S10E21: An Open Letter to Shitty Husbands w/Matthew Fray

Dateable Podcast
June 30, 2020
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June 30, 2020

S10E21: An Open Letter to Shitty Husbands w/Matthew Fray

What if we told you the silent killer of relationships was something so seemingly small, and so avoidable? Join us as we chat with Matthew Fray about how a “good guy” like him ended up being a shitty husband and how others can avoid these missteps.

An open letter to shitty husbands

What if we told you the silent killer of relationships was something so seemingly small, and so avoidable? Join us as we chat with Matthew Fray about how a “good guy” like him ended up being a shitty husband and how others can avoid these missteps. We discuss why neglecting your partner's thoughts and feelings is the demise of a relationship, how to recognize signs of this behavior even in early dating, and the importance of being aware of this now even if you're nowhere close to marriage.

Check out Matt's blog:

Thank you to our partner for this episode:

This episode is brought to you by Kensington’s newest title from Lorelei Parker, CRUSHING IT. You can find CRUSHING IT wherever books are sold. Find out more at

Episode Transcript

Season 10 Episode 21: An Open Letter to Shitty Husbands

00:00:00 - 00:05:02

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating, but so much more than just modern dating in the ten seasons that we've been doing this show. We realized that we talk about everything that is modern dating, but also just the reasons behind why people do the things they do right Julie. It's so much more than just dating stories. Yeah, and why like modern dating is forever changing how we do? Do relationships which will be going into a lot more on this season finale that we have for you all about just how this equates to the long-term. That's right. You heard that right? This is the season finale for our ten season. I still can't believe it. Our guest today came to us through multiple sources. I feel like many people shared has articles about shitty husbands. You probably know who I'm talking about if not. Obviously hear the entire interview, but it just brings back the quote that we been saying since season one which is, we're all each other's consequences and this current time in everything. We're going through right. Now I really hope that we can take that to heart with Cova. We're all each other's consequences to enjoy I. Don't know if I fully express. How disappointed I was this week because I was supposed to go down to L.. L. A. to visit my parents. Something happened where someone who I- been in contact with was also in contact with someone who tested positive, so as a result, we all had to not leave and not travel and basically quarantine for fourteen days, and it's unfortunate because I wish like this is a person who's always said. You don't understand why people don't wear masks. People should really take care and be safe yet. She's out there. Mingling and chatting it up and hang out with people without a mask on a for some reason, people just don't think a fucking applies to them, but again we're all each other's consequences, and because of this, it's such a domino effect, because now there's four of us who are no longer able to travel and see our loved ones. Yeah I remember when you told me that. That I'm just like this makes. It's so freaking real like how this really is that quote? We are all each other consequences like the fact that in theory like if this hadn't been caught right like if you caught it, and then you had had with me or someone else or your boyfriend like that person that we have no connection to whatsoever is the cause of this. I'm not saying it's that person's fault. It's just the way the virus works, but it really does show how interconnected we all are, and like how much everyone's actions really affect how we get out of this thing, and do people not see the numbers? We hit a record high this week. That is really fucking scary. Why are people still out and about acting like nothing's happening acting like? Oh, it's back to normal life. It's not stay home people I. Know It's really tough like I mean. Some states have reinstated. Stay at home order. I think is backed in quarantine. Right but I admit like I went to a friend's birthday this weekend at the beach, and like we definitely were all wearing masks and like trying to stay like relatively far away, but it's just hard. It's little things that you just forget as you're with people like there are some people in the fruit I haven't seen for a while given everything that's happening in my first instinct was to like with a hug. Wait. No, I, can't I don't. Know it's so strong. It's yeah, it is very hard and agree with you though it's like we're not our the woods on this you all know and I do also want to encourage anybody who is a going to see someone, or who's just curious to get tested I went to get tested last week actually twice because of this. It's not as scary as you think. We used to think that they prod your brain, and then you feel like you're drowning. It's not that anymore. They've totally changed. It's a just a short Q. Tip. It's basically like someone taking your nose from the inside. They swap both of your nostrils in your in and out in like ten seconds. It's not scary, so go get. Even if you have just a little bit of suspicion that you may have it, yeah, I mean when you said that to me. It definitely made me feel a lot more confident to go get tested I. Admit like I was debating after the protests and I was Kinda scared. Because I've heard just like how bad it was, so my the way I netted out is like.

00:05:02 - 00:10:01

Like okay I'm not gonNA. See anyone for a couple of days in see if any symptoms come on, then I'll go get tested in, didn't so I didn't but I think knowing your situation and that it really wasn't so bad and a friend of ours that was at a birthday party I was at two that she got tested in similar to you. JUST IT WASN'T A. A big deal at all zone either she mentioned like you just have to check a box. You have one symptom and you can get tested, so she's like everyone has a headache. You know right exactly. That's what I checked too, and it's just I. Don't know it's a tricky situation, too. Because there's also such a thing as getting tested too early, so you're supposed to get. Get tested five days after the first contact and then twelve days after the first contact. You're supposed to get get tested twice. So this is where my frustration lies. Is that because of this one incident I've reset my clock. Now I have to get tested again in a few more days is just really fucking annoying anyway. It drives me crazy that people really treat cova. It some people believe in some people don't or some people just think it's the Easter bunny like no just made it up. You know it's like a little kid story. Not It's real and it's killing people yeah, so I had a big week this week. I went to the dentist. It's because dentists is hot. But I did I told you that was like fight. Dentists was really attractive, and he's really fun I think he's single. Look into dating him, and then I started looking up online. I'm like he's definitely Eh. Sense I, say you a photo and she's like Yeah bike. Gaidar is terrible. Terrible. Burns. He's still attractive guy in the like jettas super sweet to like I was like so excited to see them I like. Them but again refrained myself. I've never been this excited, but I was thinking about why thought about this I was thinking about getting tested? Because you mentioned you got tested where my dentist is, but then I'm like wait. This wouldn't actually do anything. Today like I need to give it the time, but I was a little bump today I gotTa. Admit like I feel like usually like the pride parade is something were to every year and today. When we record this Sunday, the episode goes out on Tuesday seacrest by here a little bit of a lag between what's happening real time, but we try to keep it as close as possible to. Give give you guys the day by day. What's happening? But yeah, just thinking about pride today like this is normally the Sunday parade in San, Francisco, like it's in different cities on different days, but it's all in June and yeah, just a little teary, I pulled up an old photo of you and I from fried from like twenty seventeen so I. Remember that photo if you've been following us on instagram. Julie pulled up this photo. And what makes it so memorable? Is that I just got Mojo over I had just gotten him like the week. Week before or something, he was really scared of people and it was like. Hey, let's take you to a pride parade with thousands of people, but yes, I agree there's just like for for us at work. We did a virtual pride parade, but it's not the same because you still want the atmosphere that energy like is just not the same over zoom or facebook live so I get it. It's like I think this week has really set in for me that the rest of twenty twenty might just look like this. I don't I've already accepted that. Definitely already accepted that, but I did find this quote, and then put up on instagram so and I loved your story that you put up. Yes. That was really way. We're trying to hit it from all angles skies. This quote actually found the reason. Why really liked it? Because it? Also I'm not trying to detract from pride at all, but economy think about like black lives matter to going on there, but the quote is gay. Pride was not born of a need to celebrate being gay, but our right to exist without persecution, so instead of wondering why there isn't a straight pride movement. Be Thankful you don't need one and it kind of really hit home for me that it was very similar to what's happening with black lives matter when people say. That's so offensive. It's not saying that lives still matter. It's just saying don't need this, so yeah. I thought there were a lot of interesting parallels between the two, and also just shows how many different marginalized groups are going through their own struggles, and how much we need to celebrate the winds to and I really feel like the last couple months have been really heavy. Everything's just been very much about the weight. Weight of the situation and with pride feels very light hearted, and it feels Selah Tori, so. I think that there's something we can learn here with going forward with any struggles or obstacles that we face is that we learn to celebrate the winds to and not just talk about like the the heavy stuff, which is important.

00:10:01 - 00:15:11

You got to celebrate the winds and put on our best crop, top and sparkle pants. So speaking of celebrating Wits I wanNA share haven't actually shared this with you but I got over the first virtual date. Hump that I've been a little scared to go on a virtual date. I must admit that. Okay. It's a little bit. It's a little. Bit put off like with another date I. Come rescheduling shared that and I. Think part of it was that I was just a little intimidated to do virtual dates in the first place like I think personally I'm I've been told this before, so it's not like I think it, but people are always like. Oh, you look better in person than you looked in your photo. I don't think I'm a super genyk person, so I also feel a little intimidated by video. Some always like a little scared. Scared like I. Don't want someone's first impression to be on video like does that. I'm not like super, comfortable and Viviana, trying to get better at it. I'm like how do I work my angle better. Get the lighting better. All of that so I was like okay. You know what I'm just going to do it. I'm going to like get over that Hump and just see that it's not that bad so I did a video date. I grabbed a glass of wine and he was not. The photos all like not just like total mismatch in like vibe in everything good. or Not. Okay so again I'm not saying that like you should do this, but I have figured out a way to get another fair Biden is like. How do you get off the date in real life? You're like? Oh, I live somewhere else to go like France to be like. How do you get out of it? Everyone knows doing nothing. Yeah, right so figured it out. Guys I have a plan for everyone, so this actually happened to eat not on purpose, but I think it's. It's the way to go with the future, so you a Halston has I've been having Internet problems all week and we. Use. This on my phone on WHATSAPP. I decided to use what's up video because I think setting up. A meeting for a date is just too much. Yeah, so put my ring light on put. What's up a phone in the little bring light holder and the reception was terrible like it was so hard to hear him just everything, so it was on my side. I knew it, but I also do. It just wasn't a batch and I'm like. Like I could injure this for twenty minutes or I could get twenty minutes. Live life. Yeah, so I was like I feel like the connection's not very good like. Can I hit you up when I get my Internet facts so for anyone that needs an out you just no, there's no connection. Literally. That could be your answer so just yeah, fake, some sort of technical logical issue you just you just freeze. They just don't talk. Yes, exactly. That you should like treat someone poorly, but at the same time. Like of you know it's not a match. That's also a benefit of videos. You didn't risk your life. Risk their life. He didn't waste their time like all of that especially this day and age getting to a date to walk there. Yes, it's GONNA. Take like ours, so it's like if I can know that this person is just not going to be the right fit like let's just get this done faster. I like that that is a win. We should celebrate and for I. I think I also have to just congratulate Julie for something else, which is very much, related and unrelated to this is I. Think for anybody who doesn't have a podcast or does have a podcast. You realize at some point that you can't hide behind the equipment, because this just your voice and the minute Julian I decided to start doing video and to shore face. It kind of put a different spin on what we were putting out there and I think like for me I. Come from a TV background, so it just didn't faze me. Oh Yeah your video these angles and this was what you can share, but I really have to commend Juli- Julia was literally like this video. Thing is totally new for me and for me to put myself out there to all these people that I've never met. It's very daunting. Stage Fright is not just on an actual stage. It's video and even for all of you doing virtual dating video dating. You'd know how awkward it is to get on video so Julie. That's another win for you as overcoming that killed that awkward at first time of being a video, and just like Nas staring at yourself the whole time in picking it yourself so the growing moment. Moment. Another moment is appeal me. I got so many DM's for the. Would, you rather solved I made up another one for you. This is just for you just one question, but I think you need to hear this okay? We're GONNA make a compilation of this one day. Okay, oh. Yeah, quantum these questions. Would you rather? Would you rather know how long you and your partner will last in a relationship, or would you rather know how long your partner will live for who? Oh my God I don't even know.

00:15:11 - 00:20:20

I asked my boyfriend this and he's like I. Don't want to answer that question. I was GONNA say additionally I. Thought your other would be like. Would you rather not know and I was GonNa? Say I'd rather know how long we were going to last. Just so I can landing leave. That's my inner plant are coming out, but with your current question I don't know. I know it's a little morbid I guess I would want to know how long we were going to last. Because I think I would be afraid of the answer, like what if they were like the answer, the other side like what if they're like? Oh, you're going to die like tomorrow. In thirty years. That's just too morbid to me. As much is at obviously wanted to work out with a partner, I would rather like I think knowing that information can give you power. We're knowing when they're going to die doesn't give you any power right because this out of your control, right? You know you're not gonNA. Make it past year. Then you're like okay. Let me either see. Is this because we're not addressing things as this? Because we're just fundamentally different, and maybe we should actually end it sooner I. Think it would bring up a lot more questions that you could ask to really start evaluating your partnership, but just knowing when they're going to die doesn't really give you anything to work with. Yeah I'm in the same boat as you reminds me of that. Black Mirror episode. Where there's an APP, as soon as you meet someone, it shows how long you'll be together for, but then ended up being A. Basically a social experiment interesting. The test wasn't right anyway. There's a whole other level to it, but I do think if you knew how long you're GONNA last four. There's something you can fight for. If you think that person is right for you, right I love this, would you? Rather we'll have to hear from people that have heard the staffer a couple weeks and see if it's only we should make a segment every week or Would with. Change it up. You know there's so many options, but yeah, we didn't another fun. facebook group happy hour this week, so yeah, keep rolling. We'll like there's always something new every week, so. We're not going to spill all the good stuff. You gotta go there for yourself, so you can join the facebook. group at loved the time Corona, or and really in the facebook group. We discuss a lot of the recent. and. I always find these discussions really interesting and this episode in particular. Julie I. Bet you anything. It's going to illicit so much discussion. This man Matthew Fray. Throat so many articles, but he wrote this series of blogs about shitty husbands, and how to be a better husband after going through a very traumatic divorce himself and he'll tell you all about what what happened during this divorce in this interview, but coming out of this discussion I really think there are some great takeaways, but also some predictions that we should be making about marriage. gender roles about the idea of a husband. All very much changing, but my prediction for the future of relationships marriages is that people will go into marriages with a lot more understanding of their past, and how leads into their current communication style? People of the past. I'm so sorry you were thrown into the marriage pool and left to round. Because how were you supposed to know how to swim? The you're just thrown into this experiment called the marriage, and you just have to make it work somehow, but after this discussion I really think the prediction for the future is that we will be equipped with a lot more skills and resources and tools to communicate with our partners better because of learning and learning from our past absolutely and I think one of the things that was really interesting about this episode is you might say oh well. I'm not near marriage. Marriage, even close to it. This doesn't relate to me, but it does, and I think what his point was. The people that are have problems. It comes too late. They're not prepared for it. And by the time it hits, it's already over so like. How can we prepare for the challenges in? There was a point like you think it's like infidelity. Think it's like money issues like you think it's these certain things, but ninety percent of the reasons why marriages have their demise over these little everyday things that just keep building up resentment and I think we've talked about this before. Are there ways that you can? Can Go to couples counseling at the start of a relationship like preventative counseling. Are we going to have a world where people learn stuff in school like how to communicate better because we also talked on the episode, this is on just romantic relationships. It's having any sort of relationships if any of you have lists lived with a roommate before you've probably run into very similar things that really can come out years into a marriage, so I think my prediction is just going to become a lot more socially acceptable to be doing this stuff and advance, not when there's an issue, but this is just going to get baked.

00:20:20 - 00:25:05

Baked into our society that these are things that we need to learn and address and do from day one in not just when shit hits, the fan and I completely agree with that, too in order to get their starting today. Everyone listening right now you need to start changing your narrative about marriage in your head right now learn what the media has told you, which is after marriage you stop having sex and she becomes a Nag A. he becomes a kid after marriage. Everything goes downhill. Then once you get married, your life is done. Your husband will cheat on you, or you'll complain about your husband or. Get over it, you know because these were all story lines as sold Hollywood movies for so many years, and now we need to stop consuming that because that's not the narrative that will make any marriage a successful marriage, so let's the buck stops with us with that narrative Pece Cope each to. The other thing though is gender roles like you touched on this in this is fascinating, because I think a lot has changed in our guest today. He is in his forties, so I think a lot has shifted a people that are getting married now in their thirties or twenties. There's been a lot of changes with gender roles overall shop from dating all the way into marriage that being said though I have a lot of friends. I don't know if you have this, too is when it was just the two of them. It felt very. But then once children have come in. They have bear the invisible load in Lincoln taken on war work and I think the men. Their husbands have shown up greatly in the sense that they're doing a lot more proactive leaving like our dads and appearance of our generation. It was very much like the mom owns this. The woman does it, but they still say that it's not one hundred. Hundred fifty fifty, so I think that stuff has a lot of ways to still go, and I do think it will get there like I think we are actively. We've been working on what it means to be a woman for the last decade right so decade plus and I think it's time to focus on the man in our guest today Matthew Leaky says that like him growing. Growing up as a football player, he was never taught this stuff so I think it does come back to the education and the preventive. That was just talking about, but it's getting both partners. They're not being like Oh. This is a woman's thing to worry about. And that another very good point because again. We need to change a narrative because I think this society. We've reward transformation. Transformation quite a bit or we re. We reward anything. That's anti-syrian typical, so we reward the stay at home, Dad, we reward the drug addict. Who is now clean? We reward the criminal who has come out of parole and has a job, but we don't reward the person who has been a good person, their entire life or the stay at home. Mom who's worked her ass off. Your Life and where the for me, where the chip on my shoulder would come from. What about the women who are just doing the job because they're doing the job, they're looking for recognition, and you're recognizing that one single like stay at home. Dad For oh my goodness. WHAT A MARTYR! He is so again! We gotta realize yes, we. Great behavior, we also got recognize where people are working hard without that recognition well. Yeah, there's so much talk about what we got a whole episode. Thank goodness. I guess a couple of announcements, and then we'll get into it I think we talked about the facebook group. Please join like we've been stressing this, but it's been really great community also instagram like that has been probably like our most engaged social channel outside of the facebook group. We alluded to some of the fun things we posted. Ua kills it with the stories. There's always some really interesting stories and fun stuff that you can just learn about dating and modern relationships, and all that outside the podcast we try to highlight on instagram to. And tell your friend tell your friend come on. We want to make this party. It's like one of those B. Y. O.. Friend parties to join a dateable everybody in on this, so I heard this on another podcast and wanted to bring it up because I think it's true. It's like this day and age. Everyone has a podcast sometimes. When you tell your friend like check out this podcast, though like okay, whatever so I think it's like really giving them a taste of what they're. They're going to get. Maybe it's talking about a recent episode. That would be relevant to them, or it's just tagging them on our instagram, and they can kind of see what we're all about. We'll take it from there, so however you WanNa do it. I think one of the gifts of this time when we're all just like sorting through our shit is listening to podcasts.

00:25:05 - 00:30:03

Letting someone kind of you know be there when you need a time out sometimes for me, I listen to podcasts. Okay can't be looking at a screen anymore I'm just GonNa lay down on my couch. I don't even want to watch. TV Lay down, put on like Amazon Alexa and just like listen to podcasts, so let us let us help you out if you want a good pitch, this is what I said at the beginning of the episode. We're not a dating podcast anymore we are. We are striving to get to the bottom why people behave the way they do like the stuff that keeps you up. Up, at night the waiting by your phone, waiting for answers to trying to read each other's mind. That's we're trying to solve here because these are not some mysterious behavior that came out of nowhere. There's a reason and there's a reason very good reason for why people behave the way they do, so. That's how you can pitch us. Your prospect changed lives I mean there's been a lot of guests that are like it all totally different places. They were when they were guests. Because of US obviously. About US I. DO WANNA. Get to our sponsor. Thank you so much for making us happened. This is another great book by Kensington. Few weeks ago. We introduce you to a romantic thriller this week. We have a new book to recommend. It's called crushing it by Laura Parker. This exciting new romantic comedy combines humor, second chances and a good old fashioned love triangle in a thoroughly relatable tale about a woman, blossoming into her own learning the key to love get only be found by I, loving oneself sounds familiar. To listen to to the storyline Julie because you'll really relate to pay her new role, playing game at a European conference developer Sierra read needs to overcome her terror of up of public speaking. She competes in local bars, Diary Slam, retelling old journal entries her being obsessed with the college crush name Tristan Spencer, and then the moderator of this slam says next up trindon's penser so sierra mortified, but Tristan is flatter so caught up in memories of her decade old obsession as a reconnect. Won't give way because it is a love triangle there. Someone else involved and she's a decide. WHO's really in it for love. Check that book out crushing it by law rely Parker so you can read that book and check out many more just like it at Kensington Books Dot Com shall we learn about shitty husbands Julie. Let's do it. Let's do. Matthew Fray Away? I have to give everyone this story because it is something that has changed my relationship so I think it's important to give this backstory. The guest we have on today wrote in a blog. Article called the. She divorced me because I left dishes by the sink before I have ever met Matthew Fray or even had him as a guest on our show, my current boyfriends ex wife posted this article about three months after we started dating so I was like damn okay. I gotta read this. Ex. Wife is posting this. and. I won't go into the details of why this article really changed my life and my relationship but I do WanNa talk about how interesting it is to see from an outsider's perspective of other people's relationships, sometimes so I'll leave it at that, but let me just give a quick intro to Matt Frei. He is currently living just outside of Cleveland, Ohio. He's been there for fourteen years born. In Iowa, his parents divorced just before. Before his fifth birthday, and he moved with his mom to a small town in Ohio. He's forty one years old and he's divorced and he wrote a very popular blog posts. In addition to this one that went viral called an open letter to shitty husbands. He's also known as relationship coach that works with husbands on how to avoid. Divorce is also an author for the good men project. Hey Matt. How are you Hey Matthew? That was funny, though is. The fact that Julie also found you separately from. When this article was posted and we, she mentioned your name I was like. Fuck. Yes, we need on so bad. I need him as you do. We're going to hear all both for Matthew, but you know we're coming back to how this changes your relationship. I'm not letting you off on that one fully for sure, but I have to say when I just read the title of the article I literally went to a sink and I was like how many dishes. Now and there was a shit ton, and I was like. This is going to be the ultimate demise of our relationship, but that's not really the case, but before we get to I'm sure you're a wondering like. Is this article really about dishes? It's not obviously buff. I WANNA go back a little bit and ask Matt.

00:30:03 - 00:35:09

Were you a shitty husband? Would you have considered yourself selfish shitty husband? No, certainly not at the time. If that's the really dangerous part about this. When I wrote an open letter to city husband, and that's like fourteen volumes of that. I really did think about a lot of this stuff in the context. Context of right and wrong, good and bad asshole for Guy Eighteen months in the relationship coaching businesses really modified the way that I come at this certainly there people with ugly intentions to an ugly things out there that damaging relationships, but I think it really is true that a lot of really decent people do these things in their blind spots, and it's not so much doing a bad thing. It's that they're they're blind to what's happening whether or not paying attention, and then maybe doing a piss poor job validating the pains that are trying to be communicated after the fact. So, what was your story like what happened in your? Your own relationship that kind of spawned all this I. Just thought I was a nice guy. Right and I talked to a lot amount about this I talked to said. Let me guess you're pretty likable guy and you had a really decent sort of like upbringing and school, and with your family and a lot of positive feedback. Probably pretty good grades probably succeeded in all of your endeavors and right. You're successful at work, and when you meet people, most people like you, most people have things to say about you and the one person in your entire life. Who Complaints about you? Who suggests you have some potential character defects? Defects or that you're causing harm is the one person you promised to love and live with and sacrifice for all the days of your life, and so like statistically speaking. She's like the anomaly. It's so easy to dismiss this as like the weird thing, that's not like the rest you start defending yourself doing the groupthink thing with all the people that showered with praise that was me not that this a bunch of people like with feelings of adoration for me. I had really positive. Relationships did not make sense that I could be mean the I could hurt that. I could cause problems like that. I had a real problem with. Empathy and what words mean. I'm the same guy I'm just paying attention to how the things I do it. Don't do affect other people in a way that did not before and I think about very specifically the way I'm willing to engage. Somebody wants to talk to me about that. That's honestly the difference. Nothing changed other than that. In your article. You talk about this golf tournament. That was kind of like. The demise can go into that a little more. Wasn't in, so it wasn't like something specific. She wasn't like. Hey, you WANNA. Watch the masters in. It's gorgeous out. And I think we should go out as a family, so your ship person and I want to end the marriage now I just pulled that as a not unlike the dish by the sink as an example, in which I chose other things. Things over my wife and family, so that's different, right? That's not me invalidating her. That's not me defending myself necessarily, but it is choosing myself over her. That's the story where it's like. If I knew then what I know now a coup sitting on the couch, watching the masters, if he or she understands that's the difference between family. No family marriage numeric. On that in my blind spots and selfishness I was like I'm GonNa Watch Golf Piss off it'll carry. And it's gross when I when I think about it now. How long were you married for? We were together thirteen years married for nine of them so ridiculously long, but sort of long enough. How long ago was the divorce spoke seven years now? Seven years you know time flies yeah. The open letter to Shitty husbands was written and twenty thirteen, and still has legs out there, but I feel a little bad about it, because that's not how I want to approach man seven years later. Hey, should he husband you suck? Listen to my wife's divorce. Self is not the way. Win Did you become this wise divorce self? When did you come to all these self realizations really slowly, so what happened was wife left April, first twenty, thirteen very specific. WHAT TIME REMEMBER! Him three four six, okay. Don't remember, but shortly after work. Probably it was just all very bad. And then the marriage was legally ended a few months later, but that was a really rough time, and I sort of kicked her. Is it like breaking I I? Wasn't the same guy anymore I'd never felt that bad and it was. My first taste of a human being can carry around a lot of like pain damage inside while you're busy, not noticing. Right and so like I'm going to work. And the my world's ended in everybody. Else's carrying tearing up on business as usual and I'm like. Don't you know like the world ended like? How can you laugh and asked like everything's okay? That was like the moment and happen slowly when I sort of realized that put my wife in that same position, right? She's carrying around like all these pains, and just feeling of neglect and abandonment their never being validated, and they're visible like this whole time, so it was really selfish, though right.

00:35:09 - 00:40:05

How did I get to be like wise divorced guy? I was so afraid to hurt that bad again was so afraid to subject other people, my son I just didn't ever want anything like that to happen again, so I had to understand it and so I just I wrote it red eye blog, the like journey of self discovery, and it works like I mean. I'm saying. People are allowed to take exception to the things I think can feel for me at work, and even if it's not for everyone, there's a critical mass of people better like this is like what I need a straight man to say to mayor. Validate my experiences. How many volumes do you have now of this open letter? Shit haven't written 'em for a long time I can't remember when the last one was, but there are fourteen sort of like individual chapters in that. So how did you evolve the most from chapter chapter one to fourteen or so I was really whiny. An emo at the beginning right like Whoa is me. My wife left me I'm FETIG and now you. Some people might be like you're still those things. Maybe, but but I don't think so. I used to associate conversations about emotional intelligence in empathy, and these things related to a relationship pelfrey. Guy. Who played football right and I was like that guy. This is not the stuff we talk about in the locker room out with their friends. There's the sort of like weird, borderline sexist, macho component underneath some of these conversations, in the at least in the context of men and heterosexual relationships in the United States who grew up in environments like I. Don't know what that number is, but it's several million. Our inability to sort of deal with these things are a real problem, just not afraid of it anymore. Immune not I'm not. Not going to be ashamed of talking about things that impact everybody, so there's you and your wife just. Did you ever have any conversations along the way or was it just like out of nowhere? Kind of all these little things started to really build resentment in. That's when she called for the divorce. We had a million conversations along the way and the lion's share of my coaching work is about navigating those conversations more effectively so that you're not stuck in this like toxic cycle I call it the same fight like capital, T. as Like? The same fight happens over and over again. No matter how different the topic is, it's the same right in the same like sort of cycle, and it's gross, and then ends people all the time it ends. I'm really slowly so like people in year one of their relationship don't know this is the fight that will end him in your seven year eight year nine. It's really tragic, so if I may you stop me anytime you like Matt You. Don't get to dictate where we talk about you know. Keep going. I want you to know how I think about this. It's so important to me. The here is sort of like what happened as I was like working on myself. And thinking through all of this statistically speaking in the United States people, eighteen years of age and older fall into one of three camps. They're married. They were married. They intend to get married so ninety five out of a hundred people, which in the math way everybody, right? It's like statistically everybody around up to a hundred when he gets a ninety five. Statistically, everybody is impacted by marriage or relationships that more or less mere marriage, so everybody's GonNa do this or live like this? You know short of like Tibetan monks you know. Know people who take vows of Celibacy and five percent. Yes, you get it and people don't know that a routine conversation about a dish by the same about watching the masters on Sunday versus going out and taking a hike in the national park is going to honestly be on the list of things that ends your marriage right? Divorce is a really rough. Go for a lot of people, and when I put all that together when I think about all the people who are really good and really trying they enter this thing sort of like intentionally involuntarily, and they don't even know they don't even have the list of like. Hey, here's the shit that worry about because it's GonNa end you. Don't have a chance that terrifies me for them and their children, and that's why I do this now. Honestly, will you think of the big stuff like infidelity or Abusir? Like money like you don't think of what you just said exactly, it's exactly calm them. The major marriage crimes the major marriage. All the red flags like I'm GonNa go out drinking them. Come back I'm GonNa hit you. Don't call you names and the gambler money away. Nobody would tolerate that. That's insane. The danger is in the lights Niki Abuse. The me do it with a smile on my face and I don't even know him doing it when I. Tell you every time you come to him, and you say hey, my thing her or here's what I tell every client. Your wife partner comes to you and I have some female clients by the way this is exclusively a man problem. The as respectfully to man. And and I and I don't like to blame linked to blame me, so let me talk about it that way.

00:40:05 - 00:45:00

My wife would come to me and here's the three ways I always responded. Hey, Matt, a bad thing happened feel shitty about it and one of the three ways I responded is no it didn't. Happen at all. Here's what happened. The second respond is oh, that happened, but why are you acting that way about it? That doesn't make sense at all definitely overreacting. The third way is I would like taking the information. It said well sure, but let me explain why, and then I'd go into some like a brilliant analysis of white made so much sense for me to do it. So observation number one. Your feelings never matter ever no matter what right? That's the common denominator, and that's the thing that's going to end a culture of safety and trust in your relationship and your dot. That goes away, and you don't believe your partner is GonNa. Come around on it. You're done, but the thing that like really got me about that last. By the way, people can do this like a really solid high character. Character human being can try to set the record straight can try to say hey. I don't think you should feel that bad about. It's not a big deal and a really good human can explain why they did something attentional. This is not this gross asshole behavior, but when we defended by trying to explain why we did it, we also mathematically promise. We're going to do it again. I'd only. Did you feeling some outer? Justified it and I just basically said Barrio. I'm doing this again. Is a spouse who feel shit on every day an unseen and invisible and unloved, and all the things like. How is she supposed to like? Make that choice or he? If if it's that scenario, make the choice to like choose that over and over and over again at some point, a person has to choose between their their wellness, and and that's what I made my wife to. She had to choose between giving up half of our son's childhood. He was four. She had to sacrifice seven years of his life as he loving, adoring mother, or like live with May. When I realized that was the position I put her in, and she chose to sacrifice seven years of her son's life. Really put it in perspective for me. Let's go back to your examples of how you can respond to your partner, because I do want to bring back, would I spoke about in the beginning when leaving the dishes in the sink. Let's use that example and why it could be detrimental to a relationship. Let's just peel back. Back the layers of the dishes in the sink so there couple ways you can deal with the situation as you say to her. No I don't want to, or you can say. Why is that a big deal? We can throw in the dishwasher or you can say. Why don't you do it or something? You know something along the lines of that and surface level. It doesn't seem like a very big deal, but in your article you. You talk about it's not. The dish is not the act of leaving the dishes in the sink. It's a fact that leaving the dishes in the sink is so important to her that your ignoring her needs and her feelings. It's not not about the dishes right. That's exactly right. It's the conversation about what is allowed to matter to another human, being a myself and a lot of people think their opinion about matters to another person should should. Should have merit like in the world in this scenario I promise you're not trying to not answer this question I feel like it's all the same conversation. The three ways we respond to a person who comes to us and says hey, this shit things going on and I. Don't feel good about it. The thing that starts that cycle that response pattern is that we're judging whether we think you should or should not feel as you do. Very first mental action. We're taking evaluating whether it's okay for you to think or feel effect, and that is why I'm like guys. I'm like you have to notice. You're doing this. I always had this book next to me I'm talking to people. It's James. Clearly. Cabinets has nothing has nothing to do with relationships, but I try to make everything about relationships when I come across that cool ideas, yeah! Right! I started to I started to like apply like this sort of idea of neuroscience to this. Can you notice yourself judging your partner's feelings trying to make some sort of judgment about it? Can you agree it's not useful? And then can you interrupt that process in instead of choosing this leg judgment evaluation process? Can you instead choose a validation and curiosity? How about if you don't get it? You seek to understand instead of being. So I have this happened actually to me not in a romantic sense. When I lived with my roommate for five years we live together for very long time, so it was almost like we were in a relationship living together right and I admit that I was that person that left dishes in the sink, and it really pissed her off. Really pissed her off and I think for a long time. I didn't Wanna I was totally guilty of what you said. Even as a woman like I was like who cares. It's the dishes like who cares right and I think where her anger came finally we were able to like really sit down and talk about it was that it felt like it was just the.

00:45:00 - 00:50:06

The dishes that she felt like I didn't pull my weight around the home in general, so it was like one more little thing, and it's like I'm doing all this stuff like I'm cleaning the bathroom and I'm doing all this. You can't put this one dish away like it. kind of like minimizes everything else that they're doing in once. She said it. I totally felt empathy for it. So I think it's a double edged because agreeing with you like I think men women whoever should be empathetic and understand it, but also it's the way it's communicated to. Because the way she talked to me, made me not want to do the dishes. Built up like she. She exploded probably at you. She talked to me like she actually worked with like special needs children in the way she taught me about like she was addressing her students I'm not unlike saying. Way, but that's how it felt like it was very demoralizing in demeaning in literally made me want to do the opposite so i. think that Yeah I think it's a it's. It's both parties here. I'm not faulting your wife and. Your wife, but I think it's more of like. How do you have this conversation? That really gets the root of it, so it's really not about the dishes at the end of the NIA. We can't put the onus on the perpetrator. Get we also to. People have to communicate. So how should this news be delivered or this? These needs? Let's take a moment right now and acknowledged that this episode is brought to. To you by best beams. You've all heard me talk about this game. Before it kept popping up on best of lists of games at download, especially during this time of social distancing and I'm so glad I did. It's free to download, and basically takes you through a series of challenging puzzles that are fun, but also engage your brain. That's really important I like that. It's a casual game that I can play during. Down time I have, and if features these really cute bug characters in a game that just make me smile every time I. See them I'm now a level. One hundred, eighty five, and there are now three thousand levels I'm best means so I have a lot of catching up to do I love that. They update the game monthly with new levels events so and never. Never gets old. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters trust meet with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play. Download best teams free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the best teams now back to the show. How should this news be delivered this these needs? That's funny. Funny and so I have a lot of female clients right who are more or less, the equivalent of my wife in my marriage right and they're calling it like how do I do this? Actually had this conversation like two hours ago and so one of the first things I always talk about. Is this idea of disassociating character from it? Can we start there, can we? We agree that if he's a bad guy, a fundamentally bad human being that it does not make sense for you to be in that relationship like you just should if he is or she is out to get you in sabotage union life have values boundaries and protect yourself like you deserve that, so you know you're worth after we establish that he's not doing that. Right he's not like intentionally waking up and saying I'M GONNA try to Chit over my wife's life today. Make our marriage horrible Dan. It's. Can we agree that the same fight that you have every single day has never worked yet. I can. We agree that? In the context of data trends doing the same thing isn't GonNa like like play at all. So. I'm always encouraging a slightly modified version of communication where we're emphasizing the fact that we don't believe you're doing this to cause the pain that I feel I am in the spirit of cooperation. Trying to just let you know that this thing you're doing that. You do not perceive to be harmful or painful I experience as harmful and painful, and then right, and then we have this problem with it. It's really really hard to when you're pissed in like who the hell am I to like? Start telling people how they should behave I was on a podcast. PODCAST with like a lady, his marriage counselor and she told me that she tells her clients not to not to talk about anything. They perceive to be important if they're like. Emotions are registering at a three or above on the leg, zero to ten scale, and she talks about like like the chemical neuroscience of that and your brain starts much like fight or flight responses and things like added your shittier versions of yourself than you than you otherwise could be, and she's like if you can have like a packed like a code to just not go there. Or what if you're always both trying to keep it at three or less, I mean imagine like your mindfully trying to always keep like everyone's emotions at this like nice comfortable place, and both are actively participating in that nobody's ever inciting anything, and you're constantly seeing somebody that's looking for your best interests. Instead of what always happens right. Then you said something to things that I. Think are really interesting. One is that this person has your best intentions like you've separated the people that don't right and I remember.

00:50:06 - 00:55:07

There was this dating coach Evan Mark Cats that I found when I was like in the thick of dating when I was like in my like mid twenties, and just totally clueless to. To be completely transparent and I remember like one of the things that was really set me apart was accused if he's your boyfriend or your husband or whatever he's not out there to get you and you need to remember that so I think that's like. Step one for people that are in this situation in the receiving atom, not going to say that the. The people that are doing things should not change as well, but that's one way that you can kind of interpret things different, and I love that you hit that point also, but then the other side that I heard from someone was like. If you can start conversations with like like I, love you in this is what's happening or like something positive so when? When you're having it, it doesn't feel like an attack to someone. It's more of just like we're in this together and I. WanNa share why this is hurting me, and it's not that I wanted to abandoned you in the relationship I just WanNa work to make it better. That's at least by thoughts. Try really hard to not be in the business of. Like asking wives to do things differently. When they're in this dynamic, this classic sort of like what perceived to be the most common like uncomfortable marriage or this dynamics at play, and the guy is sort of this constant invalidated, and the wife is doing the the invisible load. Thing that you you talked about earlier. Really appreciate you sharing that story by the way that was such a great demonstration of how this is not exclusively dislike man. Man Woman thing. This isn't this exclusively like heterosexual marriage thing, this dynamics existent lots lots of relationships, conversations were have right now applied to things much bigger than me going on socially in the world right now right you can, you can apply all of these same ideas about other people's experiences too much more than just romantic relationships, but okay, so the the other side. I WANNA. Bring into this is. Example with an accent I've had where all he wanted to do was avoid conflict and appease me, so I would say. Can you please put the dishes away? Can you please take out the garbage? Can you please do this? And he would say yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and keep doing it, but he would also keep leaving dishes in the saying. Keep garbage out, but every time I asked him to do it, he. He would do it so then. What this ended up building was of annoyance from my side because I'm like yes. Yes, you do it, but you keep doing the same thing and to him. It built up so much resentment because it reminded me of what you wrote in your article was about me. Being his mother I felt like I was mothering him a. he felt like I. was his mother telling him to do? Do his chores. So this is like the other. The other side of the spectrum is like a couple trying to avoid conflict. How do they really communicate their needs to each other and not just appears each other well, it's one person accepting responsibility for not passively letting all of life management fall to the other right, the the mental load, the visible load, emotional labor, usually N, N, male female relationships that showing up as As wife Mother, being the administrator of all things in the house, right large and small it's it's remembering to get a birthday present for their nephew, David and like you know planning social events and I don't even have to like. Go through the list. Everybody just knows what that looks like, and it's so comment for wives and mothers to be sort of stuck doing that. UH, husband isn't doing anything wrong. He's not. Like just like I'm not causing harm in like the race relations conversation, right? I'm not out there doing anything bad, but maybe I need to take a hard look at how my inaction is like participating in something. That's maybe not okay. Right for people. That's the same conversation relationships. How is your lack of participation harming other people and I don't think it's like a super nuanced idea. There's very real things to manage right and life and the US time this. There's so much more when you have a marriage and a couple of kids so right so here's what moms have doing. She's now got like. Manage life for everybody for herself. Maybe she's like a VP like at an office somewhere, right? There and all these things she got a man. She's gotta come home. Just gotTa take care of like Joey and Sally and all their dentist appointments, and like hallmark and things like that you know, make sure like dinner is at least managed if she's not like making it herself, she's usually the one that's like think of it and make sure somebody's going to the store. Even if she's not doing it herself in that tiny amount, so I wrote I wrote an article once called. She feels like your mom and doesn't want to bang. After, years of that, I am doing this for my my son Joey. At my husband, right? The list of Shit I do every day is identical from my children to my partner, and the children don't bother me because I knew what I was signing up for.

00:55:07 - 01:00:05

But this person promised to love an honor me and support me all the days of my life yet. He's absolutely requires the same amount of care that my children do. because. It's super healthy for adults to not WANNA. Sleep with children. Sense it makes sense that you wouldn't want to stay with somebody who is like in that role than like making you feel that way. Right I mean I. Think it and listen. That was me I'm just busy like Derby print around. Video Games online poker, and all the things, and and then defending myself for like being nice. Chet everybody cares yeah cares I abandoned you to be the only adult only person actively working on the marriage, no wondering. Oh wonder you don't think I'm like attractive. Well I. Think like what You A. You brought up about having to ask someone all the time that starts to really Wayne on you. Also it's like Oh. My God am I really asking them to do this simple thing one more time, and it's not following through. And why do I have to ask? Why can't they just do it? I think that's like it builds up resentment, but I think what I was trying to say. Earlier of taking ownership of yourself and I totally agree with you that it should not fall on the woman, or whoever is that person I? I agree with you. I think where I was coming from with that. Is that in the end of things? The only person you can control is yourself right in some ways like this is great. All of this is fantastic, but what, if like your husband or significant other is just not thinking this way like. How do you even get them to be aware of this? Because I agree like I? Don't want to be the person that has to start every thing like I love you, but or I have to ask you to do stuff like that's going to build resentment. What are their options? Do we have if we're in a situation where someone's doing this? What if I told you? My wife had to and our family at our marriage for me to get it, or if it told you that almost everybody I've talked to has to be on the verge of divorce or have really uncomfortable conversations. Where like that's communicated right like I'm going to break up with you. I'm going to divorce you I'm not sure I love you anymore like it almost has to there for blind guy to join that conversation. Be something that rises to the level of triggering his holy Shit. This matter I. Stand that that's true, but and I'm not even saying is I don't claim to be an expert on any of this stuff that is might observe Asian for seven years is that there are not an enormous amount of is who are going to do this cycle of defensiveness and being like rarely the dish that will just sort of like evolve into this emotionally intelligent. Intelligent person who gives a shit about it I've not seen that play out this organic way once in awhile. I get lucky and I get some super flattering like emailer blog comment. It's like Oh, my God I see it. Thank you for telling the story. because this like validates like are worship reinforces things. My Wife said, but imagine that imagine being that wife. Five years ten years divorced by Internet, says it, and now you're listening. Well I. Actually think we're my point of like starting it, I love you and like I admit I have not been in a long term relationship of like ten years plus right like I don't know I haven't been there myself I think that tactic might work at the beginning, and then after a certain amount of time like I agree with you. Maybe the like. It can't just be that forever because that's like the resentments going to build so i. hope someone at least listening. I think a lot of our. Our listeners aren't there yet like we do have some people that are married. That are in relationships that they might be like okay. Yeah, this is a reality in mind, but I think why we WANNA. Do this episode with you is like. How do we reach? People aren't in that situation, so they're aware of this. Like what steps can people take now if they're not in the thick of it? I'm so glad that you're talking about that, right? That's the end game here like you know if we're going to. Fix It but if we're going to address this. Young people have to have conversations I'm talking like right. The school age kids. Can we teach them about the French Indian war geometry, and you know like different kinds of geologic rock formation, so we don't teach them about the things that will break that if it goes bad when there are no holes and I. Don't understand why. This is a conversation that's missed just kind of through the school years and And just in general family lives, but I haven't met anybody that like yeah, I grew up. We talked about this kind of thing all the time. Please please identify your core values in your boundaries and do not let people fuck with you like. Don't let Nice dudes fuck with you because they seem nice in your parents like them, and they have a job or whatever make sure when you speak.

01:00:05 - 01:05:01

Speak about the things that you value matter to you. If you're not getting communication or action that demonstrates that you are respected and seeing it will equal really shit life if you end up intertwining writing married or otherwise, if you start pulling your resources and live in the same house, and just share lives it poisons, and it does it so slowly that don't notice until you've spent five ten fifteen. Fifteen years right, and this thing that just got poisoned like really really really slowly as what's so terrifying to me about it and the people causing the harm in air quotes. Honestly not all of them now like right. If you have like a little like magical fairy, nearly K., this is harmful. It'd be like oh well. I'll choose a different thing, but when you try to save, that's harmful diagnose. dish. A dish. Right I think it's just about so much about changing the narrative around marriage and we've talked about this in previous episodes. Is that somehow it's acceptable to say for my girlfriend's to say oh. I have two kids and one big kid, because then they include their husband in that story, and everyone laughs about it, and we're like Your husband's a big kid or the. Of A. Once you get married, your wife becomes your mother and everyone laughs about Isn't that the? Funding and we just kind of accept this narrative because portrayed in media. It's what we've seen in our parents as well and for anybody WHO's not in a relationship or thinking about getting into a relationship, I think we all just need to sit up with ourselves and just change what you perceive marriage to be, and we can't just accept what other people. People have told US marriage is to be because when you do that. You just kinda except the behaviors and self fulfilling prophecy. It just keeps repatriating, so we gotTA redefine what you're saying. Matt is redefined your values and what you expect from a marriage and make sure that it's what you want, and not what you think. Society is telling you shish page. Stop and I think a lot of people get married because exactly what you said they they just grow up and they see it. Getting married and you know maybe they feel like their biological clock is ticking so to speak, or in all my friends and cousins, and all these things and right. My parents San when he can have babies. I want to be a grandparent. There's a million different versions of that story A. Maybe you're just dating for three years and it feels really bad, but you're afraid to start over again. Again right, it's like well. I've caught all this time. Invested GonNa. Find anybody better. You know what you might not find anybody better. That's not what I'm talking about. This is not about trading up. It's not about replacing human beings. It's everybody has the same problems like everybody has the same weaknesses so to speak by. WHO's GONNA choose to like? Show up for you and it's. It's really really. The same guy that leaves dishes by the say, but I'm not going to disrespect you if you tell me it hurts you now and I'm sure as hell knocking. The sink, if I understand that you perceive that to be a sign of disrespect relationship, right? How do you start having these conversations like early on because I think a lot of it does stem from generals right? It's like there's a lot that was expected of women that men didn't like I. Think like the stuff that you said is in a way stereotypical. It's like I won't do the dishes or I'll watch sports like that is very stereotypical gender roles, and we are now in a society where we don't want that right we want. Want more equality. We don't want that to happen. But how do you even get to a place? Where one person recognizes that they're not carrying the load? Like? How do we get there to begin with in the context of this super per stereotypical conversation that is not entirely fair to one hundred percent of the people right where it's like men passively leading these things fall to women, the invisible load, emotional labor, this this idea of validating people's feelings and having healthy communication, these are like classic. Common symptoms are showing up in heterosexual relationships. Relationships over and over and over again. I hate that the onus sorta falls on women in the situation, but I'm afraid that it might in the context of dating and so let me ask you if you don't mind when you're sitting at that dinner table on that first state, or wherever or second or third. You know you're right. When is it okay to win? When do you feel safe bringing up big ideas that hint at this possibility of like. Are you afraid to say it? Because you don't WanNa, let communicate to the guy. Guy That you're thinking about long-term. Because maybe it'll scare them off and and you want him to like you. With all kinds of reasons I'm afraid to like. Be Honest when I want somebody to like me on the other side of the table. Right I've embraced this idea of this is all the shit that's wrong with me is everything this sucks about me I want you to understand it, because am self aware and be want you to get it I. I want relationships to fail fast. Fail fast I think that's the way honesty. So have that conversation really early of just like this is what I'm looking for so me on the alternative right.

01:05:01 - 01:10:13

What's the argument for the one that drags out two years and ends miserable? We all do that like I. Mean I did it again forty one now, but you know. I've had that scenario. Play out right where it's like a year or two and then. I just wish people would. It's so hard and so hard to say that to somebody on the front into marriage is really easy for me to sit here. Right got a split time fifty fifty, and not see my son half the time and I don't like that ramp to feel like regret an, and you know some residual pain lesson around whining about it anymore, but it's not pleasant that I'm divorced forty one year, old guy who sees his son at the time, not like a badge of honor or anything, so it's easier for me to champion the virtues of like enforcing. Enforcing your boundaries early and radical honesty, and be courageous and I would have never done that. When I was twenty twenty five years old so right like I'm trying to be like realistic about what's out there, but I would just encourage people to choose courageousness, because you're not going to be happy with your life. If you sort of end up with somebody who isn't going to honor your values. That's such a great some advice. I think that the people that aren't even asking those hard questions at the beginning. We talk about that a lot of like we'd rather figure it out. Earlier in, not have it momentum war. We're just totally incompatible so hundred percent with you on that, but I feel like where I F- I questioned. A little is like if I'm on a date, because I'm very upfront early on, and someone's like. Yes, I totally agree on equality sharing responsibilities, and that's them saying something, but what happens when it doesn't go into practice. Practice because I think people have good intentions for the most part, but sometimes the follow through. Isn't there like? How do you then have those conversations well? What does that look like right? A lot of the stuff materializes when you share space. A ton of these conversations emerge when you're when your roommates and or spending a lot of time together or quarantine together. How when in a scenario in which you have two different addresses, and you are just seeing each other once a week twice a week I don't know how. How would that conversation organically emerge? I'm not sure I think the conversation that would show up is the like emotional labor invisible load situation the dish by the sink per se. I think it's the hey. This happened that I felt bad situation like that's the one where it's like. Trying to like decide for me whether it's okay or not okay for me to feel but things I feel. That would be to me the early relationship thing to like. Talk. Got It like hey, in now like you're great and I would really like this thing to work out, but one thing I'm not going to tolerate is a human being who thinks they get to decide for me whether my feelings have MIRA whether my beliefs have merit, I'm not gonNA. Choose to be with somebody, and so the brave thing is. Can you courageously communicate that without any? Don't have to write. This is to be a threat. It doesn't have to be mean it can be I. Really would love this to work, but it's not good for either of us for me to just feel bad of time simply not going to do it. Anyway, I just write the whole. Choose yourself thing. You're good enough, and you're worth it and choose yourself. And I pointed at me earlier. I really am not. Like a horrible person and that's the whole thing. It doesn't matter that I'm not horrible. It doesn't mean I can't hurt you. It doesn't mean being in a relationship. We can't result in your life. Being painful and worse I don't think it would be today, but like right. Hypothetically, all of these really great people out there it has one has nothing to do with the other, and so you can't measure just on the show. Show kind the so nice and the so funny and they're so smart. It's not even about that. It's you have to have intentional conversations about what it means to show up for. Somebody and everybody gets to decide for themselves and my fear is that people that are twenty to twenty five? Maybe don't even always know how to define the personal values and boundaries I. Don't blame them, because I didn't either but I mean. I. Really do think that is the beauty of dating. If that you're constantly trying to figure out where your boundaries are what your needs are, what your values are I would say in my current relationship. Our roles are a little bit flipped for the longest time I thought I was just the perfect girlfriend, because none of my exes have ever expressed their needs. Needs or some sort of unhappiness with me so I just assumed I was killing it at this girlfriend game and my boyfriend right now is the first one to really call me out and not call me out in a way. That's saying I. Don't like it when you do this, but the way he frames is a really means a lot to me when. When you do this and that puts it in perspective for me because it's not about the action is that it means a lot to him and I think that's will. We can put into practice even more and I wish I had done this in my early. Dating career is just put it in perspective of it means a lot to me when the when. When my partner does this for me? And so when people are dating in the in the very beginning of a relationship, even though the dishes and the trash, and whatever that those are scenarios that come up? Maybe he's just practicing those statements with each other and say it really means a lot to me wing, you do X Y, and Z so you A.

01:10:13 - 01:15:21

Matthews article changes urination ship coming back to you. But I'm coming back. How do you think hearing? This type of stuff started conversations for you and change your relationship, and I think you know you and I talked about this on a previous episode, which was when we first started dating. I had a stake in the ground about my identity. It was like I'm an independent woman I decide when I sleep over at your place I. Decide when I leave your place. I have full control of my life. Fuck you if you don't like me. That kind of mentality, and so we had a lot of conflict or Conflict just a lot of conversations about win I can sleep over and at first, I didn't want to give up my my control and the way he framed it to me was even though, and I appreciate you being independent woman. That's what attracted me to you in the first place. It means a lot to me when you sleep over in the way he framed. It really helped me take my guard down and I think it's not really about me the situation it's about how I can cater to my partner's needs and I would say this and I. I can't believe I'm saying this out loud I. I would have to express some gratitude for his ex wife, who probably planted the seed for something like this so that he's able to act on it in his next relationship because I can guarantee you. He probably ought express in this way in his marriage right so do you think that he or I? Mean I guess in a way? He kind of had the same situation that matthew did that ended in divorce like. Do you think that the same revolution was made from these experiences? And how did that affect your car relationship? You Know I. Won't speak directly to his relationship because I just don't want. High unfair to to bring up details, but I will say from overall observation of all the divorce. Men I've talked to these little things only come up in couples counseling, and then they get blindsided. They're like wait I. Don't know that putting the laundry was so important to you that really why? We're in couples counseling and the wife. Her mind is already five years ahead. She's already projecting to five years from now because you know put. Put the laundry and the dishes. You left our kid in kindergarten. Because you're like you forgot to pick up our because you're so irresponsible like her. Mind is already skyrocketed elsewhere. So that's where the disconnect is in that relationship. Is that to him? He still catching up to her. She's already five years ahead and I really do think that your article can really plant the seed at least for a lot of relationships, and it's not just. Just men because I, sure as hell am and very guilty for this is planting the seed, and just shifting your perspective on the situation, and for a lot of women, we also need to state our needs without having the men in our lives, trying to read between the lines. I think that's what drives a lot of people crazy is that we have to just be more direct. It's not about the dishes that it means a lot. Lot To me, it means a lot to me when you clear the dishes from the sink. I don't want to defend like vagueness because I. I couldn't agree more directness would help so much, but I do wanna be like a tiny bit of athletic about it. A lot of women are being really really mindful of the way they speak because they're thinking about all of the ways in which what they say next my impacted person, right? I don't WanNA cause a fight I. DON'T WANNA. Make him feel bad i. don't what it read. That's like the emotional labor. That's like I'm responsible for managing everybody's feelings around here so I mean I. Don't know you tell me like I'm full of it, but I feel like a component of that like lack of clarity is sometimes just them trying to keep the peace the best they can. Yes, yes, that's a really fair point. Because if you look at all the women's magazines, women's publications, it's always like how to speak husband. Speak how to talk to your man how to avoid conflict and relationship, and I, sure as hell have nauseating those articles in like men's health, right? I think you're totally right. I think for for so many decades now. Women have been taught how to meet their partner. But I think it's it's time for men to also step up and also meet US halfway somewhere. Yeah, that's a really good segue to takeaways and I. Think there's so many parallels just everything that's going on in the world right now is it's on us to educate ourselves right like if you're the one that isn't showing up and taking full responsibility, it shouldn't have to be your partner. Partner nagging you in doing that. Because that's going to just keep building resentment and I think what else I'm getting from this whole conversation and your blog and your coaching. All of this is the earlier we can start the better like before the stone becomes a problem like having this as an awareness like in looking at off relationships in your lives, not just romantic ones were this types of things show up, but I think romantic is amplified because you're like sharing household with that person I love this idea.

01:15:20 - 01:20:14

Idea of just starting these conversations early whether it's shared values and I think almost like what I've heard in. This conversation is like there's like two things that are really coming out. It's like one. Does this person listen to me like when I express stuff? How did they react to just get defensive versus do they want to change? They WanNa get better because I think that's one thing and the other piece is how much action to they actually do right like there's one thing to always say like I. I think you brought. The South is like you've had partners that are just like Yup Yup and then they don't do it. And then that just builds war resentment, so I think it's like having the conversations, but then also the follow up action. Yeah, I really love that I think my biggest takeaway is your actions matter just as much as the actions you do not take. The inaction can be just asked detrimental in a relationship, and for all the couples out there because I've spoken to many of. Of You. Who are in quarantine? Who are having these really hard situations and uncomfortable conversations take it as a great thing because you need to have these uncomfortable situations and conversations in order to move forward and evolve your relationship, and if you're just trying to keep the peace and not speak, and not take the action than it all builds up underneath, and that's exactly how earthquakes happen, right? They build up and then one day. You're completely rattled and your relationship is exactly where you don't want it to be. Be So I really appreciate that piece of reminder that you gave us. Matt I also love this idea of every time. Your partner asks you to do something or makes a request. Your partner's actually asking you to show up for them in that relationship, so maybe it's just do a quick translation your head when your partner asks you to take out the trash translation babe, can you please show up from this relationship I? Think for me. That really helps because it lets my guard down my pride sometimes. Sometimes gets in the way I can to sweep it off to the side and think I need to show up for my partner and prioritize him, and there is a stat right out there that women are the ones that usually initiate divorce because I think a lot of time. Yeah, it gets to that point where they're just done. Yeah, I, think this getting ahead of it this early and often and matthew you live and breathe this stuff, but is there any takeaways or closing remarks? You have just the. The things you talked about and it's seven out of ten I believe statistically I. I don't know the exact number of divorces filed on average every day in the United States, but it is seven out of ten initiated by women you as sort of used like the earthquake analogy and I've always used the smoking. In nineteen sixty analogy and nineteen sixty people were smoking on airplanes in classroom, so with the windows rolled up in their car in their babies in the backseat, and nobody thought twice about it. Smoke that was what people did, and then life happened and the American Cancer Society gone evolved, and there's a bunch of medical data and we're like Holy Shit. This is bad for you. Get Cancer and now today twenty twenty and several years ago, everybody started to figure it out. Are Now a society that fundamentally understands smoking equals this bad thing. Very few people smoke relative to per capita for the nineteen sixties and to me. That's what this has to be. People were doing things in. In one thousand nine hundred sixty that was harming their health would eventually kill them without honestly without having any awareness that what they were doing would eventually killed imagine, and that's what I think. Relationship Health is like today. People engage in activities that will end. You hurt you or hurt them, and there's no way you would choose that. That's not what you would choose. You just don't even connect those dots so I think, a lot of people are innocently lined League unaware early on. Living these things and and I hope we can eventually be having conversations where people think of a lot of these things that harm relationships in the way that we think about smoking today. I am aware caused problems. I'm going to actively choose to not be a part of it. That is a great analogy. That's really fantastic. I think that's something. We all need to hear right now, and we've gotten quite a few requests from couples who are going through a really difficult time right now. What is something that you can leave them with and I don't think we need to go into like spiritual. Woo Shit like. Everything's GonNa. Be Fine Love. Love each other and put each other i. mean that's great, but what is something really practical? You can give them that maybe will help them get through today. Ask a question that you may not even WANNA handsome. You have a largely shemale audience, or is it pretty diverse male female, DNR very diverse earth? So, let me let me like do the stereotype thing and talk to the guys and I apologize because I know that this is not one size fits all in.

01:20:14 - 01:25:01

It never will be, but if you're a guy, and if you identify with the story of I always respond to my partner, one of three ways I correct her I. Say Hey, that did half of your feelings or a little bit out of whack like? Why are you reacting way or you explain yourself? Yourself in defendant or the kind of person that does that and again it's not like you're a bad guy for doing that. You just do it I. Did it every day of my marriage probably try to notice that you do it and just try to replace that habit with seeing that. Hey, my partners afraid my partners angry. My partner said when I am angry. I'm afraid when I'm sad, this is how I want people to show up from so I'm going to. Choose to show up for them and I'M GONNA. Just try to get busy. Understanding how that thing that's completely out of line of sight could have made them feel that way. If you engage in, that's not it sounds like women comprehensive than it is just try to figure out what the problem is trying to figure out how he or she could come to that conclusion, and if you do that instead of. Of the thing where you judge them and try to correct it, it will change your life. It will like that little simple. Seemingly ridiculous action will change everything if you're with someone who feels regularly invalidated when they try to communicate what's going on in their hearts and minds love that that rate I mean I agree that's like the boasts impactful thing anyone can do. Are you currently dating? What's your status? Strategically didn't answer that question. I know I. Hook though. I. I see one person and I'm this place in life? Where like I? Don't know what to do with myself right? So like know nobody's talking marriage, but know hanging out for like a year and she's she's lovely and you know it's. It's really gross. How much better I am treating like someone I'm dating today versus. This guilt complex about it every day. That's growth though. She's really cool, not sure she wants to be. My son's stepmother. have no idea you are. This is the most in depth conversation about. Wow, honestly how? Glad, we got it and do you want to get married again? See I'm not I'm not marriage. Advocate I'm not. It's marriage I'm against people who want to get married getting divorced and feeling horrible. Because of the things they don't know will harm. That's the real at crisis here in my estimation I don't. I don't really care people, get married or not I just want them to be equipped with what they need to know. If they do I. figure I'll know if I WANNA. Marry somebody, right. It'll like me really apparent Minna funny plays. My is about to turn twelve. I've a lot of insane things going on in my personal life with all of this. Right when reach out to him in the world changed. When we talked I didn't have agents. Now have agents when we talked I wasn't thinking about books and television, but now I'm having conversations about books television amazing at this insane upside down sort of world I. Find Myself In when I start mixing commerce a dating in that it's I'm not sure what to say. I don't know. But if people do reach out to you, how can they find you? All right so my blog is called must be this tall to ride dot com, and honestly that's really that's really the path right now, and hopefully they'll be some others in the relatives near future summit will link in our show notes to that as well. Thank you so much, and they can find coaching services with you on their also yeah sure China to be like a horror about it right? Now like I mean I want I want to help I'm here to help. I should say I'm here to try to help if somebody thinks that I might be able to. I'm not out there like saying. Hey. I'm answer to your problems I. I'm not convinced that I am sometimes sharing. My story helps another person say that's a lot like me. And then they draw the same conclusions, and just maybe that leads to them, not going through what I would be more importantly, the partner not going through what. What my ex Winston right really appreciate you speaking from the heart and sharing your story, and also just it's a very humbling conversation that we just had about the realities of relationships, not just marriage relationships, these relationships could be also just platonic relationship to and how much that can impact the rest of your life, and so it again really appreciate you you coming on the show and sharing your perspective. Thank you so much, thank you before we let go where there's going to hold them. Hostage and deliver. Announcement that if you like this episode of you like our other episodes, please leave us review and apple podcasts again. We're able to get a great guests like Matt. Because we have the ratings and the reviews that we do, and we want to continue getting everyone the content that we really wanNA. Put out there, so please.

01:25:01 - 01:26:09

It takes two seconds, rating or write some nice words. Much much appreciate it or a friend. You leave us a review and then tell a friend. All right, so we're GONNA out this up stay slow. But dateable podcast is part of the FROLIC podcast network. Find more podcast. You'll love at frolic. Dot Media Slash podcast. Want to continue the conversation I. Follow us on Instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag as an any post with the Hashtag, stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those then head over to our website. dateable PODCASTS DOT COM there. You'll find all the episodes as As well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. Russell downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.

Dateable Podcast
Yue Xu & Julie Krafchick

Is monogamy dead? Are we expecting too much of Tinder? Do Millennials even want to find love? Get all the answers and more with Dateable, an insider’s look into modern dating that the HuffPost calls one of the ‘Top 10 podcasts about love and sex’. Listen in as Yue Xu and Julie Krafchick talk with real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes, and first moves to first loves. Whether you’re looking to DTR or DTF, you’ll have moments of “OMG-that-also-happened-to-me” to “I-never-thought-of-it-that-way-before.” Tune in every Wednesday to challenge the way you date in this crazy Dateable world.