow, you look so much veteran sending photos and I could have totally passed you off because of that and I think there's probably people I never met because of that and I. It's so it's so hard to tell like the quality's when you just see like static photo. That's really true. Will I mean now? There's video incorporated into dating APPs, and and I'm curious for both of you like what your experiences with dating apps has been because I feel like the social acceptability of using dating APPs has changed, obviously were well into that where it's a very normal thing now, but once upon a time it was definitely not and now like talking to somebody in person in a public spaces. Like what are you doing? Are you a Predator? It's I, mean even now it's gone up. We saw the stats by bumble and a bunch of the other dating asset like usage has gone up twenty percent interest. People have been matching more messaging through all this quarantine, too. So I feel like if we felt like in person, meeting was declining before Cova Don t league. It's only continue exactly. Yeah, and so I'm curious what your guys experiences has been. Are you an you I? Don't even know I'm sorry. I don't know relationship status. So this is T- that we're spilling I. want to understand what's happening. What's going on? The R I n relationship a monogamous relationship. We've been together for over a year and a half, so I have not been on the APPS for over a year and a half, but we did have a very interesting conversation the other day. Julian I and another person in the dating space, and you're kind of talking about how you know like everyone can meet someone on dating APPs, and it's kind of socially accepted now, but there's just nothing special about it later. Snow story attached to deputy and it. There's something about just Meeting Meeting in a random lace out wild. That makes you feel like that. person's really special. Even though they're not, it makes them feel like your special. It's contextual, so might think the future of dating APPs, and we were kind of brainstorming on what could dating apps do better is creating were best serendipity that could happen real life, and making it happen virtually, so it's not just so sterile like I'll. We matched, and because we have similar interests in swiped on each other. We met up that nobody wants to hear that story. Anymore again before it used to be like you've found your tinder Ella, I right. Now, everyone is found their gender. I, so I have an interesting story or experience with dating apps as I feel like when they first came out, I was single, so I was on tinder I remember thinking. It was like the greatest thing is I had used like match before, and it was kind of like a match. You get this message or send a message or just go to like a black hole because it was all through like Mel more than gender. Instantaneous. I remember when it first came out I was. This is the best thing ever i. have like all these dudes kidding me up and I remember I was super excited like us a message within two seconds of silence show by roommate, and says Dat Dat half. She's like what is that be the? Like! She's like I think.
01:00:03 - 01:05:04
I would have not is joined hinder, but anyways over the there is I feel like I've dated like gone. On Taunton, I eat maybe like first through third dates like there was data from magic way back, but when tinder and like all these more apps came out a really never met anyone that I dated all the people I. Actually dated were through Friends of friends in real life. And kind of gave up on that site to be honest I was like I just don't really feel like they're worthwhile like I go in a lot of dates, but they don't go anywhere, but then after a significant break up of mine I. On the APPS, and was probably one of the first people I matched with it was ended up being boyfriend of mine, and we just like really hit it off, even met like through chatting like I don't know what it was like. We didn't talk on the fall. Do Videos. We really had no idea beyond just tax, but there was something that was very engaging about it and I I remember just feeling super excited to meet him even before we met I went into the date I. Remember I I don't know about you. You've been but for a long time I wouldn't even save people's phone numbers, because unlike the awesome. Actually Liking this I, it is probably so slim, so I might as well not even take extra two seconds to put their number by. Leader. With him though I put his number, my folks I'm like I have a good feeling about this one and I. Like went there. We really hit it off. It was like one of the most magical ever had, and we ended up defeating for like four months, and then he actually had to leave the country Because he lost his visa, so we probably would have kept dating. It was nothing to do with our relationship, but it really did change my perspective on dating apps because we both realized we would never met each other like we had no similar circles of friends or anything like that, so it was one of those situations where actually see the benefits of dating apps that it really gets you out of like your zone and I think one of the benefits of. This whole thing with covid nineteen right now is that I'm hoping that it makes us excited to meet people again because I think that is something that was very much loss on dating outs, and I'm hoping that people do more prescreens, videos and phone calls because nauseous dangerous to meet now days. I'm GONNA work exactly I. Don't know about you, but I'm like I'm making sure that I really. Like, a pretty good chance we're GONNA hit it off before I go risk my life to meet some Rando so I'm like Mike Hope is that you do more of that? pre-screening on both sides and you either realize like. nope, this isn't a match than that saves to people, a lot of time or both people get excited to actually meet in person in. Don't have nearly as many prospects in his nearly as many choices because I think the problem right now is people aren't giving each other enough time. Like you mean like. Presence and attention and investment. Is that what you mean by time that in I think that has actually been a shift over this period is that people have a lot more time with presence in connections, and we can go into the some more depth I. think it's been a mixed bag in terms of dating, but I think in terms of like friends and family all out. There's been a lot more. That timing connection, but I think I'm in also like okay well. We didn't have everything that I'm looking for my checklist. After three times I'm just GONNA. move onto the next person 'cause I have like five date scheduled this week. anyways, so if you're meeting people, it might be like the kind of unfolds little more naturally. Get to know people opposed to like finding one tiny thing that being onto the next right I mean I really liked that and I. Just in general I think the overarching. Recognition of! Shifting priorities in general whether or not, you're in a dating relationship mindset, pre cove, it or dirt leading into it I think naturally because of the state of humanity. I would be surprised if people have not at this point, right, we're like almost three months into. At least you know. In California were like three months into having much more time alone and more free time and limited interaction with other people in person lends itself to being like who do I actually want to see? How do I like to spend my time? What's actually important to me? What's worth risking my health for or risking my family's health? You know what I mean so in general. I think it's just a reevaluation of self, but also relationships and I'm I love that positive? Spin on it because.
01:05:05 - 01:10:01
I align with that I always think that there's going to be bad eggs, no matter what the situation is. Oh, yeah! And there's irresponsible people who will not change pandemic or not will not shift that, but for the larger I think the people live faith in humanity about they're going to definitely be like doing a lot of what you're saying I think that's a very. Good hypothesis and for me, like I was saying I like the monogamous I would always have serious boyfriend after series boyfriend and there was like a point in my life in my late Twenties early thirties that I'd gone to a really really gnarly break up with somebody that I really loved, and it just wasn't working out and I recognize like I've never had time to. Date, then concept even like and that's why I'm curious. How it existed for you guys, and then how you think that it's morphed now and we started talking about that at the time i. mean like dating. What did that even mean? I didn't even know what constituted dating. Does that mean okay? You meet up and you have conversations. You have like a physical connection. Not necessarily hooking up does hooking up equate dating. I don't think so like no hooking up is hooking up. That's not dating right. And I had figured that out like really quickly with the dating world. You know it's so interesting because I feel like we're always looking to lake, dash the current, but I remember like when match batch dot com came out, or should say when it came out because it came out a long time ago, but when I started using it. I think that was in my like. Mid Twenties and I remember being like Oh my God. This is what it's like to go on a date, because like the nine when leg take me to dinner Novi, like very formal, where before be like going out to our and like meeting some dude in hooking up in that to me does not include dates right, but with an interesting is it went from like super informal to more formal now it's kind of like a hoggish Ford. Flight, there's. Still going on those formal dates, there's people that are just hooking up. There's people that are hanging out like younger generations, apparently like sending a snap or like a tick tock videos dating so I think it's like the definition is so all over the place. Exactly there's there's no definition in my opinion. The definition is what ever you and your partner decide is a definition I think that's why de tr was so big when it first came out. 'cause people need a some clarity. They need to get on the same page with what a relationship is and defining their situation ship, but even okay. This is something I've always struggled with to. It's like when you're. Let's say you're. Dating someone but you haven't defined the relationship, but you haven't has gone one day. Would you say that you're dating? Man Like that feels like it sounds like you're interrelationship of or not. It's all a gray area. But? Can we be honest here or maybe it's just me when you're dating someone you know, and when you're not really dating selling you of know that too like I, remember. I went on six or seven dates with this guy through a period of like three months at by never felt like we were dating in Hollywood were hey, now a felt like it was very casual. We never really got deepen our relationship. Even though if you were just looking at frequency, you could say well. That's that's pretty decent way of saying that they're dating so I think he just no. Point in a lot of times like the best er conversations are when it's so obvious that you've already been dating in your Oh. Yeah, we're. Of course we're day like I. Remember ex-boyfriend Mine like we were just like walking down the street. He's just like you're my girlfriend. Right like it was so nonchalant. I am so. It wasn't like a discussion right because it was already there I, think those are the ones that always seem to fail to it's. It's not super clear in them. One person's brings it up. The other person's like wait will. Right and I think that's a that. I think we should regroup and have a whole. Episode of because, let me tell you from from that multiple times. I've been inbetween boyfriends and done the dating thing I have. In. My opinion dated guys and gotten some interesting feedback on their end. Like how does this not constitute dating I'm not saying you're my boyfriend, but in my mind. It was like I knew, but that's what I also learned very very. Soundly to not assume that and that it does. Warrant a conversation. That's what adults do. That's what Russian. Who respects you and a person who respects themselves does versus what I allowed to happen where Peterle not just once, but repeatedly to just like sit in the gray area, not WanNa rock.
01:10:01 - 01:15:15
The boat feeling mad onward self-conscious. Even though it's like to me, all arrows pointed to like were dating. We hang out multiple times a Week Week we hook up. We text me every day. You Good Morning. Whatever like all these things to me? Cues at indicate dating okay. I'm not saying we're exclusive. Boyfriend girlfriend and meet your family right now, but when I then I had the guts, and either actual courage to bring it up to said person they'd be like or just like. We're kicking it now like excuse me. We'll know there's guidelines anymore right because like some people could text every day just because they're war right exactly. especially with Cova nineteen like we people ask all the time like. Oh, I went on in our zoom date with him night, never heard from him again. It's like well time at this point doesn't mean anything, but I do think people aren't going to start to define the relationships a lot more in have more of these discussions because of covid nineteen inches because of health in like the fact that they're going to have to wear before. It was a lot more ambiguous because we didn't have to deal with that. Right I would like to give people the benefit of the doubt that they they know they only know what they know. which in this case or any of these cases? People's definition of what is dating could be. It's solely dependent on what they think dating is from their pass. No meaning to him is dating in his mind or Seeing someone three days in a row is a relationships for someone else I. Think this is so why you were saying is like it's so important to have these conversations when you're partnering up with someone, even if it's not exclusive, just announcing pain, I remember dating someone. My boyfriend in Beijing and I've talked about this before. We had very different. Definitions of cheating is. I always thought it was very black and white, but when he kind of brought out why he thought something was not cheating for example swipe on dating apps without acting upon it without without meeting up. He didn't think that was cheating, but to me. That was cheating, but we never I- faulted him for what was my standards in what I knew not what he knew. How do you? How do you justify the Ivan in sticky similar sticky situations with dating relationships and biggest relationships and with series boyfriends, because that's where I do think criteria and definitions matter right and I've I've been on the receiving side of that to right that I've been caught in my own hypocrisy of like well. You know like I say a certain thing, but I kind of act to another, and how how do we set a standard? Though because to me I agree with you you if like someone swiping while they're in a relationship, yeah. No OUTTA here. No, that's cheating. You know what I mean like you're introducing. Whatever risks in tation communication you're also publicly putting if you're on a dating APP your to whoever is interacting with your profile, letting them assume that you're available to be had so I could go on about this. I can make my little. But. How how how I mean the you are the relationship coach. How would you walk through yourself and your? Your exit that point like how you walk through that I think everything has to come from a place of love, so the first thing I did was not come from a place of love, but from a private place of pride. I was like you motherfucker if my co worker C- on this fucking dating APP and they think that you're cheating on me. I'M GONNA. fucking kill you. I mean that's like how I spoke to. Well. I guess we're done. In hindsight, looking back at the situation because I never been something like that I. Think One. You just have to be really empathetic. I wanted to understand I leader when I settled down, I really want to understand what was going through his head. And culturally you have to understand textually the changes all the definitions, a lot of married men are dating APPs in China knocked cheating, but purely for attention, and when you, when other women seeing you a local women, the first question they ask you is. Are you available or are you just looking? How that's! That was really fascinating to me. Because even on a dating APP when you see someone photo doesn't necessarily mean they're available. It just means it's just there there purely for Hannity swipes or whatever it may be and he has been. He's not Chinese was born in China, but he had been in China for over ten years, so it was already really deeply ingrained in him into him. He had he had done anything wrong to me. He had basically cheated on like basically. Yes slams. At that was already I already made up my mind, so this is this is the conversation we always encourage. Couples have even in situations where let's say one person brings up a fetish that you think is absolutely weird disgusting what you should shun away your partner first and foremost you have to come from a place of empathy in love an ask.
01:15:15 - 01:20:01
What is it about? This turns you on, and you have to kind of. Swarm Emmy relationships dance. Right and you have to just dance your way to a place to dance routine that you feel really comfortable with, and if you are not ultimately comfortable, then you have to get out of the relationship, but it's not about faulting your partner. It's more about just learning more about your Parker. And yourself to I think it's like having your boundaries. In that in that what you're saying? I think there's also the empathy and love for yourself that like. If you're really not okay with it to be okay, because I've been in positions where I would over compromise my own self in order to please the other person trying to cater to what and that gets really dicey. Jeff can't do that, but I think one of the most fascinating things we've done in our podcast to like we're going back to early dating is we've had these kind of life? He said she said interviews like about a d like we did one that was an exit interview, and it was basically this guy that had gone on like hundreds of states that didn't go anywhere, and he didn't know why, so we called up like his past defeats in all of them. He wanted to see again in all of them felt like he didn't Want Want to see them again. It was just one of those crazy mismatch perceptions and I think what we've learned over. This is that people interpret things very very differently, and someone could walk out of a date. Being like that was the best data. My life in other people are like what the hell in. That's why. I think there's so many hurt feelings in That's That's why people ghost and that's. Why like we have situations where immune more extreme is like? We have someone that thinks that this type of Swiping is Oh Cain, the other that doesn't so. I think it really does come down to all of our personal, a personal perceptions, but where you can get an a level up dating, is you do take that step back In In try to be empathetic of the other person in Phnom is those assumptions and I'm not saying that you should sacrifice yourself by any means, but it might be giving the benefit of the doubt wants or something. Yeah, he's making it vocal. What your expectation is and then seeing how they come through, because no one's a mind reader. We can't expect people to be. On your revered like speak into the person that I mean I've gone through so many relationships I'm just read. This is a very. Also reason conversation with my therapist recognizing. Perceived reality of myself, which is that I'm a good communicator and I'm mixing that up because when it comes to public speaking if we're on a PODCAST, if I'm talking with friends I, do think I'm a good communicator I. Think I can get my thoughts out pretty clearly, I you know if I have an emotion like I can convey that however, caveat relationships when it comes to. The most tender part of my heart, and the thing that can be hurt the most the quickest. And the most long lasting. Not so much. You know like that's that's taking. That's composed. Feel like segmenting yet to really look at. You can't just like across the board. Be Like I'm a great communicator operate under that mindset and assume that like I'm a great communicator, so if something goes wrong here, that's your bad because I'm good. and. It's been very sobering for me very humbling for to say the least to say okay. Yeah in this area I i. do think a strong communicator can always improve, but here actually not so good because I have held a lot in. I've definitely been guilty of the like wanting the might partner to be a mind reader, or just like coerce it out of me or Quote Unquote to do that, and and just assuming like okay well, you didn't even ask, and then that of the person would be like well. You didn't volunteer that like other relationships, you offer it and Mike. That's not my job, and then it comes to expectations right like gender roles expectations what you were influenced by culturally etc, like I'm waiting for. Prince on a white horse to like. Save the day and save me and all the things and I'm like as a grown woman now like honey, no owner. Will I know that I agree with you? I think that's actually how I've evolved the most over Mike I. Guess Dating Life If you WanNa call it that I think a lot of it has to do with the podcast just because we've heard all these different like perception stories, and how different people view different things and I realized that people really don't view things the same at all. You can never you can never go into a relationship.
01:20:01 - 01:25:00
I think the hardest part is going in in recognizing that you view things one way in the other person you're forming something with operates completely differently and I. Think the part I've struggled with the boasts over. My life is like communicating my needs and what I in relationship and I had I actually recently ended a relationship over this quarantine period. It was from an Exa mine from five Years Years ago we broke up like four years ago and rekindled our relationship over this quarantine to see if we can make it work and one of the things that we was really great actually about quarantine that forced us to have a lot of conversations and not be together physically, so we really just put it all out on the table, and I remember being like. Wow, you've got it really good then it's like yeah I've been your podcast. But I is something that I struggle with. We're I together. Because I didn't know how to I, didn't even know what my needs were yet. aloke yeah! In Nanna I expected him to be a mind reader. I expected him like you were saying to like. pull away in him. No them angrier. Something opposed. Just being like this is what's going on for me and I also think I always thought of it. Being like conflict was I'd in if we if I, raised my needs of. He didn't agree with them that we would just end where I think what I've learned over doing Dana. Ball is that conflict is inevitable like these are two different people that are. Coming to a relationship have different views like we're gonNA see things differently as I was mentioning. It's howdy work without person to become conflict. Yeah. That's true. Who Many I don't know what's your? What's your situation right now? My situation is I I'm not I. Guess What would be defined as fresh, but I ended a serious relationship in December and it was a two year. Relationship in we lived together is is very serious than there was a lot of ups and downs a lot of really really good things and a lot of really challenging things, but at the end of the day. You know it was all to be. Matured right like for me to face a lot of really. Unsavory but also like learning how to truly love myself. It's all right, I think that's what. You know the mature centered person me can look back at every relationship including this last one and be like. Yeah, that's what it was four Not have bitterness and pain, but then that was six months ago. So it's been it was. It's rough, but I weirdly felt like quarantine. Daytime just to be isolated and to be on my own and to learn how to be alone again but every break-up in every relationship is so different like I'm in my thirties now right and I feel like my My needs have changed Julian right there with you. In terms of being clear with myself about what I need. Because that was something I learned in the last relationship was to articulate that and to accept that I was changing in the in the course of the relationship. I was not the same girl walking in i. mean there are certain things that I cringe at when we first started when I first got into that relationship where my mind was at, but that's where I was at I'm also accepting that you know that, right? What can you do about it? Like it I made mistakes and I just was like trying to be truthful to myself. The other person didn't like certain things. They did like certain things. We were both just like head over heels. So when you're in that head space in that emotional state, yeah, a lot of logic and practicality just lies out the freaking window, so I don't know man I'm I'm definitely. Really. Thinking of relationships for sure dabbling in the I've been in the APP space and just ends money to be back in that Rodeo. Horrid, Dan, you're hitting a really interesting time chair. I mean I admit that I haven't been super. Because I was working through a pass relationship, but in the last couple of weeks I've been back. An aunt I've been dipping my toe in I think I'm like everyone's worst nightmare right now, because only match with you and I won't chat back. There and I'm like I'm everything that I hate but of doing it. I get it. I again, empathizing with those people so excited I like someone I really like in. They don't hit me back up. Dealing with something they are yeah. They're. Exactly but I think one of the things that we're hearing right now. With deep gaps is very fascinating. This quarantine has given people a Lotta time to simmer which has been great. I think I don't know by you, but like.
01:25:00 - 01:30:08
After a break of I've definitely taken that time to the alone and but now everyone's forced to do that If you've never done that before, and you've never done the exercise of you just did it by default, because I knew it admits sitting with your emotions especially, if you're like living alone or with roommates that you're not super digging like that can be really intense for all, but I think that's actually when the best south were happens so again, my hope is that like the cream of the crop will rise out of the quarantine because they've done that southwark. People say like Hey I'm ready for a relationship like this has given the light of how important relationships are in the four. Maybe I thought my business. My I don't know like bar life or whatever it was the most important thing to me and I've realized that it's not so I think there are those people in that I think is like the people that I don't know if you've seen that I've I've had people like asked me to hang out, and I'm like we barely talked in. Haven't done a video challenge on risk my life to meet you, so there's the people that have evolved through this to probably the same at the end of the day sixty knew it. It's finding the right people. I'm hoping that more and more of them are gonNA come out devolved. I love you Julie I think that's such an optimistic end very gracious way to put it. And ultimately I agree with you. There's definitely some dumb ass. People I'm going to say. Because I judged. Talk I'm like. If you're tournament up with me so fast I'm not the only one you're trying to do this to one hundred percent. And I. Ask them like so because I say no well actually even before I say no because I'm gonNA. Say No, but I'm like Oh. Have you been meeting of with people and they're like? Yeah. I mean here in there, and like, and it's so true I appreciate the transparency. Look like I'm glad you're honest at least yeah, but you just you dumb like. And then we've heard of people totally being like I'm giving up until this resolves because. It's interesting. There was a stat. dating APPs ships that more women are using dating apps right now than then improbably because men can't get laid for eight months not to generalize, but that is a piece of it and the emotional connection that women are looking for, and what they said though is, this is the opportunity for real relationship minded men to really rise up because there might be more or less less. Work less competition for them, and they can see it, and it's also the opportunity for women to have some of the people need it out by default, but then we have also heard of people that are just like. What's the point of I'm never gonNA beat someone like it's GonNa. Be like a black hole to their swipe. Only get that side, too so it's very interesting. Time in stole a lot of confusion, I think the children really enter new formal absolutely I agree. It's IT'S GONNA. Be I mean there's a lot of other things as well where I was explaining just my mental capacity in general in life, my mental and emotional capacity, because that in general has become the thing that I have to check in on yeah much more frequently than I used to write, and so as I'm doing these temperature checks. Thankfully I think the silver lining is my tolerance for bullshit has continued to go down and the book that to me is a good sign, because and that's just that's life. You know you go through experiences so that you can learn what you don't like. It further carves out what you do like. When it appears before you can identify a pretty damn fast Yes, sign me up, but. Otherwise I just feel like you know. There's been a lot of just political cultural turmoil that I care a lot about, and that is something that affects me and I I'm active in the Asian American community. We just had Asian heritage month, and I had a lot of stuff going on for that and so in general. Like taking a step back to recognize. Pay Wherever. You're at on top of the fact that we're in pandemic and everything like where you're at adding prioritizing dating itself in terms of what he'll take out of you in the greater scheme of things like that's okay and I. I love Julia. You said that when you like Swipe on people and you don't take it as personally anymore because you're like. Oh, You're You're just you're just not there like you're just young. Have thing that you're dealing with I. Feel the same way and I'm giving myself that I'm telling you. This has been the best time for self love to respect my own time. My own energy because I have such little energy to give to like some nonsensical idiot, who's like down to risk my life and? For a stupid hookup like get out of here. Soft the beginning that everyone was all about dating APPs in going on Video Dietz, and I think it was like when things were first starting out in overtime, it started client a bit and I think at first it was like well.
01:30:08 - 01:35:02
This is such an optimal time to dating everyone so focused, but we do have to remember that there is a pandemic happening, and there's a Lotta Shit going on in the world in. It's okay if you're not, they are either like if you don't want this to get your search for love, there is a lot of virtual season ways that you can kind of adapt if you're just need a break, like be okay with that, and that's fully fine. For sure this has been such in inciteful time for people to come to terms with the fact that they were dating as a form of distraction and I think this is. Coming calming down and just being in the peace and quiet at home is a great way to come to that realization and I. always equate it to like going to a concert an and then juxtapose that with going home and being home alone and just having that like reading in your years I think that's what the first month felt like for a lot of people where each like oh I used to have so many I was swiping Blah Blah and then after the first month. I think people really calmed down and said actually I don't really need that in my life. Just a distraction and this is a good time to find more clarity. I love that and I hope we don't go back to the old way of day. Because there I mean as much as they're like we're Kinda. We're Kinda Guy. Going full circle from the beginning of this conversation like there is viewed in modern a people can create the relationships they want, but there is a lot of reasons why people are like wandering Jennings. The worst modern dating sucks because there's a lot of bullshit that's involved too so I feel like if we can now. Create the type of dating experience want like. Would we go back to the past when people are going out with all these people that they can't keep track of and ghosting left and right. That wasn't ideal either and I think we can't forget that, and it's time that we just create. We want to create. I love you guys. I on. Like I. had such a like wonderful therapy session of so many things and. I just really appreciate that you guys take the time to record an investigate, and and get you know experiential anecdotes that really ring true with. The like it's the tough stuff. It's a great stuff, I mean I could go on for days and days and days about how wonderful it is to just connect with somebody or be attracted to somebody, and have that little twinkle in your eye, because you have a crush, or whatever like there's so many great parts since so it's not just like. Should all over it right, but it is is a tough thing, because I think you're putting something extremely valuable on the line, and that's your heart in your time in your feelings, so it's not you know to take it lightly. In the fact that you guys invest so much energy into having these narratives or like the end evolving narratives, because it's not a stagnant thing, it's like in and of itself it's very culture driven situation. I just appreciate that you guys have this podcast and he has getting such great guests like Mattison. I really WANNA. Listen to that episode. Because I'm reading his. G. Will have big. Exit Only my God? That's that's. But I think that it well, it's like at the end of the day. We wouldn't okay. Dating isn't is sometimes very challenging right, but he ended the day. The the end result is so beautiful when you do have that relationship I know even for myself. Even the relationships that haven't works out like those are some of my fondest memories of my life. Is a reason why go through all of this right so I think if we can help. People realize that they're not as a loan in change their perspective. That's the best way the kind of doubt to dating and get to that in Germany that. You're going through. I love it before we before we close out episode. I do really like you. You've been such a wonderful supportive to Julian, dating journeys, and I'm curious because you're the one that is partnered up and I'm really curious to put that out. There is a lot of people who listen who are in quarantine with their significant other, or they're in a serious relationship, maybe not quarantine by curious like what? What is your takeaways been for being in a relationship in this moment? And how do you think that? I mean what is you wish for hope for in the future? I. Really have learned so much relationships I think this has been an incubator for our. Ways what I've really learned. Is that the first step you should do in anything is to observe. Don't judge. Don't act just observe and in the conflicts that we've had throughout this time like all the couples have.
01:35:02 - 01:40:07
The, what I've really observed is as soon as you start feeling like the resentment resentment is building war. You're feeling uncomfortable about the situation due to not the current situation, but through past events. That's when you really need to address it. Because I think like what happened before the quarantine was for a lot of couples. If something starts bubbling up, you can easily just walk away or go to work or do something to distract you the now you're in this focus time with each other, and you really can't do that. There is no out. You can't escape, so you really have to address at address. Some of this presented building before it gets to the building part. A lot of couples are suffering from what I think is what I made a mistake doing in the beginning of our relationship with just wanting the quarantine to go smoothly at the expense of addressing some are deeper issues, and you know, and then towards the end starts building up, and then it just makes it worse, so what I've really learned from this experience as. Resentment building the ultimate ultimate detriment to any relationship. Amen to that one shaving. Again I second and third and. I think that's that's really powerful and I I. Do I think in my sit being single, there have been moments of loneliness where I did envy. You know having a companion having a company that I can cut up within feel soothed by, but it's always kind of grass is greener thing, and it is really tough. You know some people can look at that and be like. Oh, I don't have anybody to. Hug and kiss, but it's like yeah, you also don't have someone to argue with and be like. Why do you do it that way? Everyone is struggling in different ways like parents are struggling like there's just people that are haunting with their family of different struggles like literally. I think you said it well. The grass is greener so when you're feeling down. I think it's good again to have that perspective that it's not always one hundred percent for someone else either Ryan and. We'll be talking about this topic a little bit more when you come on our show, but I always live by the rule that much rather be lowly by myself than lowly in a relationship. Is, really, that's the worst feeling in the world. Yes, absolutely it, it's a lot and as we mentioned earlier, you know we continue to change his people, and that's going to be always kind of like a tough thing to navigate because you don't know what your future versions gotta be. So the only thing you can really do, as Cliche as it is, and I think we're learning ad nauseam right now in quarantine is. Be Now, be here now like in and you know have visions like I'm also try not to cut myself off from like having hopes or dreams or visions or I think the word expectations can be a tough thing to to just sometimes because that can become a slippery slope but like yeah, I have aspirations of how I want things to be, but really all we can do is focus on here now and try to lay the bricks in front of us as Well as we can cause I'm like Yo. I can't go down that rabbit hole right now. I'll just spiral not. Absolutely will all be okay. I appreciate you so much end. Can you please plug again your podcast and where people can listen in follow you guys. Yeah I mean pretty much any podcast player like apple podcasts, spotify stitcher radio, rich stitcher radio overcast were pretty much on any podcast up, and you can also go to our website. dateable PODCASTS DOT, com or at dateable podcast on instagram. Some do you to play your personal or just? Go to go straight to the PODCAST? You! Can I don't know the personal instagram? Gases enough. I love this laser. Focus. I love it. I appreciate you both so much. This was like one of the most fun conversations I've had in a while and I love that with two amazing smart women who have so much to share with the world, so thank you for having us on it. We can't mate to have your Nour's. They used to be really fun. Yeah, conversation and Yet has we'll have more I swear. This is like the beginning. Of Many I'm like oh DDR talk. Before. We start another hour. We'll close this episode out, and if you enjoy this up, so please do share it with a friend. We covered some real I i. am like I'm going to be sitting in this one for a while, because there's a lot to digest and in a great way, so if you were inspired educated whatever that cliche with a friend, because there's so much more to to dig into this topic and can never have enough time but thank you to Marvin you my audio engineering producer.
01:40:07 - 01:43:14
Thank you talk. Athena for use Of Of Her Song Yellow Ranger for the intro. Thank you to Jennifer Chung for her Song I. Forgive You. I'm sorry. It's a gorgeous new song. I hope you'll listen to it. That is our song for the Altro and hope you enjoy it I'm a proud member of the potluck podcast collective, which is collective of Asian American podcasters storytellers. Please go check out. All of the other podcasts are some really funny, hilarious, meaningful content out there, and yeah, you can find me on all this. All the podcasts platforms as well so look if you WANNA talk. Email me first of all pod dot com follow me at first of all pot, or you can fall my personal page to at Manji. That close up is episode of first of all. Thank you again, you a and to Julie for being amazing guests and go check out their podcast. Move. To ask for more. Sorry. Kathy Kim Steve Let's go on. Tell me what do you know about K dramas oh? They have something to do with the drama that comes from K. Cup coffee pots. Because you know they're bad for the environment. Oh, YOU MEAN KOREAN DRAMAS! Yeah, I know that they are very grounded in reality though that's actually the opposite of what happens. It sounds like you don't know anything about Cajun's. I was just guessing that's actually perfect. Remember will fill Joanna DECARAVA podcast. They saw boys over flowers. Yes, and people apparently listen to it and one of the season, but we'll fill are still coming from that season. Oh, my God, okay I did hear they tried to give themselves Amnesia a K. drama thing. Yeah, pretty much so are you guys down to help out the new season of the Korean drama podcast, so we're going to be watching a K. drama this time which one secret garden from twenty ten? It was a big hit, and if you're down, check out the Korean drama podcast, at Korean Drama Pot Dot Com. Am I gonNA see Asana Towel Buns the dateable podcast is part of the FROLIC podcast network find more podcast love at frolic dot media slash podcast. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on Instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag an any post with a Hashtag. Stay dateable. Entrust us. We look at all those then head over to our website. DATEABLE PODCAST DOT COM. There you'll find all The The episodes as well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums also downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast Google. Play overcast stitcher, radio and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.