If you're into attachment theory & personality types, prepare to have your mind blown as we chat with Dr. Avigail Lev, PsyD about how our thought patterns and beliefs (aka our schemas) shape everything from how we show up for relationships to which partners we choose. We discuss how early childhood shapes how we show up in relationships today, the love traps we tend to fall into due to our beliefs, and how you can change your behavior to have the love life you've always wanted.
Learn more about Dr. Avigail Lev and her services at CBT Online and Bay Area CBT. Take the relationship schema quiz to find out your own: https://bayareacbtcenter.com/relationship-schema-quiz
Thank you to our partners for this episode:
BetterHelp: Get 10% off your first month of online therapy at betterhelp.com/dateable with the code DATEABLE
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S11E18: How you're wired (for relationships)
00:00:01 - 00:05:01
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
What's everyone welcome to another episode of dateable. Show all about modern dating where we dig into the whys of people's behavior in the wise of your own behavior and this episode in particular. We really go deep into the whys before we get into a like. Why why are we talking about this. We just want to say thank you all for attending our community livestream last week. It was a great turnout. Awesome engagement and some really discussions about navigating the holidays and loneliness and the feeling of the these weird feeling so we get around the holidays and i think we came to some really good solutions and tactics. Yeah it's a weird year. Everyone can say that. Like holidays are definitely not the same and i think there is a question about you. Know what about the do yours cast like what about. Something is just not going to happen this year. If unless of course you're a committed relationship that you are with them quarantining or whatever is going on in your specific state but we were talking about it and it's definitely a difficult year for people but you know. I think one of the things that has helped me is that nothing is forever like we talked about if you look at pandemic history like there's in the nineteen twenties came out really strong with like the roaring twenties. So i think that's how i get through. It is like maybe there's gonna be some really great years following this recession. Spent temic all the shit that's happening at twenty twenty and we can't forget that we are in control of our lives and our emotions and our feelings so if you are disappointed or upset because you can't spend the holidays with your family or with your friends or a spent a new year's eve with someone special. Those are sort of factors. You can't really control because of the pandemic right now. But there are certain factors. You are in control of for example. I am in control of what i can watch on netflix. And if i am looking forward to a particular show. I will put it in my calendar. I actually just signed up for hbo. Max love each session. Is there at the house of how is so good. There's the flight attendant. I've heard about that one. So haley right. Yeah i heard there's some really great stuff. That's why i sign up for it and my boyfriend and i are so excited to start on some of these shows. We've really just marked in our calendars. At least the soon to look forward to. I think also like. I've had some friends make the initiative to do like virtual secret santa or like a girl holiday party like via zoom. I think you know like yeah. It's not the best. It's not as good as a holiday. I like keep thinking about our holidays little gala. That we ask that. I got oso nicely provided about on facebook about how we've been going for five years and that's clearly happening but you know it is what it is like. It's still you can still spend quality time with people. Even if it's not the way you thought it was gonna be per se my boss at my other work. He has this thing where he and his group of friends get together once a week. Virtually and someone has to bring in something of entertainment like you're in charge of that call so he attended one last week where they had a magician on. He loved the magician so much he brought on brought him on company call and he was fantastic. The stuff that you can do over zoom because now the possibilities are endless with multimedia it was fantastic. He said every week. There's just something unique that you know every once in charge of bring in something. Yeah i know like people that we've definitely seen in our facebook group people down about dating right now to like. If you're in california our essentially back in quarantine. I mean other states could very much follow soon enough to and just in general even you're not in quarantine with like numbers up may not be necessarily although it's a little hard to be like like. Oh yeah i'm gonna meet all these new people what you see. This is such a risk but then on the other side it's like this has been life out for a year. It's going to be a year which is crazy and it's like it's up to us to not let are dating lives suffer either so i think i definitely have found some people. Aren't that receptive to video calls or especially now. Because i've been boston in my parents house. Maybe they don't wanna talk to. Because i'm not close by but i've also found people that are so it's like again. We talked about this at the early pandemic. Like maybe again. It's filter to see people's true intentions.
00:05:02 - 00:10:02
So it's not always a bad thing. It's all how you process things and you know but what we've learned from this episode today is sometimes we're wired to take things in differently and we're so excited about this conversation this with dr abigail love and i actually met dr love through a mutual friend. Who had on this podcast lowering core shak was also a marriage and family therapist and we had her on attachment. Theory is if you all remember that episode correct circular osa queue the bachelorette the no not you again her but i think this really came to light because we did personality types last season with james which was also very popular episode. You you'll love the personality. Dissection i get enough that people i mean i personally love those two. Like what explains our behavior. I think we're always so fascinated in that and it's been super interesting because when we posted that dr lab is actually in our facebook group and i remember her responding and being like all personality types are cool. They don't really tell you all that botch let's talk about schema and i'm like what the fuck a ski then i talked to her. I did the quiz. She gave us a quiz. And i was like omega. This quiz really just explained everything that happened in my last relationship into the quiz. My mind was like literally blown from doing that. And then i messaged you and she's like did scheme as like three years ago. Couples counseling. well you'll hear the whole story that is actually imported to this episode. That you'll hear so. We will tease it there. But there is something very interesting. That comes back around with that. So let's give a definition of scheme as you found a good definition earlier julie so a schema in social science is a mental structure that an individual uses to organize knowledge in guy cognitive processes and behavior. And you all are probably like. What the fuck does that mean. It really means like. I think it's just what we talk about with. Dr love is like how we're predisposition to cousin of attachment theory because of the way we've been brought up a cut because of just our genetics and everything it's explains like how we process information and why we do certain things like there's different scheme as i think. I scored highly in the perfectionist email. Which is there you know surprise. But i never thought of it in terms of my dating life before and i think that's where my mind was blown. I see it in my work life. I'm definitely a perfectionist. Ueda is that it has to deal with it. I never realized it was translating into i relation ship. That was fascinating to the beauty of scheme. As is that they are innate in you to a certain extent and they're hard to change in fact you'll hear in this episode. You shouldn't try to change your scheme us. The whole point is to learn more about your scheme us learn more about yourself and then apply these learnings to your relationships to be able to communicate to your partner how you communicate and how you work is essentially showing opening up a computer showing how it works mechanically on inside right. So it's not just the surface level it just runs in. This is how you press a and it shows a. You're showing your partner. If i press a what are the inner workings of what that a is doing to me. So that's why schemes are so powerful to learn not just for relationships but in the way we relate to everything in the world And i really just love this conversation because of that. It is mind blowing when you understand. The power of scheme is it is and this office says a little longer but honestly what. I was editing. it. I'm like there's nothing we can cut here now just so good and i think that big piece to dr leisurely. Stresses is that you can go to like be like cognitive behavioral therapy to learn how to change your behavior so there is ways that you can't adjust or even just adjusting the way that you think about things like i think i mean i won't give too much away because there's a whole episode appalachia. Perfectionists schema tends to hold your partner to higher standards. That they may not be able to me so sometimes. That's just not realistic. And it's not that you're like you know settling or doing anything less. It's just no one is perfect including yourself you rewire your story. Essentially therefore rewiring. Your behavior. And i like i said my only my only criticism of schema is the word scheme i feel like. There's a negative connotation to it doesn't sound great descends it. Roll off the tongue. I wish they would just call it. How you're wired yet. That's literally what it is. The described it as like if attachment their personality types out of it would be schemers scheme us yes but now called recode who renamed to how.
00:10:02 - 00:15:01
You're wired a kidney trademark by you issue. Nobody wants to kidding terrible. Sorry for anybody out there. But i think the eve of the week busby behavior because in the sounding board this week to we have logan yori who is another crowd favourite from the science of data. Who basically was a behavioral scientists making the tech industry. She actually took her knowledge from that in transferred into dating and relationships her episode that we did with the science of dating is was so popular. She has a. It's coming out in february so we're going to have her back on the podcast that you all here again. But it's how not to die alone about just using behavioral science to navigate dating in. We are going to have her this week as a guest at the dateable after show which is part of the sounding board. So if you're not in the sounding board yet definitely check it out. It's dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board and anyone that's in the friends with benefits or the exclusive relationship. Tears will be invited to this event. You can also join the lower tier the friends here if you don't wanna be going to events or if you're on a different time zone where events just isn't realistic or thursdays. Just don't work for you. There's many options here and whatever works for you. We're kind of starting at that so we can meet you where you are. And we've heard such great things. Like i was talking to one of our members to cut a belted my heart to hear him say this but like i actually love the sounding board even better than the old happy hour is because i feel like i'm like now with like a legit group of friends and like we're going deeper. He's like i find myself way more than i ever did before. And i just feel like we're connecting talking about deeper topics like i really trust these people like it's just super happy so it goes beyond dating. That's what i love. And this is why i can't stand singles events or singles groups because all you end up talking about was dating and it's like the dating woes but when you have a legit group of people who support you dating is one aspect of that then you start expanding into other parts of live. Bat are also interesting and important. So i love those conversations and we have people that are in relationships which is grain whether they were in a relationship long before joining the sandy where we had one person that wrote the sweetest thing about because we had people introduce themselves a little more at he wrote like. I'm so lucky like my heart stops. Every time i see by girlfriend like i'm just so lucky like i pinch myself. I forget his exact words but it was something like that. And i was just like. This is amazing and it's also amazing that you took the step to join this even though you're in a happy relationship because also talked to one of our members spin with us in our host group shelby and she got into a relationship after listening to the podcast and she attributed to the group in all the stuff and she was saying how her boyfriend now listened to the podcast together and they go. Oh my gosh. Hi shelby friend yet. We we've said it before. The big dateable does not mean being single in something that never stops. So yeah. it's it's for everyone and i. I've been so happy with the group especially this event. Coming up logan yuri. I realized why people love hearing about dating behavior is because it makes dating so fun a if you see dating as like a job you're going on job interviews a exhaust you and it drains you but if you look at as one big social experiment that we're all part of a makes us so fun. You're like ooh. What are the patterns. What is the general public doing. And what is our general perception. So it's really fun that way whether you're in a relationship or not makes it all really fun and it's also really fun is would you rather is because tests word of your perception. And there's an element of group. Think because when we have it on. The facebook group people tend to vote in the direction of those earlier hours of Posted there oh seems like everyone's saying this you know they're like Voting for this particular mindset. So the would you rather this week was interesting. The final would you rather was because it was based on mental health and dating specifically dating with depression. The episode last week with tony and just wanna call up before we do. Would you rather with that episode. Like the outreach. We go from. That ensued was incredible. So i think like a lot of people right now are dealing with depression especially the holidays always brings it up the fact that we're like cutting back to where we were at march in some cases like there's a lot going on or maybe you're just have depression even outside a covert might not be a new thing per se but i just want to say like how wonderful it was to hear people like appreciate this topic and also give another kudos to tony because it takes a lot to be that vulnerable and i thought he did such a wonderful job like really just normalizing something. That still has a stigma. Despite all the efforts yes.
00:15:01 - 00:20:01
That's why i don't like the word scheme us sounds like. I think that's what it is that that's what it is so the would you rather is if someone you're seeing has is battling their own mental health challenge. Would you want to find out in their dating profile. Or would you rather find out once you define the relationship. Julia was your thought on that weight. You had it originally giving you know what the final one i. Okay so for the final one i. We also tried to look at like what people are saying. Because i open housing and we're back here so i i was thinking this over in. I think i would say when you define the relationship over profile as someone that has experienced bouts of depression myself. I don't necessarily feel like that's something. I need to share with every last person especially on dvd profiles like like the short. W never beat or talk to like. It just feels too much to me and again. Maybe that's like my own cut of bias coming through with stigmas like in a world where there's no stick was in theory. It shouldn't matter right. But i also feel like it's kind of like just in general under dating profile. People can't like we talked about this to like even humor. I'm gonna like a to something that has nothing to do with mental health or anything like humor humorous hard to show on your dating profile as people don't know you they don't know how to interpret it. If you try to be super quirky just might fall flat so i think with mental hell too because there's such as like there's a range of just how eager managing it like how often this happens. There's a lot of differing and we went into the episode like there's all sorts of types of depression so even just saying depression is a pretty blanket statement as a whole. I just think there's nothing really to gain from it. Like i think it just isn't something that necessarily needs to be there for the pablo click. I think people should just present enough that someone wants to start a condo with them like they don't need to tell their whole life story on on a dating profile. I kind of equate mental health to be to being childhood trauma or your relationship with your family. I feel like it's sacred information. Yeah and it's information that's earned with people who you trust in so to put that on a dating profile. I would just think not. Everybody needs to know. I'm in the same boat but after you define the relationship. Obviously you trust that person. And that's win. This information should really be revealed so we were both in the majority. Eighty percent of people said after they. Etr twenty percent said in their dating profile. But it you called julie in my i would you rather question. It was a little different. It was would you rather learn about it in the first three dates or would you rather learn about it once you define the relationship. So what did you choose with that question. I would say. I three days of also. Because i've been there before like with many and in the last episode i haven't i had an a serious exa mine. My most recent acts dealt with depression himself and he did share that with me at something. He's had since childhood. It was more You know like something he did. That was very important to him so he did. Share it around lengthy three. It wasn't the very first state we met. Because you know like he could have never seen me again. So it's like you don't need to share that. I think at the very start. But it's so hard to put numbers on things like him. And i for instance we just clicked like immediately of id three. It felt pretty far in like it felt like we were on the path to our relationship but other people have gone on three. Tate's with what's your last name right. So i just don't think there's like a hard fast rule on it. I guess i'll say the three dates with the caveat that it should be progressing if it really isn't that i don't think you need to share it at that stage or you can wait a little longer. It's fascinating because the tables turned with this question. That's what i. That's why i changed it. Midway was because it was overwhelmingly ninety. Five percent i three days and five percent once you tr. And people said. I really wanna know early but then when i changed it to in your dating profile i think that was too early for some people they said. No i rather learn. Once you define the relationship i think in the first three days especially during the pandemic i feel like people are more careful with who they go on dates with so these dates may be a little different than what we used to experience. They may not be so casual anymore so it is a good time for a conversation like this pop up also should be natural but i feel like if if the trust is there and you're getting these deep conversations it is a great time to bring it up. I think it also depends on if you're three on zoom dot conversation. You know like well.
00:20:01 - 00:25:01
I don't know. Because i haven't i don't know what it's like to date on zoom during during this time but we always hear people saying like i was on zoom with this person for eight hours and we talked about everything and we went so deep. You know i guess it goes back to the point. I just made. It really depends on the situation. Three very surface level zoom dates or like our episode. That we have with kathy a couple weeks ago is too fast a bad thing. He was like super in his life story with this woman. So at that point three dates probably would have been okay so again. I think it's all super dependent on the situation. But i bet the reason why people felt like. Dr was too late is because it's like i've made a commitment to you at the static. Isn't this information you should have shared with me. And i think i see that on one stage. It's like it always feels like you were like withholding something maybe like. I could see that perspective but then on the other side it's like also just because you d tr doesn't mean that you're getting married or like spend your life with and like a lot of it is just continuing to make an investment and someone and get to know each other more so i don't think it would be i don't i don't think i would feel misled if someone told me after we define the relationship like i think it's something that just like whatever reason they had was. It felt more comfortable at that stage. Yeah yeah exactly. You can't speak for people so they they have to choose the right moment where they feel the trust and the comfort to reveal something like that but at the same time we're also trying to do. Is normalize this topic. It's not an illness and should be brought up when you feel comfortable. But there shouldn't be any sort of like stigma attached to perceived stigma at your You're thinking about that. You're hesitating to bring it up on the flipside of mental health. Like i think for example. My ex who struggle with depression was probably one of the most self-aware people i've ever been in life so i think whether like there's always this stigma but there's always a positive. A lot of creative people like funny people like there's a lot of positive sides to. I'm not trying to like diminish mental health. But like i think just hearing some. There's just one piece of who they are. It's not the whole story. Can i say this. And i have no evidence to support this but i think everyone has mental health challenges in is just on a spectrum. Some people feel it. Yeah with higher intensity but everyone is struggling with some sort of mental help. Yeah i i believe that. I don't know if that sound bound by science in any way. No i just think there's people that are aware of it and there's people aren't aware of it or people that suppress it in. There's people that aren't or you could just get the t shirt that i'm rocking right now and you show us. I only see the socially i know. It's like a little weird angle. That was a bad angle for youtube. I just like showing my boobs right out. But it's basically we have socially distant yet emotionally available. Tee shirt has arrived for everyone you to that. Was it awkward tradition. It's not at all everyone more. What else is on there. So if you're emotionally available socially distant universally available then head. Julia bendable all right so before we get to scheme us. We always like to recommend cool fun books. We also have a book club in the sounding board so we want to join that joined the sounding board but this thank you to this book in particular for supporting us in supporting this episode. It's a book called. Don't look by alexandra. Ib- new york times bestselling author. Alexandra proves her powers to terrify and titillate in a thrilling novel of pure romantic suspense as a serial murderer with a kill list stocks. The women of a small town in wisconsin. His victim's bodies are left naked snow with nothing but a red scarf around their necks his sinister calling card. I won't give much away. A after that. But ivy is known for developing hauntingly sinister killers and balancing them with the kinds of fierce female heroines and memorable strong alpha male characters. That romantic suspense readers crave find more information about this book. Santon books dot com or wherever books are sold. Ooh rats scarf around their naked bodies. Chilling chilling okay equally. Yes is learning about your scheme us. Let's get to it. On last season. We had an episode about myers briggs personality types and it was wildly popular. But i think it's also important to bring in other types of personality and traits that show up in relationship and the current resources that we have so this on this episode.
00:25:01 - 00:30:10
we're talking about scheme us. And i feel like you must as one of those things like. Not many people know about it so useful. So we've got dr abby lab here. She has practices in both oakland and san francisco. She grew up sort of on the east coast as she's the director of the bay area. Cbt center hi. Abby how are you. Hi i'm good. I'm happy to be here happy. I i remember you saying with personality types that you didn't love her myers briggs. Ed skuas was a much accurate. Way of portraying people so excited to dive into this with you and before we get into a scheme as are so julie brought up this topic of scheme us. I and i was like that sounds so familiar. And so i went back through my notes. And i went through couples counseling with an x of mine where the entire program was around scheme us so we took this scheme as tests in the beginning and we had to talk about how it showed up in our relationship and at the end of this counseling session. It was like two weekends the therapists that led this group. Was you know we reach out to her and said we really would like to continue therapy. Could you recommend someone as she recommended. A lovely woman named abby say like quiz. You said and she was like wait. I founded old either. This is a part against better. This will happen about three years ago. Okay and our relationship was already on the brink of just being done and after this whole like couples counseling a workshop. I remember going to julianne said this. Open up this whole other side of me. Br i want to learn more about relationships. And how i can really show up for my partner. I have to say it was probably a little bit too late for our relationship to realize that but we did schedule a consultation with you abby and i remember this consultation so well because after julian i had this conversation scheme us i went back through my email and i was like bam abby. We had consultation with you was already. I don't know if this is the right relationship and during the consultation. And you know i just have to give a disclaimer. My ex was wonderful. Great guy just kind and just a wonderful person. We were not compatible. We were holding onto a relationship. That was never gonna work out but on that consultation with you. Abby and paul munoz. This i say you you ask both of us. Do you want to get married. Do you see yourself getting married to each other. And his answer was. I'll do whatever you a wants to do. And that right there. Seal the deal for me that we were so not compatible for each other. Because i felt like he just wants to do whatever to appease me i had no idea who he was in this relationship so after we got off the call with you we broke up and i remember sending you an email. The next day saying her face freddie would look today just like i cannot. I cannot believe this story not know the war twenty minutes before this exactly we just. We just ended altogether. 'cause it all sounded too familiar but our email to you was. We've decided to separate. Go our separate ways but we would like to possibly continue one on one coaching with you therapy with you. And you had responded back and said i can. I was suggested just doing one of you. Because it's not it's not fair to both of you be my client. So that's basically where we left about three years ago. Full sard congress literally in that like fifteen minute consultation with you. I found so much clarity. You broke up your relationship effort talking to me as somewhat who has a bystander of this relationship i will again second as ex was a wonderful person. They were terrible and it was one of those things that like as a friend. You can only say so much at your dislike. Are you happy you know of. I think you actually did your job quite right because you probably pinpointed it and made it super clear and gave that clarity you needed. This is the funny thing we say in couples therapy right say. Sometimes ineffective couple's therapist helps a couple be happier and more satisfied in their relationship but sometimes a an effective couple's therapist helps the couple and the relationship amicably and quickly and effectively. Because we you know we have to learn how to be good at real relationships and maintaining and sustaining relationships but we also have to be good at saying goodbye and knowing when something's not working for us right right and ending in a way where we do it and consistently with our values and how he wanted to be in relationships so a couples therapist should never be invested right in keeping together.
00:30:10 - 00:35:14
But i tell you. I would have never been able to guess where i come up with this star in a million years. This is the moment world at a small world. Everything comes full circle. But i remember telling julia about. And i wanted you to take this test because i thought it was so insightful. It told me it gave me so much insight to who i am in a relationship. So let's first start off with what are scheme us even saying i. I want to say. I don't remember the session riot button. I i i would say that it sounds like your partner either has a he had. He either had a subjugate of course right that sounds very subjugation schema subjugation with his number one. So what is that anyone that doesn't know schema at all so so scheme as our core beliefs like beliefs that we have about ourselves and about others in relationship and subjugation. Schema for example. Would it be a belief that you are kind of powerless at relationships or that you have to. Basically you have to repress your own needs in order to maintain the relationship surprising as a subjugation. Schema will have a lot of fear driving their relationship and their fears that if they make their needs a priority they may get abandoned or they may get punished or they may get. There's gonna be some sort of retaliation or punishment or an abandonment of because of having a need and an in china get met in the relationship. So how are they. How is this. Different than myers briggs feels very different. But i'd love for you to break it down of why you think this is more of the ideal way to kind of understand yourself. Yeah well. I want to say the big difference. Between the myers demise briggs is more of a personality a questionnaire which lets you know very general personality traits whereas scheme as actually or beliefs. It's not like a personality that we have is just a belief that we have about ourselves for example somebody could have a dependency schema and actually be quite an independent person writing interesting. It's really it's just what you believe about yourself. It's not really facts about your personality. Who you are. It's about what you believe about yourself. But what's interesting about scheme us and we all development at a very early age so if for example your mom die at a young age you may have an abandonment schema or if he were abused in some way you miss you you may have a mistrust abuse schema so we develop these core beliefs in early childhood and then we learn certain behaviors to do with those beliefs For example if somebody has an abandonment schema they believe that others will abandon them and leave them reject them they could become very needy right and and scared and they may be kind of seeking excessive reassurance. Like do you still love me. Where are you where have you been right or they can do. The very opposite behavior naked abandoned before they get abandoned humbly cold and distant night so the beliefs a we have to understand the belief. Then we have to also understand the behavioral that they do when that belief gets triggered for them in relationships and still the person with a seemed schema can actually manifested in a different way interesting. I definitely have a bit of an abandonment scheme. Not like it wasn't my most prominent but it was one of them and it's interesting. Because i feel like my childhood was definitely not like abusive or bad in any way but my dad would very much like shutdown in fights and i saw that right and i think that's where it stems from so there's definitely like i feel like there could be the extremes but there could also be instances that might not be as extreme that also play into how you perceive relationships right we all developed schemers. So we all have corbu beliefs. None of us have free ferment. And you don't have to the trauma in order to to develop a core belief right right. These are just little attachment wounds right so we don't necessarily need to be in an abusive husband develop these core beliefs actually We we can have scheme as a more maladaptive more adaptive but we're we're always having beliefs about what will happen to us in relationship with others so i think that's really important to note with scheme schemers. It's it's a belief and not reality so you could happen. Abandonment schema. You believe people will abandon you. But that's not actually what people in your life and i think that's why i found scheme so fascinating because you what you believe is what you perceive as your truth when that may not be reality so we talked about abandonment. Schema let's go through all of the other ones. I wanna speak to what you said right now before moving forward. Which is what's interesting. Is that a belief. Does it could be imaginary. It doesn't mean that it's happening but if you behave accordingly you can a self fulfilling prophecy making the very thing you fear actually happen and making it real and often schemers occur that way i think about it if somebody has abandonment schema and they're calling off.
00:35:14 - 00:40:02
They're going where are you. Do you still love me. Why didn't you touch me. Where have you been with someone else. Then that person is likely to actually end up getting abandoned. The other person may start making more distance. So it's interesting about schemers. Is they end up. Creating these self fulfilling prophecies that do end up making it real if we don't change our behaviors around those beliefs wild like manifestation right and what's interesting about schemers to actually. There is a way when you look at a schema questionnaire gonna go over the schema but when you look at the schema questionnaire there is a way and you got you want to be very careful when you wanna make sure it's a psychologist. That's doing it but there is a way that we could get information about somebody's personality so for example. If you're getting a schema questionnaire and all of the schema are very very high and it's hard to distinguish the main ones that means it might mean that there may be a personality disorder there some sort of minor or were your larger yeah interest and there and there are certain dynamics between scheme as that could suggest particular her sonali disorders like for example hurson with a narcissistic personality disorder may have a their top. Three schemers are usually entitlement right sort. Tilmant is a core belief. Basically that your needs are more important than others right or that. You're more special than others. Or it's like a sense of deserving right expectation that you know what you want is the right way you will get your way right. That's an entitlement scheme up and Another schema for person with a narcissistic personality is on defectiveness. Shame and defectiveness shame as the belief that something is very deeply fundamentally wrong with you causing a lot of shame that you're broken right or or bad in some way and the third schema in a narcissist the triad for a narcissistic personality. The third one was mistrust abuse so again we would never want to think that somebody that has the scheme as has the personality disorder. But we would. If we look at the questionnaire and every one of their scheme is tied the highest it could be and their top three. Are those three. We may start wondering right. We may start wondering if it possibly could be a personality disorder because often you know some of her schemes are high. Some of them are medium. Some of them are lows of those. You don't have any and in the ten scheme but if all of them are high than our certain triangles that can lead to certain personality structures like a borderline personality structure would be Abandonment right so we have abandonment emotional deprivation and mistrust abuse so abandonment is the the the feeling the belief that others will abandon you. Emotional deprivation is a core belief that you will not get your needs. Met in relationships and mistress abuse is a feeling that you cannot trust others in relationships. That people will harm you damned you. They're not trustworthy. They may lie or deceive or betray you in some way got it. What about I think the other ones perfectionism. I definitely got that one curious to hear more of that. And then I think you said the other all the rest but social alienation. Did you mention that one. Two or not yet. So there's ten ten of them so we talked about entitlement abandonment mistrust defectiveness emotional deprivation self sacrifice in subjugate. So let's go to perfectionism. What is that. Yes so i will say that perfectionism right now is the most common scheme i see. is the most common scheme of both among men and women so it makes sense that perfectionism scheme our an unrelenting standard schema. It's when we put really high standards and expectations on ourselves and others Most of the time. It's both on ourselves and others. But there's some people that act it's actually more on themself than others so we're always assessing we don't take a scheme of questionnaire tool literally right. We're always asking questions. And assessing and asking if it resonates with the person but the most common scheme of that i see is perfectionism is people putting really high standards on themselves. You know And putting like putting such high expectations that are not right. The reason it's called unrelenting standards. It's because they are very hard to meet. We cannot meet these standards their unrelenting and there's a lot of criticism of the perfectionism schema the feeling that shows up the most for people with the perfectionism. Schema is this feeling of disappointment or not enough nece not out a bit better at this feeling of disappointment or wanting more. Let's hold that thought for a second. I'll get right back to it now. The holidays are the perfect time to get a little bit more. Glam d- up even if you're attending more virtual parties than past years thrive cosmetics.
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I become your dating scherf us to provide real time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board again. That's dateable podcasts. Dot com slash sounding board. Okay let's get back into this combo. I could see that being a huge issue in like dating to end relationships. Like i know. That's been a challenge for me because it's like you always want more. You always want people to lake. Sometimes you expect. People are a mind reader because perfectionism tendencies. So i can see how that would definitely shows up why you think so. Many people have the schema. I think our society is becoming more and more perfectionists that. We're expecting to live the american dream to have money to have this That right to be successful and so. It's an unrelenting standard. You think we could afford to go to college. Then buy a home and then of a family and then have this right like. That's i mean. People aren't even to pay their debts for school. How you know the standards that are put on us are very very unreachable so we do and and look at look at the messages that we get about what women should look like ryan user on who who looks like a who looks like angelina jolie right. Yeah and it's like dating like having like it's like having the perfect relationship having the perfect career like all the stuff. It's just so much to handle at once having it all absolutely it's a having an all mentality that's exactly what it is and we can't. It's not realistic to have it. All and i speak to we say julie because what's interesting about. It is that it can show up in different ways like a can show feeling like oh. My partner is not good enough. Or it's not enough with his partner wanting more feeling sense of dissatisfaction. Warren could show up like is our relationship dissatisfied dwellers have a better mortgage show up kind of like the people that have difficulty committing right. And it's like like a kind of fomo remaining one person because next person could be better. The next person could be better. And you can't really commit to. Anyone spook it again. It could manifest in many different ways and then when you think about the relationship to other scheme as it changes the whole dynamic an interesting dynamic is when a person has both perfectionism schema and in abandonment scheme up It could look a little bit like you kind of oscillate between all my god is my partner gonna leave me. I need that and then kind of moving towards them and then being like. Is this the right relationship. I don't know if the spark is good enough and then moving away from right and they'd be like are they leaving me to tonight. So that's what's interesting. It's like it could show up as different attachment styles person with an anxious ambivalent attachment style or an anxious avoid attachment style. Right should have different seema's or the same scheme with different attachment styles suits very interesting. You always wanna think about the schema questionnaire in relation to other scheme as because they all play along together inch so what after perfectionism. What's the second most common one that you see Perfectionism is the most common one subjugation.
00:45:01 - 00:50:10
As a is a common one. I would say more for women than for men but subjugation if we think about it relationships are a lot about negotiating and getting your needs met and so this feeling kind of powerless or feeling subjugated and that's a common one in relationships would save. That one is more common for women than for men but in general. That's a common one. The that i see the most in women Is self sacrifice the self sacrifice schema is the one that is most Common in women and the ones that are most common in men are usually entitlement or defectiveness. And so it's interesting to think about the standards that society puts on us with the message that we're getting from society around gender and gender norms in these kinds of ideas and how they impact our core beliefs about ourselves interesting. I find that those two really conflicting us well entitlement end effectiveness. It's like you're you feel. You are entitled to certain things but at the same time. You also feel like you're defective. So you're not deserving of certain things will. what's interesting is that we always want to think in with scheme as in relation to one another so it could be that person with an entitlement scheme doesn't have defectiveness. Shame like for example. It's more common for somebody with entitlement to have a perfectionism scheming hands of the person. Entitlement and perfectionism looks rather different than the person that has entitlement defectiveness. Shame but what's interesting about it. Is it the person that has defectiveness. Shame it actually has an entitlement scheme as an overcompensation for it if you feeling a lot of shame right and you're feeling like you're so bad. Need that even more to deserve to get what you want to prove that you're not that so it's very interesting about it. Actually is at narcissism which is a disorder of grandiosity entitlement is actually ashamed based disorder the number one feeling that drives the whole. Thing's actually shame and it's a very complex issue if we think about it. That way throwback to like dateable. But i've ever had one. We had someone basically come and talk about this like on again off again. I'm not gonna make you i- girlfriend. I'm going to hook up with other people in front of you narcissists that she was dating and i remember our co host at the time michael for anyone. That's been with us for a longtime. He had his masters in clinical psychology. And i remember him saying that he had it was shame. Like that's where it was coming from. And that was something that she had never thought about because he had the super confident persona. And the last thing you would think about shame so it's funny that like all these you know the fuck boys out there by there might be something deeper. Going on is what i'm gathering from us. Well but you know what's very interesting about it. Is we want to be very careful because the shame days the what's very interesting about them. The person that feels a lot of shame again in a narcissistic structure. They've narcissistic character. They tend to not feel a lot of guilt so the shame. Actually a shame is more about me. It is a very actually. It's a very self absorbed feeling like for example. It's me and you get into a fight. And i say whatever. You're a jerk right. If i was to feel guilt. I'd be thinking about it later and going. Oh my goodness. I said that and julie's really hurt. And she looked sad. I feel really guilty. Why did i do. That may be should apologize. She might be crying right now. Maybe i ruined her day. Shame does not sound like that shave. Sounds like why did i say that to julie. i'm so bad. I shimmy better. I messed up. i'm so awful. I never deserve anyone. But it's really. It's very interesting to think about. Because it's very me me me me. Feel guilt will actually Guilt actually aids for the person to change their behavior. Who and shame doesn't the person feel. Shame is not likely to change their behavior. I was going to ask you where it is guilt. Fall into all this. Like which schema does that kinda manifest in the most. Does it not is such a great question because actually the one that that manifests the most in is in self sacrifice. That's what i was gonna get a self sacrifice is a guilt driven schema right and so it's very interesting because self sacrifices are literally magnets for entitlements schemers and type people with an entitlement seem as our magnets re people were the sacrifice schema because there are the opposite side of the same coin. The person is like it's a schema maintaining relationships what we call it a schema. Maintaining relationship is when you're with somebody who continues to confirm that the core belief is true so five self-sacrifice schema and i feel guilty putting my feelings and my needs before others and i have a partner who has an entitlement schema and they believe that there needs feelings calm before others were perfect fit because we continue to confirm the core belief.
00:50:10 - 00:55:08
The other person interesting so we talked about a bunch how they fit into like dating and relationships. What about. I'm curious about emotional deprivation and also curious about social alienation. I kinda guess that one but would love your take. Yeah yeah so emotional deprivation schema. And i want to say what's really cool about schema. Would i find really cool about it. Is that you know it's kind of like the more that you do. And you see people with a scheme of the more you have a good sense of it and you're able to identify it quickly and be able to make a lot predictions about people like you did for you as ex boyfriend. Yeah exactly exactly. It's like you described to t you. I also want. I wanted to distinguish between subjugation schema. And her self sacrifice chemo. Because those two seem similar Both of them are driven by the idea. That other people's needs are more important than your own but a self sacrifice schematic. Julie pointed out is more driven by feelings of guilt ono. This person is satisfied. Do what i need own. No i'm hurting them. If i you know Get lunch without them or take a long time where a subjugation schema is driven. More by fear i will. They will punish me. If i do what i want warning amid in me. So it's very similar flavor but driven by a different feeling interesting thinks self-sacrifice drives more resentment than subjugation. I would say actually that Both of them like you said you're making a very good point because both of them end up with a lotta feelings on the anger and resentment i think that what what happens is depending on how much awareness the person has i would say in. Maybe the subjugating person feels more resentment lemme explain it a little bit differently. The person with the self sacrifice scheme has a little bit more awareness that their self sacrificing whereas the person who subjugating has a little bit less awareness looking for. If i'm going to a restaurant like the person who subjugating may actually blamed you for subjugating them even if it's their own belief that they may actually feel like you're controlling them or you're making them do something or you manipulated them even because it's difficult for them to say no so i guess it i would say that both End up in a lot of anger and resentment meeting look very differently. Depending on the level of self reflection or awareness at the person has like a good example of this is like. Let's say you're asking me to our my car. And i say i can't lend you the car. And then you circa guilt tripping me about it or or attacking me over it right. It's like if i. It's difficult for me to say no to lend you the car if i'm thinking about it this way. Oh no julie. Julie really needs to get to this job interview. If she doesn't go to job interview she might not get the job. And i don't want her to miss a job and then i give you the car just self sacrifice i may. I may feel a little resentful. But i have a little bit of awareness that i did that. Whereas let's say you can ask me for it. And i don't even notice to say no i just okay here and then later so of realizing like you're driving in. And unlike that she get gas did she do this. I didn't ask for this. Why did i agree to this. It's like the subjugating person is not even so aware that they've just done something they literally kind of feel like they don't they. They're helpless there number one feeling a sense of helplessness or obligate interesting. That's super agent. If two people are in a relationship and both of their dominating ski are subjugation. What happened in that relationship. Are they just like do they. Just not know what their needs are and they just keep subjugating to each other he it depends and often. That's not very common to subjugate. Getting together is not so much because but it depends if they have low awareness it can manifest in many different ways where they feel controlled over like. They may agree to things that they think the other person wants and then at the end realize that neither one wanted to those right so that it could look like that or it could also look like being really indecisive with what where you like indecision right so it could manifest in many different ways could manifest like assuming that the somebody wanted something. It could manifest like a being indecisive or if they can kinda slow it down and have more awareness. It could actually to really listening more and taking your time not to subjugate yourself or the other person's but any any seem as where you have more awareness. They're more workable right. Wait so you said it's unlikely but those two get together is that because they're both not really like no one's pushing it forward like what is the reason why those two wouldn't get together.
00:55:08 - 01:00:15
I think that's a very interesting question. i don't know the reason but it's not something i see commonly and i think it's because often people who subjugate are looking for somebody. They're just more kind of magnetized as somebody. Who's a little bit more of a leader. You know because they tend to kind of go along so often you see those people who are perfectionist revenue entitlements seem might just a different schema of because or even an abandoned emma schema but actually subjugation subjugation. Abandonment look like the typical pursuer distance or dynamic. Like i feel. Like i'm like unraveling so much about my last one for you to diagnose but this is a whole together making too much sense right now because the person must feeling abandoned likud subjugated is like. You're taking over my life hung on being Overtaken i'm losing myself right right. I mean the the thing with scheme is that they're so tied to each other that more of a perfectionist. You are the more of a subjugate or your partner could be that like. That's what i found in my last relationship. That's that's the beauty of it right. Beauty is how they interact not only with the other person but also with your own scheme as brass somebody. I mean a. Get your your question. Julia emotional deprivation see monica. Show you how this could look completely different. Even in your own scheme right. It depends on just like you said the interaction between the other person and within your schema and it could look radically different right sweaters ton of them but you could have like so many different dynamics between two peoples very interesting so an emotional deprivation seema is the core beliefs that your needs won't get met and your relationships and it's your need for. It could be your need for support your need for validation. You'll need for care. Be your basic needs. Your needs to eat your neat right. An emotional deprivation scheme feels like usually when people have this. There's an urgency to it like it's like the deprivation is very almost feels to me every person of hundred than emotional deprivation scheme. It's me and i get an image of a crying baby who just cried and cried and cried and nobody attended to in the which cry louder and louder or stop crying. They do all of these things to try to get their needs. Met and the level of desperation at calms. When you don't feel like your needs for survival are met because it does. It's it's a very intense schema and it's very urgent and it could oscillate so the person wasn't emotional deprivation scheme And they believe that others will not meet their needs often. The most comedy oscillate between different ways of being the most common thing. I i've seen my comment. Dynamic is that they start out with not saying there needs. They hold in their knees. They think they're needy. Have too many needs. And so they don't want to share them and they're afraid to show them they hold it in and they hold it in and by the time that they do share it. They're kind of so they're like a balloon that has just popped and then they're having all of these needs in there like an in. It's very overwhelming. And this didn't happen this right and so at that point and so both and kind of creating the same outcome that their needs met right. If you don't share your needs or if you wait until they are a nine out of ten on right like of of necessary a both strategies end up creating a self fulfilling prophecy where you don't feel it. Your needs met in that relationship. Let's hold that thought so we can take a moment our sponsor we like to take a moment to thank our sponsor help. So what is interfering with your happiness right now. What is something. That's preventing you from achieving your goals. Most of the time. It's all about our mental health and that's where better help comes into play. 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01:00:15 - 01:05:01
Eleven grams of protein and only three net grams of carbs in each serving. I was like Sold yell this is not this. Is magic spoon align of delicious tasting. Cereal that is almost too good to be true. And it's all kito friendly gluten free grain free. Soy free low carb. Gmo free and frankly guilt free. Checkout naturally spoon dot com slash dateable to grab a variety pack and try it today and be sure to use the promo code dateable at checkout to get free shipping and magic spoon is so confident in their product. It's backed with a one hundred percent happiness guarantee so you don't like it for any reason. They'll refund money no questions asked. That's magic spoon dot com slash dateable and use the code dat ab l. e. for free shipping. All right. let's get back to this episode sue. This feels like a very preemptive schema like you're basically saying my partner will never satisfy my needs before you even enter into a relationship. Yeah i was gonna say. Definitely what i probably if i took this test the quiz like a couple of years ago. I bet i would have scored much higher on that day. Well that means that you've done a lot of work on yourself right. That's exciting now. I feel like i've some scheme as that. I've like gotten like so good with like they don't even impact me that much like they still show up something they disappear. But your behaviors changed. And you have this freedom to act different when the beliefs pull you towards old behaviours that only reinforced the scheme. Oh tra said then. It's it's funny how there's other schema feel of of grown like others drug thing. It's it's interesting to think about it. But you know. I would say not a all schema. Czar bid preemptive right ling. This one i agree with you. It is has a more preemptive field than others but all of them are pretty preemptive. Because we're already bringing in a map of what we think it's going to how it's going to unfold and the more that we listen to the stories about how it's going to unfold the more that the stories are driving our behaviors. The more likely are scheme will come true and the more were able to notice the story in that it pulls us to behaviors that will only confirm our schema than we could then notice what our values are and replace those schema driven behaviors with values these behaviors and then were less likely to continue confirming kinda in repeating right like a self rip a repetition compulsion into i definitely can see that with all of them the only one i'm still not grasping one hundred percent. I'd love your thoughts on this is social alienation. Is that because you basically assume that you're not like accepted socially socially or does that mean something else. No you're on it. It is social alienation schema. It's a feeling of on belonging that you don't belong in a community. It's like a sense of loneliness and a kind of i'm different from everyone. It has a very different flavor from a defectiveness. Shame schema because it's not like i'm badin more like i don't belong could be. They're bad. why are they bad. why don't right. It's it doesn't have to be that you're bad but it's a big feeling like a sense of emptiness on belongings thing as a lack of community often. It's very common in people who are immigrants ryan view. If you come from a certain culture moved to a different country. That's a very common schema to have interests that. I could see that showing up in dating like there's no one that either likes me or there's one that understands me. Is there any other ways that you see that one showing up. So i think that you're nailing at one of the main ways shows up. Is this feeling. I'm never understood. I'm never truly seen. It's this feeling like is this partner. The person i meant to be is this the right person for me and it's a feeling of sometimes being with your partner and still feeling alone still feeling a sense of not belonging together not connecting together. So there's feelings distance but he could also shot in other ways. It could show up like on. Your family doesn't like me or my family doesn't like you or i don't like your friends or any time that i see couples were there were. There's a lot of stuff around friends and family. It's usually related to social alienation schema especially as you know. There's parents that don't like the partner or like a group or they're not getting along with their partners friends that's most likely a social alienation schema. What about people who really reject traditions. Who feel like. I don't understand monogamy.
01:05:01 - 01:10:09
I don't understand generals or people who feel like they just don't they don't see eye to eye with most people in their life. I have a friend who was just extremely smart. He doesn't brilliant. And i think he feels alienated a lot of times because he cannot hold conversations with anyone right. Well i think the key word that you use feeling alienated requisites social isolation alien nation schema. So if if the feeling that shows up is one of feeling alienated and alone and distance than i. it's most likely a social alienation schema but if it shows up moore's judgment not as necessarily alien nation could be perfectionism are caen. Entitlement right interesting. Like an entitled person could go well. They don't know anything. I'm smarter than them smarter than them. And nobody gets on so special right right and so that has a very different flavor than the person who really feels alone and wants to connect with people on feels like they're like literally like an alien ryan from a different planet. Well if so excited to go into ours. Because i feel like seeing how they leave together as gotta be really interesting select you dissect us but before we get into that. How were these twelve league. Decided like who came up with these should be the twelve skiavo's so i'll tell you it's. It's a funny story Jeffrey young is the first person to really come up with the idea of scheme. As in the sense of core beliefs like we voted had scheme as maps of understanding things. Like how do. I go to the store and get toilet paper. We have a schema for it. Right but Jeffrey it was the first person to talk about the idea of core beliefs in relationships and using attachment style with cognitive behavioral therapy right because scheme has are really schema therapies and integration of attachment and psycho dynamic. Therapy mixed with behaviorisms. So it's a very interesting treatment. But he started with tiny sort of ton core schema. And what's interesting is that then. I hope he doesn't hear this ever my really do. I've never met the man of the fred. he's an active number one fan. I'll say because. I don't think he will. He may have a grid diaz ity scheme blaming his own entitlement grandiosity schema how to lead him to continue and bring more and more and more and more scheme so now i think he's up to like twenty two damn right but in reality the more that the more scheme as he added the more the less Really some of the adage schema that he added or more behaviors than they are schema. Their beliefs like for example emotional inhibition. Which is a wolves back their emotions. There's also a vulnerability to harm. I think vulnerability to harm is a schema. Actually is a core belief. But i don't use it in my work for relationships because it's not an interpersonal scheme. So vulnerability farm yeah. Vulnerability to harm is the fear that you are vulnerable. It's like a hypo dryable disorder right. So it's like a worrying that you might get sick or that your wings and your body's not working well or they need to go to the doctor so vulnerable to heart. Schema is a core belief that you're fragile and that kind of way. God it's there's many these are just the twelve that we've pinpointed are more just the ones that are interpersonal that craft. There's time that us in these times are into personal ones that are in relationships there. Some that are not in relationships but many of the new scheme us are are what i would say are not just because they include a behavior for example. Emotional inhibition is not a core belief. Right i mean there's a core belief in there but apart emotional habituation is when a person represses their emotions right there kind of right leg holding back on their own emotional experts and so basically the dilemma. With using that as a scheme is that it's more of a coping behavior than a corps belief because somebody with an abandonment. Schema can also use emotional inhibition. Ride be emotionally inhibited. Or somebody. with an entitlement schema could be emotionally inhibits somebody with an emotional deprivation. Schema can be emotionally Inhibited so it's still informative. But it's i starts getting. It starts getting out of just core beliefs and starts getting into behaviors. It's interesting to look at but it's not as clean caught if that makes sense. It's not just a belief. I'm like dizzy. our everything everything is interconnected. I also believe that scheme must change over time depending on where you are in in life. Who your partner is. I took this test three years ago. My scheme are very different today. And but what is what is so good about. This is what you're saying is that your believes will ultimately drive your behavior so to change behavior in outcome we got to change our core beliefs.
01:10:09 - 01:15:01
I and that that's powerful no-no as you've got it backwards backwards right and what's weird. That's the beautiful part about it because changing beliefs could what's interesting. Actually is a scheme is a very stable and usually somebody to take the schema questioner three four five ten years later and still have the same schema. So scheme has changed you probably. I don't know. I don't know if you have but it means you probably have gone a lot of work. There or thought about this introspective and thought about it did they. They tend to be pretty stable and pretty rigid. I'm in really the therapy that i do. Because changing beliefs is much harder than changing behaviors. It's just a hundred times harder and the beauty of behavioral therapy. Actually is that you. Don't you believe you could have the belief for example if you're the subject schema that you're going to be a top that you're going to be punished that you're going to be abandoned and you can still make a request and see if those if that actually happens. You could do a different behavior while still believing it so actually what we do. Is we help. People change their behaviors. And we go if you change your behaviors enough and you see that. It gets disconnect firmed. If you don't keep doing the same thing that confirms it you do something different. You pay attention to the outcome that will change your beliefs. I am such a bad student. I have about student no because when we when we did. This couples counseling three years ago. That's exactly what our therapists not try to change each other schema. 's you're trying to change behavior while accepting that your partner has not six. That's exactly a dying. To know how have your schemers change. I want abby to diagnose both of us diagnose with our problem think three years ago a my the one says showed up the most. Were self sacrifice and unrelenting standards. Those showed up his high for me. Wears relenting standards. Perfectionist option is yeah perfectionism and when i took it again. Today i didn't have any high schemers. My moderate was perfectionism and then next was self sacrifice. So i guess it's like still similar but they're just not as high as and they're kind of somewhat flipped and i totally understand. Why so. they haven't changed though. That's to abbey lane is the same. They're just yep head differently. Yes yes yeah. It's like you changed your relationship with them that they disappeared. But you're relate you kinda holding them in a lighter way they're not as real. They're not as true. Probably when they're lower on the scale and the questionnaire the impact or behaviors a little bit less right because the whole goal is of behavioral freedom because the issue is not our beliefs might win arch schema gets triggered. It's a whole experience. Ryan is physiological. There's thoughts there's feelings or sensations. There's memories there's urges right. it's a whole experience right. We're like triggered and our goal is not necessarily to change the automatic thoughts feelings of the sensations or the urges. It's to be able to change our relationship with that so that we're doing different behaviors. Really what ends up making our beliefs stronger and stronger is or behaviors and we help. People really do. Different behaviors mindfully and with intention and with paying attention to the outcome. Often would they find. Is it then. The the belief becomes more valuable. The belief is not a strong wait. So you so that you think you know why they flipped and you think you know why they're lower. What is your hypothesis. I really think that like three years ago. I felt like i sacrificed for relationships. So then to overcompensate i would have perfectionism schema thinking that i needed to up my standards about the people i was dating. 'cause was sacrificing so much like that was lying rat was a narrative i was telling myself but at least i know i have high standards for other people but if they don't fulfill the standards the unwritten standards i have for them. I have no right to present them. At least i have this understanding now. My second step from that. It's the self sacrifice is that. I've come down from being a perfectionist and thinking that i need to almost sacrifice a little bit more in relationships. I think you're hypothesis is right on. I would have said exactly that. I think you know what's interesting.
01:15:01 - 01:20:11
I'm gonna say something strange. I don't know how it's gonna play out a history of working with a lot of couples and men and women and scheme ause. I've seen a self sacrifice. Schema is the most common for women. And i feel like it's a little bit right now in our collective unconscious or in that zeitgeist Like since trump got elected. I really notice a lot of women. It like almost like the metoo movement Really impacted a self sacrifice schemic. Suddenly women were like wait. A minute like no means no right to say no i only i love it. Yeah it's interesting. Because i like what you described bear and kind of the path that you took. I've i've seen a lot of my clients in other women than i know kind of going through this tough and it's it's been around you know there's a way that our environment is impacting. Cutting i would say like collective ski. I like our collective skiing are being impacted. I think of anything that we might have swung too far over. I think like what you were was saying is like in relationships. You kinda need some some self sacrificing. You can't be so much self sacrificing that you're losing yourself clearly that's when it really becomes the schema but i think we we're in a world in dating where people don't want to self sacrifice at all therefore like never goes anywhere. Yeah it's entitlement and perfectionist. You know it's i think what you're a very interesting discussion. I i completely agree with you and you know what i think is interesting. I think that when i work with clients on any schema or on any new behavior will it's interesting about it. Is that often what happens. Is we go from one extreme to the other. Look whatever behavior were doing. if we're at zero and we started doing a different behavior we go to like a ninety or for we'd been doing something at a ninety so going to the opposite direction to zero. And we kind of do that for a while until we get kind of in the middle of a fifty like it's your emotional deprivation scheme and they haven't been on making requests for sharing your needs and then we talk about it and they noticing it more and more before they get to an even outplays they get to an extreme place. Yeah i could see that. And you know i think the other side of that should be people with an entitlement schema gordon. Extreme place right is the opposite of that would be empathy and perspective taking and consideration right especially empathy. But i i agree with you that when you have been self sacrificing for a while or if you're noticing as a whole that that that you're doing that as as a collective then yeah. I think that there is a lot of truth to the fact that we are heading out to another extreme and it becomes it turns into a power struggle rather than realizing that actually there is a way to have win win scenarios. Not neither person needs to subjugate by both people need to compromise. You can't have entitlement and sacrificed book. People need to be willing to compromise and that means neither person their ideal situation if there is an entitlement. The prison falls into an intolerable situation. And that's that's the big difference right. It's like the perfectionism is expecting. I get my ideal all the time right. You know what you cannot be released into another person and have your ideal all the time. It's just not life or your partner's going to be zombie right so we have to be able to tell the difference between what is self sacrificing and what is compromising and what is not getting my way exactly as i want. Make getting my ideal but noticing. Well i actually got good enough. I got close enough to my ideal. And not in an intolerable situation and i also share that my partner is not in an intolerable situation. I'm not willing to get my ideal situation if it means that my partner is going to be an intolerable situation So i mean before we get to. Julius wanted to diagnose her to this idea of this journey and how your ski must show up. So does it look like this where you still have these dominating scheme us no matter where you are in your journey is just that some are more intense than others and then ca they kind of go back and forth or is it. If let's say you have one schema that dims does another one. Come to light. No no not necessarily you know the thing is is that it do. It all depends on how it manifests for example somebody could have a very very high self sacrifice schema and yet if they're aware of it they could do the behaviors that Where it does not impact their relationship with so what matters is not necessarily whether are schemers are high or dim. What matters is how much they impact our actions. God example the number one thing. I tell people with the self sacrifice schema as i say learn to say the word never say no and never say yes definitely never say yes always say let me think about it just startling.
01:20:11 - 01:25:02
Let me think about and buy yourself time because the cell sacrificer is always like yes. The title irs is like nope you how both people more so this self sacrifice or say. Let me think about it. And then you do little exercises to help them really connect with what they're actually needing is austin winning self-sacrifice for a long time when you when you could work on the behaviors. It gets really hard to still be able to identify what you're actually needing you've sacrifice rhys alarm. You've lost the the kind of Barometer of what. You're needing so you kind of help them do the behaviors that by them the time because when they're no longer afraid just say no or when they could do that behavior they more in touch with what they're actually needing It's it's like summer. Some are dimmed or ready. Look somebody could have a dimmed which impacts their relationship hugely and some have a very high schema which impacts the relationships very lightly. We're what really matters. Is how aware view of this voice. Right there's a narrator in your head and there's these stories and it's selling you the stories not set this narrator is not selling you these stories out of nowhere. it's not created a vacuum. These things actually happened to you right. You got certain messages that if you're if you don't put other people's needs before your own you're selfish or you or you're not good right Or if you trust people betray you and they'll use you so the fact that you've learned. The schemers was adaptive at some point. Now the behaviors you learned and what to do when those get triggers were also adopted in early childhood environment like a perfect example of this is the person with emotional deprivation schema may become really hysterical when they have a need. They may just go and i'm falling apart. I'm hysterical employing need you to help me right. And this may actually push other people away and not get their needs met but it must have been that at some point in their life may be for example. Their mom was depressed and if they fell or they had an issue that needs it wasn't attended to if it was like a ten out of ten it was attended to so they learned. They learned that. I have to be a really bad at ten at a time to be attended to so it's like we learn certain behaviors and may have those behaviors of adaptive in our origin family. So fascinating so. It's it's becoming aware of your scheme us and then how to manage it away right. It's like there's there's a voice and it it in that voice as soon as you get triggered everything that voice says to you pushes you to do an older behavior and every feeling not shows up. If you don't want to have the feeling it will push him to do an behavior if you're willing to notice where that feeling is in your body to love that you know to kind of treat it like a crying baby. Each schema is a crying baby. It we go. All here's gil makes sense. I feel guilty and it feels really bad and now my mind is gone. You're not gonna feel guilty if you just agree to give them your car just giving your car. You're a bad person. You're selfish right in. Just go and make sense that. I feel this feeling in my stomach and i feel this tightness in my throat. And there's this ruled feeling an experience of this. Y'all and and and and fear not being good enough and then the more that you willing to go i could have those and so can it makes sense. I feel this way. Where's this in my body and even take your hand and put it exactly unwary feeless feeling the most intensely new rub it. It's just like a crying baby. Nagoya here you when you're able to relate to a differently and you're not trying to push that experience away then you have all of these options. Do i wanna stay. Maybe maybe i want to say yes. But i wanna see us tomorrow or maybe i want to or maybe i want to say i'll do. I'll say yes if you do this. All of these options. Open up these behavioral actions when we're able to stay with the experience and when so i help people see with the experience but we also identify what are your values because our values are a compass our values tell us about what we want to be about so five values around being compassionate being assertive being fair. It a clear that i am about the the stories and where they pull me versus the values the more able to stay with this uncomfortable. Feeling the moral. Be able to choose the behaviors that move towards values rather than choose the behavior that might give me an immediate relief but lead to long term pain right because it's almost like an addiction. Like if you if you feel guilty and you say yes you feel less guilty in a moment but in the long run you end up feeling resentful at so fascinating i mean i think like for me because this is the first time i ever did the scheme as like you.
01:25:02 - 01:30:08
A you had experience in the past with it and i can't believe i still can't believe that story is just ridiculous but i do remember you like telling me that. Take the quiz. an. I can't remember if i did it or not. It's a pretty long quiz so you might ask. Might not have. But i know you did. Why did it this time after you saw the class and i think what was really interesting for me is i know i'm a perfectionist in like work and in other i just didn't realize like it showed up in relationships but in all make sense i mean we talked about earlier and i think all that fits me to the t- that i have very high expectations for people in my life. You know like sometimes. I would expect a lot from people and i would. Also i have been my second one. So of my high at high perfectionism. Moderate entitlement in the moderate abandonment. And then the rest of mind were low. Dependence was the next one. And i think what you were saying earlier abbey like i definitely have that experience with abandonment. I've it's something that i became very aware of in therapy to and have to change the stories in my head about that but i do see how it plays into perfectionism as well although sometimes like i'll pull away 'cause i don't wanna get hurt i or you know they'll be like a wholesome into this high standard and then they can't meet it because i'll be afraid to be abandoned so i definitely see the interconnected. I think though the part that really stood out to me. I literally read by description and like a light bulb went off and i was like. Oh my god this explains i last like serious relationship was basically what i got was. You tend to be attracted to partners who have difficulty meeting your standards including those who have a failure schema dependent schema or defectiveness schema. And then you tend to seek out partners who are willing to your needs including those with a self sacrifice schema subjugation schema or emotional deprivation schema dependent schema or abandonment or effectiveness. Which i think like. I haven't done this quiz for my acts but i think a lot of the ones that i just mentioned. Summarize i think the he would score high on those so it was very interesting to me. Why perfectionism a track some of these more. You know like. I think you said it well about just subjugation. For example like you're looking for maybe more of like a dominant person or someone kinda take the lead any other thoughts you have. I'll let you a sesame. Those are just my two cents. Yeah i think that looking at the way. Those two relate the there could be a finding partners that are alike I guess that are not up to your standards right. It's kind of just easier to find that partner that doesn't meet the standard. What kind of look a failure schema. But but what's what's interesting about. It is that there's like a flavor of ambivalence right because when you're fearing being abandoned in the feeling is kind of like ono rate like this person is leaving me and my not good enough. What's wrong with me and the feeling of perfectionism is like. Is this the right person for me. I do not right there. There's criticism right like what's interesting is. That criticism can function as a way to make us feel safer about abandonment right. Like let's say somebody's leaving me and i go. I love this person. No don't leave me. But then if i start going well they're kinda messy not so smart and they're kind of boring and they're kind of this right the more that i criticize them. The the more kind of alleviates. The fear of abandonment right. Because then that person that great anyways maybe maybe they're doing me a favor right and it's it's kind of like being on the fence kind of feeling or ambivalence with wondering is it that i'm afraid of this person leaving me or is it that i want to be with them or do i not want to be with them or am i for it of them. Leaving interesting how chicken this is like the head. Spit of all the different. Like it's really. I'm really conflicted about julie's perfectionism. This scheme is very high for her. She's attracted to partners or tend to be attracted to partners who have difficulty meeting her standards including those with the failure dependence or defectiveness schema. Why is that so first of all people with perfectionists scheme us are definitely going to be attracted to anybody who will never live up to their standards because they're perfectionist but why is it like almost over the other part of the spectrum basically why would she be attracted to those with failure scheme or dependence or defective. Feels like a total like one eighty like. It doesn't yeah. He'll just like yeah. It doesn't feel like you're setting yourself up for semi success. Well what's interesting about. It is that we tend to actually be pulled towards those opposites right because again they confirm our belief so the person who feels like a failure when they find a person with a perfectionism skiba.
01:30:08 - 01:35:02
They know that their failure and when the person with the perfectionism screamer right finds the person to failures. He meant they know that the purses not good enough interesting. What's interesting about seema's is that scheme schemers our beliefs. That are really painful for us. They torture us that they also make us feel safe right. They make us feel safe in the world because if my beliefs a confirmed and it's like if i believe to be abandoned on one level that's really devastating and pain forbidden another level when that person abandoned me. I feel this like the world is known. Worst predictable. I knew that a horse you abandoned me. I knew you were could have banned right. It's it's like a conflict between not wanting that that pain from our scheme us but the safety that gives us one relationships are predictable and can reliably rosenstein. Oh ended up the way we expect him to. It's very comforting very safe. Even if it's very painful sometimes we prefer that so. Okay i'll i'll use myself as an example here. Let's i'm going to be a perfectionist. That's part of my dna like you said you can't change your scheme. As how do. I work out of this. That i'm not either attracting people that have this failure tendencies or like all the tendencies that basically would be the opposite of the perfectionist Disease that's not working for them. Either right it's not a harare. Well i wanna say that the beautiful part about us. Finding we're we're kind of Pulled towards our polar opposite in some way right in some way Be bad but in other ways it could actually be really helpful like it could lead to emotionally restorative experience. So it's not about what scheme as the other person has necessarily. It's more about how willing they are to do. The work on them so the person of two people were willing to see their schemers and who are willing to do the work on them and who are willing not just to start identifying and recognizing their own beliefs there triggers and their old coping behaviors the to also notice their partners core beliefs and their triggers and their pain when both people are committed to that process. That's what really matters because the person with a self sacrifice schema for example has a lot to teach the person with an entitlement on and the person with entitlements scheme has a lot to teach the person with a self sacrifice schema if they could be able to call each other out and do the different behaviors. They could both together meet towards the middle. They could both move towards the middle together interesting. So it's not that you're gonna change like that just might be the people that are like i'm attracted to when are drawn to me might have those underlying schema schemers and i think there's something about just the way some of them sound. That sounds more negative than others. But at least when i'm lying from you is that it's not that way that there's positive in negatives and all of them in its about kind of getting to that. Fifty percent opposed to being more on the extremes of them. Is that correct I think that exactly everything is good in moderation. But anything to look. It's great to be sacrificing and considerate of other. If you do that at the cost of yourself it's not good and entitlement is good to feel like your needs matter but when you feel at your needs matter more and come at the cost of other people feeling harmed then. That's not good anything in moderation. It could be good but anything of the more extreme it as of the more rigid as the more harmful in his but for example like in yet use some tips for example of what people with perfectionism chengdu. Yes like since number one. Probably some other people listed they can identify so one thing that's really helpful for perfectionism to share appreciation and gratitude. So that doesn't mean to actually share it with your partner. I mean it's good to share it with your partner but to connect with it yourself to really be like every day look at what. How did this person contribute to this light to my life. What were the moments were. They did satisfy me. What did that feel like you know. I love that does like i think also just like to speak to my like. I don't want to pay my exit a bad way. He obviously had many great qualities. As well and i think they keep taking those time to be considerate of those in appreciative of those is really important with anyone is going to have flaws in a relationship so i'm glad that you said that. Well also the thing with perfectionists is that they focus on the floor. Right on the lows in the you forget. You're in a relationship with a person for like the. Yeah it's like easy to complain about things but you're not like you have to really take time to appreciate the person as well I want to make sure that i'm also. I'm not saying that means you accept bad behavior right so finding gratitude and it doesn't mean somebody's doing bad things to you and you go. Oh okay. I don't want to be perfectionist Let me let go.
01:35:02 - 01:40:02
That's not one that needs. Because i really want to point out when we were talking about the idea of perfectionism being a bit of a of a overcompensation for self sacrifice right. Is that if you start telling yourself in on being perfectionist a perfectionist you might start self-sacrificing or leading behaviors go and and that's not the goal so the other piece around what perfectionist can do is really identify in general. What are your values in relationships for example. So there's two pieces there's identifying your values and your partner and there's identifying your ideal situation versus intolerable situation i'm gonna talk first about values and then i'll get to the next one yeah But you wanna be thinking about. What are your values in relationships in yourself and your partner and you know one one thing that people were the perfectionism schema can do. That could help them notice. This is like you can draw a sheet or you put values. let's see right values and right importance from zero to ten and then re right knee and then rewrite my partner right about ted values. But i'll do three to keep it simple. So my value is gratitude assertiveness and Collaboration right those my values and let's say Affection and then the next irate importance from zepa and this one's important at a ton this was important nine distance appointment at nine. The next thing. Is i then measure myself either for the day or for the week from zero to hundred percent. How close am i to being. Let's say collaborative was i. Eighty percent collaborative. Was i seventy percent collaborator. But forty percent collaborative so you rate yourself and then you rate your partner. Today was my partner. You can either do it every day or every week this week. My partner was seventy percent collaborative or eighty percent collaborative right. And then you go to the next one assertive. How assertive was i was. I eighty percent twenty percent and nobody's one hundred percent ninety percent and then you rate your partner and now as a perfectionist. The i do this exercise with each ski might tell them to focus on different things as a perfectionist. What you want to focus on first you want to focus on the importance rating. If you notice that you write ten values down in each one of them is a ten out of ten of importance you realize that. You're having some unrelenting standard right. Yeah like if you have things like humor. Maybe humor is like an eight and honesty is like ten right or maybe humor is like a nine point. Five and honesty is a ton. But if you've got ton of values the everything is a ten out of ten of importance you want to say haw. I'm not able to distinguish that. There are things that are higher or lower prices. Things i could let go on. And there's things that are non-negotiable so for perfectionist after really clarify what is non-negotiable values and right and and levels that become clued. Done deal right versus. What is a situation. That's not my ideal but it's good enough like i'm not satisfied at one hundred percent so the next thing you wanna look at is the ratings of your partner right so then he want to look at him. I being as consistent with my values as my partner like is my partner immigrating reading my partner is like seventy and a set with them. And i'm all twenty so you look at your like i've been like lobbying and kind collaborative or honest like twenty thirty forty. My partners like a sixteen. I'm like why are you a sixty million dollar kind of work on yourself. I gay to ups right. And then you track your on where your partner is right. I think that's a really good point too. I think it's a good segue to takeaways. Because i think there is like you know. It's i definitely can identify that with the perfectionist standards. Is that like you. Wanna have it all. And i think ryan learning from all of this whole thing. It's understanding yourself. Clearly by seeing what your scheme as our what those beliefs are and then using that information as power. It's not necessarily something wrong or one is better than the other might sound better than others depending on how you it but it's really not about that. It's about just how we can do it. And i love this idea of like holding yourself to the same standard like am i actually stepping up in the way that i need to be opposed to blaming someone else or if there's another schema that you have it's hard work with this schema to debt to a place with a relationship like i can totally see the situation. If you're always saying yes. I love this idea of taking a pause and saying let me think about things. Like i think there's just so many different ways that you can handle your schema. So yeah i guess. Knowledge is power. I think is probably like my biggest takeaway and also then using that knowledge to then impact your behaviors and being intentional about your actions as is power i am i think just with schemers in general is you have to decipher what you have control of and what you don't have control of.
01:40:02 - 01:45:01
They think we have control of is how you digest your schema into a behavior and that's what it is automatically in your hands but some things are out of your control. How you were brought up this shit. That happened to your in your life. External factors are out of your control. So even if you come out with after you take this very long quiz. Learn so much about yourself but if you come out with like an entitlement schema like julie what you're saying there's no positive or negative on any of these schemers you have to. I stand where that comes from sir asking why you feel the way you do why you believe the way you do and how you can change your behavior based on Your schema i think. That's like the ultimate takeaways knowing what you have control of. I think this whole notion that you said abby that schemers are purely belief and it's really up to us so that's the training. The cognitive therapy is to understand. Like how much does action support. The belief is a story. I'm telling in my head or is it a reality. And then how do. I change my behavior knowing that this is a story. That's gonna keep popping up in my hand. So i'm not you know making myself like putting myself at a disadvantage with relationships because like i don't know about you guys. I don't want to have the standards that no one can meet. Is that basically saying that you'll be alone forever. So it's like. How do i work on accepting people for where they are while also obviously not accepting bad behavior right. And that's what i wanted to say. There's no badge scheme as that. There is bad behavior. There's not better way there. Is there any schema. There's are a neutral but of behavior could be hurtful or harmful or helpful so yeah or effective or ineffective and and and i agree that the most important thing is really really recognizing what is in your control so then the scheme at your belief the thoughts pop into your head or out of your control mind is popping eight million random thoughts that are out of our control and our sensations are out of our control like if a lion jumped on top of us. Right now we would have allotted. Nothing would not be able to measurable and we'd have a lot of feelings and thoughts about it. That are completely out of our control but we are behaviors completely in our control. None of us would like smack. Tiger our behaviors are completely under control and knots. Why working behaviorally. With beliefs is the fastest way to having a an effective relationship. We have the same exact belief and still do something. That will mig relationship better. I also like the other takeaway that you need a tactical way to to deal with all of this is mapping your reality against your beliefs taking kind of record of For i think for example. Julia and i are both perfectionists. And we've had friends tell us why don't you promote your podcast more. Why don't you talk about the accomplishments and we both been like. We're just not there yet like we're starting out and a friend literally had to sit down and show all the stats of our accomplishments through the last years years said. Look at how much you've done. And i think that's when we shifted our perspective outright july. Okay we are just such fucking perfectionist. Forgot to celebrate our own win. I think i think that that speaks to schema specifically towards women like now. I'm talking about gender schema. This idea of being afraid to kind of quit your accomplishments out there or kind of I guess right talk highly of yourself promote yourself as a very gendered based hab women are really dishing. Hold on to feel very ashamed of doing something that we have not been in the workforce for as long. We have not had speaking as much practicing of this. Were very new at it. And so yeah. I think that that's very very much related to a female ski mont right women. Yeah i could totally see that. I think the one other takeaway have is. I definitely now see why you lean more to scheme us. Over myers briggs myers briggs is interesting but it like scratches the surface and it doesn't really give you as much actionable things you can do. I feel like. I have so many things i could go out and do. Now that's going like directly impact. How i date and have relationships. So yeah i do that. I i prefer scheme over attachment styles to prefer a against scheme as more practical and they give you specific advice and you could make real changes. I want to add another thing for perfection as to do after you fill this out is also you wanna look at where your partner is from zero to a hundred and you wanna look at it through several weeks so for example if your partner is like sixty one week in the eighties.
01:45:01 - 01:50:09
Another week in the nineties. Another way and then seventies another week you have to realize. Actually that's a good relationship right you so so if if you like and then you also want to look at whether they're the whether they score high on the ones that you rated the most important so you want to actually start looking and seeing that even if you're feeling dissatisfied look at the paper and ask yourself whose i tell i tell my clients if you and your partner a rating the other person at an eighty or higher your take about that is an ideal relationship that is an ideal relationship. Yeah always going to be at eighty. You're never going to be at one hundred if you're wanting a hundred your i don't know what to tell ya not your therapists because i get you there but eighty s very good eighties fantastic and it's not eighty every single day. You know. sometimes they'll be at a twenty but then he wanted to think about or the twenty at something that's important at a two or the twentieth. Something that's important in a ten. Are they a twenty for week. Or they're twenty. Three months lobbyists abby the perfectionist in me and the asian me just went is an eighty percent. Be my i was looking definitely like hundred but this is where i like i familiar. I feel you're talking totally for us here. Know what this thing is not think about it this way. If it was just you taking the test you could get an a plus when another person and you're taking the tests you gotta right. There's gotta be more leeway that is such a good point though like eighty like there's this Shumur the show with z's on sorry what the hell was that own master of none. Do you remember this. Like when they asked to rate each other and they say like a seven and they decided to break up and then like he goes to his married friend. And that's pretty. Damn i give to like you just fucked up just shows you that. You can't treat your relationship like you do with yelp reviews people only right when they have an extremely great experience or extremely bad experience. Nobody's ever writing a review for restaurant where there were like the meal was pretty service. I came out of it pretty full like that. You never hear that review. But i think that's what sustain a healthy relationship is that things are pretty good. You know like your your needs and your values are being met fascinating fascinating. Thank you so much for enlightening my life for the second time. This is like the most. Like i open bypass relationships. So thank you again for also. It takes a while to wrap your head around diving. i. I'm going to have to sit with this for a little tonight but We'll post all of this information including the link to the quiz in our show notes but abby people want to get in touch with you to find clarity how they find you. You could go to bay area. Cbt center dot com so cbt like cat. Boy tom cognitive behavioral therapy. And then there's also a cbt online dot com and see bt online dot com has. I'm creating a lot new of new resources. And they'll be worksheets. Like non violent communication worksheets and worksheets. That people could fill out right like related related to schema and looking at your triggers in your thoughts and your behaviors or even this worksheet. I just told you about right. Now is all available. I'm cdt online. Dot com to fill out right on your computer or your phone. Awesome will link all of this in the show notes to for everyone in on the website. So they can all find it but definitely recommend taking the quiz to start off in probably listening to this episode a couple times. I feel like there's like so much to take in. It might be one of those ones that you gotta repeat a couple of times to get it all. But i love the idea of using workbooks and really looking at your own stuff in more depth. So thank you for sharing those resources. Don't go to bay area. Cbd center dot com. There's a huge difference clair area. Cpt's centers abby I think you know like. I do want to mention this for our listeners. If you were if your mind was blown by this episode and you loved having abby on as a guest with us. Please give us a rating and apple. Podcasts this deserves a five star rating bathing else. I think this is like what's been so enlightening about my life. My relationship with my partners and how i show up so definitely. Don't forget to do that. And also for all the resources. Just go to dateable podcasts. Dot com for everything. Yeah would it be fun to Do like have random people call in and we diagnosed their scheme as a great follow.
01:50:09 - 01:51:41
We have to do that. That's a great email us the questionnaire we tell you everything about your relationship ovalles. God i love it fabulous. Yeah thank you for having me. I just really enjoyed this shot. And i just really amazed at the fact this. Your story is just amazing. Really thank you so much for joining us to take time. This was so so at les. Thank you for having me. It was fun hour. We won't hold you up for too much longer. We're going to wrap up this episode. A the dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcasts. You'll love frolic dot media slash podcast to continue the conversation i to follow us on instagram facebook. Twitter with the handle at dateable podcasts. Tag as an any post with a hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts you can also find a premium. Why series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums also downloadable for free. On spotify apple podcasts. Google play overcast. Stitcher radio and other podcasts. Platforms your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.