From getting over an ex to starting a new relationship, we're turning the tables as Yue interview Julie this time around. We're unpacking it all: why dating is so much harder than making friends, knowing when it's time to end a relationship that isn't working, staying friends with an ex (or cutting the cord), starting the podcast, and finding love – on the apps – in the time of Corona..
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BONUS: Yue Interviews Julie
00:00:00 - 00:05:18
This episode is made possible by our sponsor happy brain podcast. This won't be news to you, mental health is important. Your mental well-being sets a tone for your love life. And if you're not in a good mental state, dating won't be so enjoyable. However, mental health can seem so healthily sometimes. So this will be news to you. There is a way to improve your mental health and actually have fun doing it. That's where the happy brain podcast can help. In less than 15 minutes, Heather parody explores outside the box ways to not only improve your mental health but have a freaking great time doing it. Some of my favorite episodes talk about hypnosis, why you should create an alter ego, and what the heck a laughter club is. You'll have to listen to find out. I've also found some of the episodes to be great icebreakers on dates. So who says the conversation around mental health has to feel like a massive chore, search for the happy brain podcast with Heather parody today and start making your mental health journey and your brain a little happier.
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the dateable podcast. We are still in the bonus season before we kick off season 14. And last week, Julie interviewed me and we had so much fun that this week we're turning the tables around and I get to interview miss Julie Kraft kick herself of a little nerve sighted. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little nervous. Nervous slash excited for anyone. They're kind of they kind of go hand in hand. We've had so many community members reach out with their own questions. I've gotten a few private DMs with people who want to protect their identity and they want to know what's up. And I think ultimately we've never done this before, and it's just a really fun way to show you all our journey and show you our why, our why of why we're doing this podcast. So we're going to turn the tables like I said, I'm going to interview Julie, but before we get to that, we had just a crazy week just want to quickly touch upon it. Oh, yes. This viral sensation, west elm Caleb was dropped into our laps, basically, and all of a sudden we became the experts on west Caleb. For anyone living under a rock, west of Caleb exploded on TikTok, it was one woman that kind of started it up saying that she had gone out with this guy, Caleb, and he worked at west dobb, heads the dick Dave, and he did the things that unfortunately happened a little too much in modern day. I believe there were dick pics involved. There was a lot of love bombing. There was ghosting at the end and what became the phenomenon is that just women layered on about this experience that they also had with west elm Caleb. It would really be a fascinating. Is that married women were layering God? And it was not even the west on Caleb, but basically the west elm Caleb that embodied all west on Caleb's the universal Caleb. The universal douchebag we've all dated, and maybe the universal douchebag. We've all been at some point in our lives, but the most ridiculous part of this story to me was that the original woman who posted about Caleb wasn't even speaking of this west elm Caleb. It wasn't the right Caleb. The right Caleb and she's the one that broke the news and united all these women who had dated the same guy, but she was not part of that harem of women who did the same guy. And okay, so we were first interviewed for NBC News, and then we got re quoted in New York Post. And then most recently, we went on CNN headline news y'all CNN headlines to talk about west Caleb. I mean, I just wanna say thank you west of Caleb for helping get you away at I but no. I think it actually was, it's just fascinating because I really think west on Caleb basically embodies what's broken with modern dating and I think that's why people had such a rash like feeling towards what was going on and people could really relate because they've had this happen to them. So yeah, it was definitely a whirlwind. We got up at initially see it, I did not realize that you ate and I were on the West Coast so they proposed four 30 a.m. for the 7 30 a.m. slot of the east coast and we luckily got bumped to 6 45 PST, but it was definitely an early Sunday, but very exciting. We got up, did it? I'm really happy with the way it came out, especially for that early on a Sunday morning. This whole thing has been just so fascinating taking this look into it. And I think it really has caused the two of us to dig a little deeper too of why is everyone so obsessed with west elm Caleb and what does this mean for modern day day and why did it become the phenomenon became? So that kind of relates to the first question I'm going to ask Julie, because I'm not expecting all the press outlets to ask us this question.
00:05:19 - 00:10:02
Do you think Caleb deserve this? Oh my God, that's my first question. I love it. Yes, in no. I know that's not a good answer. One of the problems with modern dating is that no one holds anyone accountable. What person I've ever wrote in to dateable a long time ago being like, thank you for making me not be a garbage you would be gone. Yes. And that has stuck with me for a while because there's no repercussion. No one is gonna catch you in, you know, this whole thing with TikTok is so fascinating because the whole beauty of data gaps is that it really is people outside of your network that it allows you to meet other people you wouldn't come in contact with. But kind of the reverse is that there's no accountability, right? Because you'll never cup a contact again with them. And TikTok totally broke through that and gave this guy accountability. So for that I like it and I do think that it was deserved in that sense that we just can't keep excusing bad behaviors, whether that's women or men, but I think men we've been giving this boys will be boys excused for way too long. So I'll say that. Did he deserve to be kind of like canceled and ousted? I don't know because I do think people just like layered on their own personal Caleb's weren't really him. We were just saying the first woman it wasn't even the same person that everyone else was talking about. So, yeah, I think it definitely blew up. That being said, we don't really know what repercussions it's caused for him in a week or a month. This might have totally blow over and also even if it doesn't, there's always gonna be someone that thinks they can change this person. So it may or may not really impact his life. I don't know. That's still kind of verdict is out. I don't believe he lost his job or anything. I know in the past cancellations have resulted in that. I feel like that might have been too brutal. If we found out that wessam Caleb is wanting to come on our show to clear his name, would you want him on the show? Oh, hell, yeah. Hell yeah. I would love to have him on this show. And I think we wouldn't attack him because a dateable that isn't what we do. I think we try to understand the why. And likely, I mean, I'm not excusing his behavior. I don't want to say that in any way. He was 25 years old. A few years out of college. My guess is he just isn't ready to be at a long-term committed relationship. Should he have been more transparent? Absolutely. Should he have bombed and then ghosted? No, that's not the right way to go about it. But I'm sure there's things that are going on for him. Like we learned from confessions of a ghoster when we had that episode that most of the time ghosting doesn't have to do with the other person on the other side. It's the fact that the ghoster is unable to confront emotions and be emotionally in tune enough to have difficult conversations. That avoidant behavior and speaking of avoidant behavior. So Julie, you've done most of your dating in San Francisco. How long have you been in San Francisco now? Yes, I've been in San Francisco. Oh my God, I like him losing track. I believe, I think I just hit like 12 and a half years, I believe. That is a long time and that kind of makes you a local. And when we first started the podcast, it was about dating in San Francisco. So in your 12 years of dating in the city, how do you think the dating scene has changed from the moment you arrived? You know, I don't think the dating scene has changed as much as I've changed. And a lot of daters are kind of on the same boat. I'm of course there's different nuances that have come up. But I think I'm looking at myself when I started dating at 25 to even 35 to even 37 is the way I met my current partner. I've changed so much in that time that the way I viewed dating and interactions on dating apps have just dramatically shifted and also just I really believe that at the end of the day dating is a reflection of yourself and what you believe you deserve, your confidence levels, all of that, and I can see from what I was 25, I just either was not in the place to have a committed long-term relationship or I didn't believe I was worthy. And when you were 25 in San Francisco, how are you meeting people to date? So a couple ways. I think when I first moved here, I definitely was meeting people more out and about in bars. It wasn't totally for it for someone to come up to you at a bar. I will say I don't think many of the resulted in actual relationships.
00:10:02 - 00:15:12
But also Friends of Friends. I did have a lot of people that I met that way. And when I was 25 and coming here, honestly, dating wasn't my first priority. It was establishing a life in a new city. And sometimes a byproduct of that was going out and just meeting people more organically and naturally. So that would probably be at the very start. I would say probably around 27, I shifted to be a little more intentional. I remember two of my friends had signed up for match dot com because you know they were kind of sick. I think we sometimes have amnesia that IRL is the best way to beat people because I remember so many times we'd be people at bars and it would go nowhere or they were just for hookups. Or you would know nothing about this person that you would learn enough and you're like, this is not someone I would never like. 5 kids. They're like ten years younger than me. You know, there's so many different things. I think it's interesting because dating apps have just shifted the information. It's like you learn everything up front and then you see your attracted, where in the past it was, are you attracted? Okay, now let me learn everything. So I'll say that it was interesting because I remember two of my best friends here signed up for match dot com because they were ready to start meeting someone people to actually go on dates with. And I did the same. I think some of it was that I also hit a point that I was ready to go on more adults like dates in start to be you know, I think it was I remember doing early dates on day on match dot com and being like, wow, I'm actually at dinner having this conversation with somewhat opposed to an actual date. Getting drunk at a bar. Yeah, and it seems so foreign, but I think it's ironic, actually, that people think the apps don't help with that now. But I saw it as just the opposite back of the day. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you've met people, both IRL and online through dating apps. But I think many people would consider you to have mastered the art of human connection when we first met you were doing your startup called 500 brunches where you connected people with like minded interests over brunch. I can memorize that slogan. Every day. Wow. The frantic worked. That's how we met. And my first impression of you was, wow, she's very extroverted, and she is passionate about connecting people. And not only did I feel that way, you proved it after we became a closer friends, you showed me all of your other friend circles. And for anybody who doesn't know Julie, it is so interesting to me that she has a group of very close girlfriends who are all Asian and they all went to the same college. And Julie's like the outlier, but she's so close to them and this is like unfathomable in today's world to break into a friend's circle that's so close who are also college friends. And then she's got this other group of her own college friends and she's got her San Francisco crew too. So you have such diverse range of Friends. How do you think? So two questions. One is how would you define a human connection? And two is how do you think you've become so good at it? Yeah, that's interesting, 'cause I will say, I think friendship has always come easy to me. Dating not as much, which is part of the catalyst of wanting to do this with you in the first place. So I think the first part is friendship is always come easy to me. What do I think defining human connection is? Is relating to other people? It's like such a big aspect that it's I can think of all the different ways to define it. But what is the actual defining words? I think it's how can you feel like you belong somewhere ultimately. You know, whether that's with one other person or a group of people, that connection forms when you feel seen and heard and you feel valued by someone. And I think we all need human connection, whether it's romantic or platonic. To bring it to dating, too, is I personally think I went through a period that I wasn't dating authentically. I remember my best friend when I was doing a lot of serial dating, when Tinder first came out, I was going on. Three dates a week, probably. That's probably a conservative number. Sometimes two in one night. And I remember my best friend just being so confused why nothing was sticking for me. She's like, you're unique Friends everywhere. It's so easy for you to connect with people, yet it's obviously not working. And I think what was happening is that I had my date Julian. I didn't have real truth. If that makes sense. Oh, it makes a total sense. And I think so many of us are guilty of that. For some reason, when we're meeting someone in a romantic context, we put on a different face that is not authentically who we are. So what do you think now that with other people seeing you as an expert in human connection? What do you think is like the one key to connecting on a date? Romantically.
00:15:13 - 00:20:08
Yeah. I think the key is finding common ground and playing off of one another. And I think storytelling is the best mechanism for that. And I remember even with friends, really bonding over just sharing stories, whether that was things happening in the moment or from our past and you know really not having that data view questions and I think that's why I was maybe failing on dates in flourishing in my social life is that I was just connecting with people at the level of your human being. I believe he would be, what shared experiences are we going to bond over versus on dating? I was maybe sizing people up or having these pre set questions I need to ask them to understand or I wanted to really make sure I was presenting my best self. I think for a long time, I was really focused on does this person like me? We're in friendship and human connection. You don't think about that, right? It's just like am I vibing with this person or am I not? In one of the areas I think I want to study more actually is like, why do we hit it off with some people so well? Yes. And not others. And I think like even when I met you, we just instantly connected. Totally instantly had common ground and we probably bonded over something super freaking dumb. I don't know what it was, but you know it's eating. It wasn't, it could have been, or, you know, it probably might have been more surface level than that, but something that maybe be like, oh, this is a cool person. I want to invest more time in getting to know this person. And something I really admire about Julie is that when I first moved to San Francisco, I didn't know many people, or at least I wasn't sure where I belonged. And Julie and I met once or twice, and she invited me to her birthday lunch, where I was able to deepen my relationship not only with her, but with some of her close friends. And I always credit my circle in San Francisco to Julie because she's the first she's the first one to really introduce me to a social circle where I felt like my most authentic self in. So I think that was really key, something I observed about you is that you give people a chance. You are willing to invite people out, see what happens, mix them up with other people you know. And just see if chemistry happens. And if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, right? Yeah, I would say that's probably one of my greatest attributes and also my downfall at the same. Because I explained I think with dating, maybe that's where it's gotten me in trouble before. Is that I keep giving people chances because I do want to believe the best in people. And I do want to think that people will come through. And I think in dating, I might have tolerated things that I wouldn't tolerate right now because I was like, oh, you know, I'll just give another chance. Like, this was happening. This was going on in their lives. It's not reflective of how they feel about me. Totally flakes on our last day, but now they're calling me at 2 a.m.. They're still a chance. They ourselves would just be like, don't even waste your time. So let's keep that mindset for a sec because I think it naturally transitions into my next question, which is let's go back to 6 years ago when we decided to do the dateable podcast. What was your dating life like at that time? Yes. I was in an on again off again relationship. I believe when we first met. And I think we became friends when we were on an off stage. And then we became on again right before we started this podcast. And you know this person was kind of, I thought at the time was the one. Even though we were, I think, a lesson learned to. Anytime it's audit off more than once, not a healthy relationship, not a good sign, but again, back to I'm going to make it work. It's the circumstances or they just need to get through this and then it will be happily ever after. I think I'm a romantic at heart too, which is part of the problem. And I think I've become a much more of a realist over time. So yeah, I was juggling this on again off again relationship. But I think the real pivotal part of it, which is fascinating to kind of why maybe I was interested in starting this podcast with you, was before this relationship, I had had relationships before, but no one to this magnitude. No one that I felt the way I felt for this person. And I think I realized it wasn't all about me, if that makes sense. Because I was doing the serial dating for so long and like I was saying my Friends would be like, you have no problem. Being friends with all these people, why can't anyone go past a third date? And I started to really believe there was something fundamentally wrong with me. And I think a lot of our listeners have been there as well, which is actually like one of the greatest surprises and benefits I think of doing this podcast is that it's given us a platform to make people not feel so alone.
00:20:09 - 00:25:04
Because I definitely felt alone in it and especially when you have friends that are all meeting people, no problem or their couples up. You start to believe that there might be something wrong that's going down. And what this relationship did for me was that it made me realize that there are two people at the table here. It's what's going on for B what's going on for them and you know I truly do believe that my ex did love me very dearly, there was a lot of reasons why I just didn't work. And I think seeing where he was coming from and understanding that made me feel like I wanted to kind of share the gospel with people that it isn't you, like there's a lot of factors going on for people and we don't need to feel so bad about ourselves when dating. All we need to do is recognize when things are working and when they're not and make moves accordingly. And while we're on the subject of the ex, we might as well just go into this because this is a very meaty part of Julie's love to go for anybody who's been following along, you know that Julie and the ex to get back together at the beginning of COVID, hoping to make it work and things did not work out. But you had some very powerful realizations during this time one of them being that you are over this X finally. Someone who's been in your life on and off for so long. So for a lot of our listeners who are having a hard time getting over an ex who meant so much to them, what made you come to this realization and how did you arrive there? Yeah. I mean, it was an on again off again relationship for 5 years. So it was a long time. When you look at it in that regard. And I never met him, which is a crazy thing. It's just so ironic. I think you're literally my only friend. Yeah. Never met the doctor. You probably won't ever. Yeah. Yeah, so 5 years on again off again, I still don't know why UA's never met him, but she hasn't. And I think for a while, I believed it was going to work. In my mind, I still believed he was the one for me. And we talk about this to people that are trying to get past someone until you can not believe that going on dates is almost a waste of time. Because you are essentially using data as a way to show the ex. Or get them back. I think a lot of times, oh, if they know I'm moving on, they're going to come back and that's not coming from a place of I want to use I want a date to actually beat someone who is a better match for me at a better fit. It's coming from a place of wanting to get your ex back. And I think I was doing that for a while. I was going through the motions of dating. But there was someone occupying either my physical time still because we were kind of trying to figure things out or my mental time if we weren't together talking at that stage. So I think that's first thing first is to really start dating, you need to make that shift off of it. How did I make this shift? Part of it was a lot of self work. I think it sounds so cliche, but the first time I went to therapy was after the first breakup with this act. And you know, it was a really hard breakup, but I'm actually so glad now that I went through it because I think it changed me as a person. I think I was much more. I wanna say surface level, maybe before this, like it definitely deepened me, I think. And it also allowed me to be more independent. I remember, I feel like I would go out all the time and just be surrounded by people, so I never had to be alone in my thoughts. And I think a lot of people do that. It's just keeping busy all the time. And sometimes we have to slow down to speed up. And I remember after breaking up with this ex and doing therapy, I did a first solo trip to the Hot Springs. I love it. Which doesn't even sound like a big solo trip, but for me that was. It was a big deal to go myself and just be alone in my thoughts. I would make it a ritual every year to go there. And I would journal about what was going on in my life. What was it about my ex that I loved? What was it that did not work for me in a long term relationship? So I think a lot of it was that, plus dateable, to be honest, you know? Yes. It really was like therapy in itself, yeah, and I actually ironically, not ironically, when I say it. So actually, when my ex and I got back together in COVID, he said to me that you are like a different person now. And remember, I said, because I actually confronted things. When I dated him, I think that I was not able to communicate my needs whatsoever, because I was always like a fear that this would push this person away. And I think some of it goes back to childhood and how I dealt with things there too.
00:25:05 - 00:30:06
It's like sometimes it's easier just not to say anything, but that doesn't really help you in the long run. So when we dated this, I don't even know. Third time around or whatever we want to call it, he was like, you are so different now. You're just stating what you need. And I like it. I know now what to expect and what the parameters are a bit more. So I think that was a huge revelation for me, and this podcast really was the catalyst for that. Is that I can't expect someone to be a mind reader. He technically wasn't doing anything wrong because I was never telling him what I needed at a relationship. I kind of just taking what he was willing to give me. So I think that was a big piece of it, so I got really crystal clear of what I needed in a relationship and what I wanted. And then when we did this time around and COVID, there was always an expiration because I knew I could not keep doing this for years and years on end. It was like, we are making this work this time, or it's done. And when there was a sign of the old stuff coming back, basically we realized that not enough had changed, and we were in two different places still. And at that point, it made it very clear to me that this was over for good. And I'll say I tried to get back on dating apps right after, I remember this poor guy. Roadkill. Yes, he was total roadkill. I've ever this guy tried to set up a date with me. And I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I just couldn't. And to me, that was a sign that I wasn't ready to date again. But poor guy, he had no idea clearly what I was going through. I think eventually I did tell him that I was getting out of something and realized I'm just not ready to date. But think about how many people that could happen to our data apps that you have no idea what's going on in their life. So I think it was that, but some of it was just time. When I started to realize that dating wasn't right for me, and there was a few dates in between two. I did pull back a bit. I spent time back on the east coast and courses over COVID too. And there was something that's shifted for me one day, and what it was exactly and what it was exactly. I don't even know, but I finally wanted to meet people to meet people, not to do it for my act. Okay, so I think this is where people want a little bit more clarity, because everybody wants to search for the Holy Grail of a moment of clarity. That is a Holy Grail in relationships like this where you're often on your maybe stuck on your ex and the kicker is your ex is still into you. It's not like they've moved on or they've said they're not no longer to you. And that's what makes it even harder. So what is can you pinpoint a moment of clarity when you knew that this has to be over? Because yes, you said the old stuff came up and you were like, we're done. But that's also happened like ten other times. In the course of 5 years, so what made this time the time for you to say, this is it, this is the end. Yeah. I think I just realized nothing was going to change. I think I got rid of that false hope that when this happened, it could all work out. And one of the biggest lessons I've learned from dating is you need to take people at face value of where they are today. We can not bank on potential. And I think a lot of us do this, right? Is we want this person to be the person we think they are. And maybe it's actually even coming from a great place because I think I did see my ex as the wonderful person I believed he could be and maybe his highest potential, but he wasn't there to meet me there, basically. So I think I realized that things weren't going to change. I knew at that point what I wanted and what I needed. And at that point, it was obvious that I couldn't keep doing this. Before I get into my next question, let's take a quick break for sponsors. This episode is sponsored by better help. It is no surprise, Julie and I are huge fans of therapy, especially online therapy and better help can do exactly just that. They match you with your own license therapist and connect you in a safe and private online environment. I was able to start communicating with my therapist and less than 48 hours super fast. Better help is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches and it's more affordable than traditional offline counseling. There are licensed professionals specialize in everything from stress management, anxiety, trauma, dating and grief. We attainable wish for all of you to live a happier, more wholesome life, and we think therapy and prioritizing your mental health will accomplish that. So ask our listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by visiting our sponsor at better help dot com slash dateable. Join over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health. Again, that's better help HELP dot com slash D ATE ABL E this episode is brought to you by zocdoc has this ever happened to you, you need to see a doctor, you start to find one that looks pretty good. You rearrange your schedule so you can snatch an appointment and when you finally go in, you find out that doctor doesn't even take your insurance.
00:30:07 - 00:35:05
But there's a solution for that just download the free zocdoc app, the easiest way to find a great doctor in instantly book an appointment, with zoc Doc, you can search for local doctors who take your insurance, read verified reviews and book an appointment. It's not just for doctors. I recently use Zach Doc to find a new dentist after moving to LA. You can use it to find dermatologists, psychiatrists, eye doctors, or other specialists. It is my go to whenever I need to see a doctor or health professional. Zoc Doc makes healthcare easy and now is the time to prioritize your health, go to Zach Doc dot com slash dateable and download the zocdoc app to sign up for free and book a top rated doctor. Many are available as soon as today that's Zee DOC dot com slash D ATE ABL E this episode is brought to you by athletic greens with the unpredictable environment these days I was looking for a way to optimize my immune system and make sure I was doing all that I can to keep healthy. And I kept hearing about athletic greens. So I had to check it out for myself. And y'all, it is absolutely living up to the hype with one delicious scoop, you're absorbing 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food source super foods, probiotics, and adaptogens to help you start your day right. I just mix a scoop with water and drinking in the morning to replace my regular coffees. And I love that it supports better sleep quality and recovery. It's cheaper than getting all the supplements separately and it's recommended by professional athletes. Now is the time to reclaim your help and arm your immune system with convenient, daily nutrition. To make it easy, athletic greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is go visit athletic greens dot com slash dateable. Again, that is athletic greens, athletic, GR, ENS dot com slash DA TEA BLE to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. And so, you know, you and I have talked about this. And I love asking you this question. What is your take on keeping in touch with the eggs? So for years I thought you could and I wanted to, and that was part of what perpetuated this, right? Is that I did really like my ex as a person and I still do like and care for him as a person. But that doesn't mean that they need to stay in your life. And I think for a long time, we were both holding onto this relationship still and using friendship as an excuse for it. So it wasn't that we were coming at it in a genuine friendship. We were still helping friendship as an excuse to keep in touch. But yes, it was still, it would still become there's hope. And I don't think that's healthy if you want to move forward. If that's the reason you're using friendship. That being said, I have another act that I dated between this X mentioning that lives in the UK now. I've talked about him on the show. He and I, you know, we didn't date as long, just given the circumstance. I catch up with him maybe once a year. It's totally fine. There's no feelings involved. It doesn't bring stuff up for me. Basically. So I think in that case, I mean, there's a clear distance barrier to that's happening over there. So I think that makes it a lot easier. And I don't know, a mixed on it still because it's like on one side you like this person enough to be in a relationship, if not even love them. Why should they be gone for your life completely? But I think if they're getting in the way of moving forward, that's when it becomes problematic. And what the decision I had to make even recently was that in my current partner is not jealous whatsoever. So this did not come from him. It came from my own self, was that I, if the tables were turned, would I be comfortable with this happening? Yeah. My answer was no. Did I feel like this is what was setting me up for my future and present versus keeping me in the past? I would love for there to be a world that I have no feelings at all when my ex texts me, but until that happens, I don't think that it's always serving you to stay in contact with that person. Yeah, and I think that's a really great piece of advice is that does this bring up anything for you? When you see your see their name pop up on your phone as a trigger you do emotions come up again. And if it does affect you in a certain way, it's probably not a good time to keep in touch with them. Yeah. And it doesn't mean even a feelings come up. It doesn't mean that you have feelings for this person anymore. Even in love with them, but it's hard to sometimes erase all feelings from the past. I always want to say that I feel like I should be above it and that I can move on from it, but it's just human nature that's something you're going to trigger you in some way.
00:35:05 - 00:40:01
I think what the big piece was, I'm backtracking a little. I started to see my needs as more important than his needs. I think that is really what did it for me is my needs was to propel forward and find the type of relationship I wanted and then when I did find that, my need was to preserve that relationship, not put this other person in front of me. I think that is so important for people to hear, because at some point in your relationship with them, Julie, we're going to get out the subject very soon. So let's just one last but one last note about this X is you said something to me that was such a red flag and where you said, well you said if he could only see how good I am for him and how much I can help him that he can see that the potential of our relationship. And I think so many people get stuck on that is that if they can only see how good I am for them, but by you saying that you had completely abandoned your own needs. So for anybody going through the same thing, it's kind of like learn from what Julie just said that sometimes you got to put your own needs first and say, am I even getting my needs met here? Yeah, it can be hard to do that, especially if they're going through certain things in their life. It can be hard to sometimes put your needs first, but that really is the only way to move forward. And we're going to move forward. We're going to exhale out the X and move on to your now partner who you met on hinge and how long have you been together now? How many months been ten months? Ten months of time. Almost a year. Everyone who's been listening to dateable has been on this journey with you from the moment you met him to now of committed serious relationship. What do you think? So think about this. This relationship feels at least to me, it feels very different. You feel like a different person with this partner. It just feels comfortable and happy and light. And I don't want to use the word easy, but it feels like you didn't have to fight as hard for this relationship. So what is different about this relationship? Yeah, I think it is that that it's easy. And that doesn't mean that every day is easy. And as you progress in a relationship, that you're always going to be on the same page about every last thing. But I think what makes it easy is that the way we communicate is easy, the way that I can be around him is easy. I can be my full self. I was telling him the other day that I feel like with past partners, I was always kind of holding back a little. I was always thinking we talked about trade of thought text messages on your episode last week. And you know, sometimes I text my friends all day every day and have these really kind of just like updates of your life that are I don't know, sounds so stupid saying it, but you know like these things that don't really matter, but in a way brings you closer. Maybe that's the human connection again that you're sharing experiences with someone else. And I feel like with past partners, I did not text them the way I do my closest friends. And it was because I feel like I always didn't think that they would meet me there, but with him from an early time, I just always felt like I could be myself and he told me one of the things that he loves the most to be about me is that I do share this stuff with him and it feels like we're a unit where in past it was I'm dating this person, they're living their life. I'm living my life. I think that's been a shift, even from day one. And ten months in, it's funny, because I thought I was super comfortable right when I met him, but looking back, we've only become more comfortable with each other, which is just what happens over time in a relationship. But even from the very early stages, there was a baseline level of comfort when you were still getting to know this person. Yeah, I think that's also good for listeners to hear, too, because the part of the trick of human connection is that shared experience, but also involving someone in your life. And when we hear about some of you dating, having these early relationships and someone goes on a trip and then you don't hear from them, then you feel like the relationship actually goes backwards. But if they were to send you a picture of something they ate on their trip and then instantly brings you closer and it could be something so simple. So here's a listener question for you. How has what you valued in a partner and partnership changed? Yeah. I mean, I think I was definitely and I think a lot of it is that it's the right person, but it's also the right time for both of us. That we were both looking for someone that we could share our lives with. When I was dating before and had other partners, I think I wanted someone that could come along for the ride with me. And I remember saying at early stage, I just want someone that can go out with me and my Friends. And it's not that I don't want that now.
00:40:02 - 00:45:01
I definitely do, but that isn't the number one driver of the relationship. I think I put a lot more weight on social cloud and who they knew. I think I used to be more in a social scene type thing if that makes one of those. A socialite. But yeah, I don't know. I don't want to say socialite, but I think I did put more weight on that in part of it was that I was dating people that I met through friends and there was this story attached to it and I was living for that. I think now, one of the biggest shifts I had when I was dating this time around is that I changed what was the primary things I was looking for, consistency was a big one, because that was I felt like was super lacking with my ex, which was the main driver of a lot of our problems. And someone that was at the same level that wanted to commit the same way I wanted to commit. Was a big aspect. And I think with him, I saw both. There has not been a day that we have not texted each other in the last ten months. And that is not something that I experience with other partners. When we went on early dates, he would ask me for the next date on the date. That alleviated so much questioning. It's so much anxiety that I would get in dating. And it just made me feel like this person wants to spend time with me. There was no work. And I think before I maybe wanted to have a challenge when someone over changed them, I think that all went out the window that I back to, you got to take people at face value. I got less a lot less tolerant of bullshit. When I was dating, if someone was not consistent, I was done. Instead of trying to make them a like me and doing things. Yeah, and sometimes those inconsistencies are what makes people think they have butterflies for someone. It's because someone's unpredictable. I don't know when they're going to call them. When that doesn't really align with what you're looking for, which is the consistency you want something that you want something you can depend on. So then another listener question and this is back to you being a romantic at heart. How do you remain? Because there was a period of time when you were single and going on dates and hopefully finding your person. How do you remain hopeful you will find your person and enjoy the season of waiting. Yeah, I love that because I've been the 5th wheel so many times. Or maybe like the 7th wheel or the dieth wheel or the 11th wheel who even knows. And I think there was a period of time. I remember actually talking in therapy. This was after I broke up with my ex, of course, the timing was right before a marathon of weddings, where I would be going solo to these weddings. And I remember just being like, I can't believe I'm gonna be the only single person there. And my therapist be saying in return, no one is thinking about it as much as. So true. And yeah, it's so true. And I think that over time, and this isn't something that I think that helped for sure. It didn't magically cure it. But I started to just become a lot more comfortable and not care as much. And I think it's interesting because the waiting period, I know that's the question, but I almost feel like it's giving up on the waiting and just being like, fuck it. This is my life and I'm happy with my life. And here's all the things that are going really well in my life, actually what I met my current partner. I remember I met up with my best friend the next day, and I was like, you know, I really liked him. We had a really great time. We didn't stop talking. It was a great date, but you know, if I don't hear from him again, I don't hear from him again. My life is going to move on. Of course I want to hear from him. I'm not saying I don't. But I'm also kind of at the point that the right person will recognize that there is a connection here. A big part of it was that I was super happy with my life independently. And I think to get out of this waiting period, it's to stop thinking about it as a way they period. I love that so much. I think what I'm hearing you say is we tend to define these bookmarks in our life as people as people who come in and out of our lives. So their relationships. But the time in between people, those are also seasons that we should celebrate. So that's not a waiting period. It's just a period of change and transition, but we don't always have to say these milestones are somewhat connected to a person that you're dating. For sure. I think one of the mistakes maybe I made along the way. And I'm saying mistakes so people can maybe reflect the knot do the same thing is think that thinking that having someone was better than no one and all that did was not allow for the right person to come into my life. Exactly. And I think some of it was in this kind of sounds stupid when I'm saying it out loud, but it's true.
00:45:01 - 00:50:01
Some of it is fitting in with the herd. And that kind of goes back to the Hewitt connection aspect of sharing similar experiences. If all your friends are talking about their significant others, it almost feels better to have someone that you could talk about, even if they treat you like utter shit than no one. But why would that ever be what your friends want for you? It's not exactly like that isn't the way to one connect with your friends or also what's best for you in the long run. So I think what really was the defining moment was that I stopped caring that I was that 5th wheel. It was just like, I'm living life. And here I am and I'm happy with what life has. And now with your current partner, what relationship rituals have you and your partner created? The texting I mentioned that we really don't, there hasn't been a day that we have in texted, which I think is important to me. I learned. We always say good night to each other if we're not like that. We'll always send an emoji kissy face. Goodnight. Cheesy things. So that's been a ritual. You know, we try to, I don't know if this is a ritual, but we really do try to go for a walk or hike every weekend to be outdoors and stay active. So those are the ones that come to mind, but is there like a specific type of ritual you're kind of we don't have the person that asks the question, but I think those are exactly the rituals. Do you like sacrifice a lamb before you get up in the morning? Is that a ritual? Or a ritual could just be saying good night every night. So you can interpret that. However you want, but if there's something very offbeat that you want to talk about, yeah, now it's time. Any other crazy rituals? I wish I could say we sacrificed a lamb, but unfortunately that's not the case. And here's a question from shield, one of our favorite community members. She wanted to know what are some data episodes that you've re listened to that have helped you with your current relationship? She's a choose two. Oh, well, you know I'm not gonna only choose to. She said, specifically, if more than two just choose two. Okay, I'll choose two. Two and a half. Yeah, of course. So the first one that comes to mind is the 80 80 marriage. And this one, I'm not married, but when you're in a serious relationship, heading that direction, I think a lot of what was said in there applies. And I think what it's really taught me is to stay appreciative of your partner and not feel like now that you have a partner just kind of do the status quo and they'll be there all the time. I think it's how can you stay grateful and gracious to this person and instead of looking at it? I don't know, it gives me joy. This sounds weird, but it gives me joy to go pick up groceries for when we're going to have lunch at my house that I can provide this veal to have opposed to thinking about it like why am I the one picking up groceries, not that that's the case in our relationship, my boyfriend actually cooks way, way more than I do. But I think it's like how can you look at what you're giving to this person, opposed to what they're not doing? So that one has stuck with me for sure. The other one that I'll do as a 2.5 is how to have a healthy relationship with Vienna. That was just one episode. No, I know. I'm adding the 2.5 wait for it. Oh, okay. So we have got it. So we have the one with Vienna. It's cotter, and then I'm gonna add schemas in there too. Got it. Okay. That's how she does it. That's my 2.5. But I think what both of those episodes taught me is how can I better understand where my partners coming from. Instead of just looking at how I am showing up in my life experiences, how can I understand my partner by one asking them? And then two, just observing them and finding out about their childhood finding out about how they view certain aspects of life. We did the schemas quiz together on it probably within month one or two. I remember that alone gave me so much insight into my partner and how we thought about the world and how the beliefs that he held. So now when things come up, I'm like, oh yeah, it's coming from this place. So while that one is definitely meant to help you understand you, I've used it to also understand him and then in how to have a healthy relationship similarly Vienna and Connor talk a lot about understanding your partner's conflict style and their upbringing and all the stuff that makes them the person they are today. And not being afraid to get raw and real and talk about all that stuff. In one of the many things I appreciate about my partners that we just talk about everything. There's nothing that's not on the table.
00:50:02 - 00:55:01
And that's the type of relationship I wanted. And we'll link those episodes in the show notes. In case you haven't listened to them yet, or want to re listen to them. ELISA wants to know, do you have a relationship culture or a motto that you live by? Together with your current part. I mean, I think we're both very growth mindset oriented, which is helpful. So that's a part of, I'd say a culture. We haven't necessarily defined a culture as much as you and your partner have in the last episode that you referenced. I think one interesting part is that we've actually realized that we actually complement each other really well. That we have different ways of approaching things and he's ventured before that I help him speed up and he helps me slow down. One thing that I don't do is I just go. I don't read instructions. I don't think about things all the time. I just do it. And he's the opposite. And I think that what has helped us is that we complement each other in that. And it's kind of made us both rise up in different ways by learning from one another. So that's been a big aspect of our relationship. And even this year, what am I main goals is to slow down a little because I do think you can mention this before. You can slow down to speed up in the long haul. Let's get to some fun stuff because we also have so many people currently using dating apps and just racking their brains on how to make it work for them. And you, Julie, have prided yourself on using the apps differently than most people. Can you kind of go into what that means and how you've used the apps differently? I think I just don't get fixated on app dynamics at all. I hear all the time people talking about profiles and the algorithm and opening lines. And I've really used apps to meet new people. And some of it, I think, is that apps have been ingrained in my dating life for over ten years. I used match in 2010 in the tender 2012 when I first came out. So it's always been a way of dating for me. And it just, it's another, I always view it as another mechanism, another way to meet people, both my current partner and the British acts I met through hinge. In both of them, we've said we would never have met each other if it wasn't from this dating app. We have no comment circles and like I said before in the past common circles was so important to me. It was so important that they rode at a similar social circle and all this stuff. But I realized over time that it does not matter as long as what's more important is that they have the values that I'm looking for in a partner. So I think having the ability to open your network to people that you would never meet. And both of these partners said that they would never approach me at a bar because they would never approach any girl at a bar, which actually is one of the reasons why I think also the flashy profiles on data gaps are not the right people to be engaged with. You want to find the hidden gems on these data gaps. I mean, there's a reason why bars aren't always the best place to meet people in that a lot of times it doesn't lead to relationships or hookups because the person that has no qualms about hitting you up in a bar isn't the person that is gonna be necessarily the best significant other. The person that's going up to every woman at the bar doing that. So I think what we get so fixated on this profile that really says nothing about the person as a whole. I've also learned that no one looks like their photos for better or worse. This isn't just on data gaps. It's in work settings. People we meet through data, like they never look like them anyways. So I've always adapted this and I'm not saying that you swipe on every last person. There's certainly people that I'll form a gut opinion if I'm attracted or enough, right? If there is no way in hell that this is ever going to work out, I'm not going to waste their time or my time. But I think if it's a maybe, then it's a yes. That's the mentality. I have taken, and I've, you know, there's people that I've seen on day the apps that have looked amazing and then I meet them in real life and they don't pan out. Other people that look okay, data gaps that I beat them in real life with their freaking fantastic. So I just have learned that they're so little weight. We can put on this, that it's just, it's just a waste of time. Essentially, to get so hung up on it. And quite frankly, by doing data by day job, all the stuff I just didn't have time to look at it that way. So it was all about how can I just have conversations with people? Like I would, and it's actually so much more efficient than going out and trying to be people in real life every day of the week that you can just sit at home and do this multitasking. So for me it worked from an efficiency standpoint and when I was in the mindset of I'm just going to solely use this to meet new people. It's something you always say is don't overthink it.
00:55:01 - 01:00:02
Just don't overthink it, right? And I think what a lot of daters do and myself guilty is that you read someone's profile and then you start developing this idea of them that gets you really excited. But that doesn't really match up to the real person, so then it sets you up for disappointment. So how do people prevent that kind of hype period before meeting up with someone IRL? I think we need to recognize the limitations of apps. The qualities that matter in dating, you're never going to know from a profile or even from a quick conversation with someone, you're not going to know if they're consistent if they're kind if they're someone that you can talk to for hours and not get bored around like all the things that really matter and a partnership or that they're on the same page if you've been wanting this site at the same type of partnership. You're not gonna learn that from a dating profile. And even if you say all the stuff in a dating profile, that's just up to someone's interpretation. They're gonna be like, of course, I'm kind. Of course I'm funny. You know? They think that. It's like any human connection that you form. It's over time. You get to know a person and you realize if you connect and jive with them or you don't. I remember talking to one of my best friends about dating, she had met her now husband in college. So it was just so perplexed by modern dating. And she worked at a data gap, though, and she said, the one thing that people do that confuses her is that they make these snap judgments so quickly. If you look at any other relationship in your life and she equated about her and my relationship, we met on our work shuttle bus that we took and every day we'd sit together and were we best Friends the first day that we sat together? No. But it progressed over time. And I think when we're expecting to have meet our husband or wife or whoever on date one, that's just not a realistic way of thinking about it. And even the best organic connections, let's talk about your relationship. This is my interview, but you knew each other 7 years before you actually started dating. Sometimes it does just take time. So I think we need to remember the limitations of an app that we're just talking to know if this person is the one for us right away. And if we do think we know because of their profile, that's just us in a figment of our imagination projecting the person that we want them to be. It's not who they actually are. Yeah, we're just fantasizing at that point. But something that you and I have fantasized about that did come to fruition is this podcast. And I do want to end this interview on the podcast because so many people were so curious how we started it and how we've been able to do this for 6 years. So when we first talked about doing this podcast, had you heard of any other dating podcasts at that time? No. I think the only podcast I had heard about was cereal in UA and I were in a bar one night with two of our other friends. And I don't even know how we were just talking about dating, but I don't know how the idea of doing a podcast even came to be, but we were just like, we should do a podcast. And I remember after we launched the podcast, we met up with a friend of a friend. He told us about guys we fucked that podcast. So that was the first. I had heard about, but it was after we had launched dateable. I think ue and I were just kind of like, I guess the go mentality that I think is actually, you know, sometimes hurts me, but also helps me is that I'll just do something. And I'll just be like, why not? This sounds like fun. Let's try it out. Let's get some friends on the food to talk about dating. You know, why not? And this show has gone through so many iterations for anybody who hasn't listened to our first season. It was hosted by me and a male co host, his name is Michael. Yes. And Julie was a producer that would chime in, she'd be like screaming, ask this question or I want to say something. It's actually really funny because we shared one mic I think first couple episodes and we got multiple mics and then it was like let's make it like a radio show so the producers in the background and sometimes talk. But now you are obviously have your own microphone and your co host. So it makes it a lot easier that way. You're not screaming across the room. What do you think going from producer to now producer and co host? When did you know that you wanted the mic and wanted to give your opinion? Yeah, I think at the beginning, maybe some of it's impostor syndrome, right? You and the other co hosts were both dating coaches. So I felt like you had a credibility that I didn't have. And that I think was maybe what made me be like, yeah, I should just be the producer in the background and do the website because that's like my background is attack and I could do that type of stuff. So I think some of it was from that from the early days.
01:00:03 - 01:05:01
I think also you and I for whatever reason thought we needed like the male female dynamic and that was probably more from old school boarded TV and that was just the dynamic that was always there. And I think a lot of podcasts like guys we fuck broke through that to have two women hosting a show. So there was that aspect too. I think it was just like assume that that's what I would do. When that's shifted, I think I felt like I have a lot to say. That was a big piece of it. I mean, what started as why I wanted to do this is that I felt like I had been through it. I felt the pain of feeling like you're alone in this process. It can be a really lonely place to think that there is something wrong with you when you're dating. So that was what drove me to do this podcast. When we started it, it was definitely more about sharing and commiserating about stories. And I think over time, I was able to piece together too that there's something a lot larger here with UA, of course, but this is not just a dating story. There is a modern dating culture that in quite frankly there's a lot of areas that it's broken. I would tie it back to the very beginning. I think west dog Caleb bodies, why modern day culture is broken. And I was sick of seeing when you Googled for modern day day articles that came up that said modern dating sucks. And that's what you would see all the time. And I guess what drove me is this kind of a long winded answer. What drove me to start and then also have a voice is that we grew up in the days of Cosmo and the rules and the more traditional advice and I think it started off even UA had very traditional views when we started off about your dynamics and who should pay for dates and who should ask people out at all the stuff. And the more we learn from doing data, the more we saw that we could actually change data culture and help people get out of their own way. And I wanted to be a part of that. And you are a part of it. We're so glad that you took the mic and have voiced your own experiences and learnings. So you asked me the same question on our last episode. What are your goals for this new year personally and professionally? Yeah. I mean, definitely for dateable to grow for sure. I echoed your personal though. I think it's interesting because I was very happy being single. I really was, especially right before I met my partner, but I realized from being with the right person, the level of happiness that I didn't know was available, I guess, is a baby a good way to say it. So what I want for myself is one to continue to have that happy this, but also for our community members to have that happiness. And even if they haven't met someone, have the happiness of being comfortable in their own skin and loving their life at a minimum and then hopefully meeting that person that they've been looking for this whole time. I think that's what keeps me going with data and amplifying our reach only allows more people to do that. And it kills me when people get so frustrated with dating apps or so down on themselves the process of dating. So I want to build a world that people are coming into it, just being like, someone is freaking lucky to meet me. Like, whatever that happens, that happens, and I'm not going to think about it as a waiting game, but I'm going to think about it as this is just a page of my story and let me see how my story unfolds whatever direction it does. What else I've loved about what we've done with data is when we first started it was all about two people going on a date. We've had so many episodes of self love and self reflection and really just understanding how you play into the equation and not that you're doing something wrong, but what's an area that you can grow in and I want to keep doing more of that. And we will be doing more of that. This wraps up this episode, but I want to do something fun that Julie loves to do with a guess, which is rapid fire questions. And so I've got a list of rapid fire questions. You have three seconds to answer each question. Before I get into that, I just want to make a very quick plug for our 22 day dating app reset challenge that is still live until Valentine's Day. And you heard it here, Julie has used the dating apps totally different than most people. And we've used those nuggets and learnings in this challenge. So every day for 22 days, you get a trick or a hack or a tidbit or a fact that will change the way you use online dating. So you can sign up for that still at finding your person dot com slash apps. Okay. Ready? I'm giving you three seconds. I'm ready. Ready question. Okay. We start off very easy.
01:05:01 - 01:08:49
Dogs or cats. Dogs. Coffee or tea, coffee. Missionary or doggy, missionary. Firm or soft. Firm. Vanilla or chocolate. Vanilla? What motivates you every morning? Oh my God. I just do it. I just do it. Don't think about it. Just go. What is something you're irrationally afraid of fire? Popular dating advice you disagree with, it's a numbers game. A talent you wish you had singing. If you can't host a dating podcast, what else would be your dream job? That's like any more time. Seconds. If I can't host a dating podcast, what would be my dream job? You can say helping other podcasters. Okay, great. The first person's name that pops into your mind right now. Go. You a because I'm looking at what phrase has more effect on you. I love you where you're everything to me. I love you. What phrase has more effect has more effect on you. I love you or you're beautiful. I love you. I love you or I got you coffee. I got you coffee 'cause that is my love language. I love you or I hate you. I love you. I love you or you're my person. You're my person. That wraps up rapid fire. Nice job. She only cheated on two of those questions where she had more than ten seconds. But she did it. Okay, you went from super easy to read movement. Which is question. Go. Well, this was so much fun. I hope our listeners enjoy this. It just gives a little peek into the mind of miss Julie. What I love about why we're doing this is that if we were to do this again in a year from now, it's going to be different too, we're constantly evolving and we're documenting our changes through this podcast. So thank you all for being along for the ride. We're going to wrap up this episode. We're about to bring you season 14 very, very quickly, but we also appreciate those 5 star reviews and Apple podcasts. So please do that whenever you get the chance we seriously seriously appreciate it. Okay. Shall we wrap this up? The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network, find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tagas in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitcher radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable. Introducing venture X, Capital One's new travel card for people always asking, where next? You are in ten X miles on hotels and rental cars and 5 X miles on flights book through Capital One travel. And two X miles on everything else you buy with venture X plus receive premium travel benefits like access to over 1300 airport lounges. The venture X card from Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply, see Capital One dot com for details.