We're chatting with Kat Harris about her conscious decision to abstain from sex until marriage – especially while living in a city like NYC.
Not having sex right now? Sure. But not having sex by choice...that's another story. We're chatting with Kat Harris about her conscious decision to abstain from sex until marriage – especially while living in a city like NYC. We discuss what sex really means beyond the physical act, the difference between sex and intimacy, and whether or not vibrators count in popping your cherry.
Thank you to our partners for this episode:
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S11E5: Sexless in the City
00:00:00 - 00:05:19
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating where we dig into the lies of people's behavior. Why do people do the things they do when it comes to dating but this week was particularly about why is the sky color if you? At where you have friends who live in California I'm sure you've seen them post pictures of the sky that are the same color as my shirt right now orange or yeah. Why are we dating on Mars? I posted to the facebook booker and I was like you don't live here. We will let you know what it's like to date on Mars you can live vicariously slash vicariously through us I'm GonNa emphasize the not vicariously because I don't think anyone wants to do. That it was just creepy I woke up. First thing I did was tax Julie and was like, have you seen this guy is so creepy and I got a text from my friend and he was like, am I still alive feel like it was really cool in the beginning. But then around like twelve when it was pitch black, I'm like this is fucking weird i. feel like this whole week has been bizarro really fucking. You're like twenty twenty what else you got? Number I feel like calling it didn't smell didn't feel like the air was bad and in fact, the a Q. I was okay. But for some reason, like the marine layer trapped the smoke from us, breathing it in and I just kept thinking like this is the literal definition of hell we are just strapped. Right now, and it's got like the color of L. We'd like seriously twenty twentieth straight up help I, mean the entire entire west coast is basically burning right now from Portland all the way down to San Diego, which is crazy. But can we talk about gender reveal party is because? A elise, the door they're part. Of Califor-. At. least is the right word but at least it's it's from nature. Right? There's not like someone did something idiotic but in so cal, it got started because someone like Blue Shit up at a gender reveal party I go on a little rant I hate gender reveal. Do why why do you hate them so much because I know people who love them but my boyfriend also. New So my I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone gender reveal party that I've been to or not been too I hate them so much. So there's a couple reasons. One I think it's completely antiquated tradition just being someone's is something doesn't mean it's going to be their gender either. So you're basically forcing someone into blue and pink like that is so archaic I'm sorry like what the fuck and also other thing is like don't want wants to be there like the. People, the participants like I'm sorry there's so many other ways I'd rather spend my Saturday like I'm all for you. You're having a baby. CONGRATS. That's amazing. I don't need to be there for the gender reveal party I feel the same way about gender reveal parties as I. Feel about bridal showers a why why a fucking bridal shower you're getting like a Bachelorette party you're getting a fucking kidding do you need a shower and why is it called a shower and also? I'm not. GonNa go into the rant about the baby shower. But if you've agenda reveal party and a baby shower like how many more things can you have like I? Know it pisses me off especially as a single person where you get shit yeah I can see where you're coming from also because the gender reveals sort of what you're given. You are choosing it's not like an accomplishment I mean I. Don't know I don't want to offend people probably go with wedding industry as a whole, but I do want to get married. That's always been something I want to do but I do not want to do the whole traditional marriage because I just don't believe in people giving you gifts to start a life. Like you're already have a life we wanna you need gifts for it. Well, I, think people just want any excuse to have a party so I will never turn down a party, but the reasons are getting a little bit ridiculous. These days I think we should have we should just bring on the more ridiculous parties forget gender reveal parties just have like a agenda changed. All the people who decided they want to be a different sex. Right? They don't get anything. But also if you okay if you are going to have a gender reveal party or whatever party don't like light shit up in caused forest fires. The ultimate learning here. Don't burn down California just because your baby happens to be a boy exactly exactly you or I don't even know I don't even know what the gender reveal party revealed I. Really I don't give two fucks, but as we has been so weird because we felt like we were living on a different planet for sure and at the air has been so bad reminds me of my days in Beijing when the pollution we get so bad I'm wear goggles outside because things were getting into my eyes.
00:05:20 - 00:10:00
But. That's the reality we're living in I was saying this to a friend I was like ironically got away from Asia and Ironically Asia is the best place to be right now Asia's coming to you with face Pasco. Like Fay she'll. Follow me everywhere. It's so funny because like a few people reached out to me because we talked about my virtual date last week on the podcast and people wanted an update and I was like, God. That was only last Friday feels like it was like a year ago because there's so much. Shit in weirdest that's happened. You WanNa give an update update I'll give a quick update. So probably, the reason why people are asking for the update is because I was very excited about it on the podcast and I thought I had a lot of potential in I think part of it was that we had a lot of just similar creative passions like there was a lot that we vibe about. What? All it was a little awkward. I will say like I'm the part that I'm struggling with still is, is it the person or the medium like with virtual dating I think part of it like we both like grabbed a drink to try to recreate a bar scene but he was like laying down and it was just like a weird I'm not like I'm not trying to nitpick someone. Bed. was just like a really odd like vibe that was happening the energy. What is the angle? Like. Anger anyone that's. Buy made a very unflattering angle, but it's basically like I think it was just the way the camera was positioned down in like he actually looked like looking guy like in the photos and even through video I couldn't really tell because it was like the way it was angled. So I mean angling is a big part of video for sure. That is something I've learned I. Think it was challenging this struggling. So maybe I'll get your feedback or advice and listeners you can let me know what I should do too. It's like I left being like I'm not feeling it like our energies just aren't matching. He also told me that he listened to the podcast and it wasn't his cup of tea which I did. Shit. That's a dealbreaker. Like I'm not going to say it's everyone's Cup of tea. That's fine. But why say it like why bring it up like he's I appreciate what you're doing. It's not something I would ever listened to Mike Okay. So that was one thing. You as a person, but I don't want to get to know you either but you. Already don't like. Sorry he's already negative. That like totally through the question. But if you have married guy, I'm not coming to your quote unquote wedding that you're not having. To reveal party anyways. So I think it was like I don't know it was one of the things. I didn't feel like the energy with someone like that. We like really just like vibe well, and I think I usually am pretty good on my intuition with it but I was talking to a friend of mine that I went away with to Carmel over the weekend I was telling her about it because I did on Friday and left on Saturday and she's Like, Oh, you all this stuff in common maybe it's video maybe you should like meet in real life and give it a second shot. So I left the date because my phone was going to die. So it was on the edge. So I was I was also kind of done. So I'm like, Hey, my phone is going to die like I think maybe it's time you know we can whatever and he's like this kind of awkward. Like, are we just going to end this way and I should have just been like this isn't a match, but I couldn't bring myself to say it over video. So I was like Oh we can talk another time, but I just Kinda thought we thought it wasn't feeling either. But then he did message me and has been messaging me so I'll get your thoughts. I think I know where I'm feeling but I'll get your thoughts. Yeah I feel like there's only so much video can hinder the situation and I don't know I kind of feel like an percentages if you walked away from the date feeling like eighty percent into him. Yeah. Then it'd be like, yes, let's take it off video maybe it was a video that could make up for twenty percent but I, feel like you're coming off the state feeling like forty percent like eighty percent the other way. Yeah. Okay. So you're twenty percent interest like there's no way video can can really hinder you from that eighty percent or I. I cannot make up for that eighty percent. I hear already gave you like a weird impression to begin with I think that common our podcast Amari offended. So He's GonNa, twenty percent off. So I would just say I. Think. I. Think it's done.
00:10:01 - 00:15:03
Yeah, it's one of those things that I'm very I either like you or I don't, and this isn't just with dating with friends and everything but then you do hear all these stories of how it can grow over time and people who really didn't like people at the very start. So I do sometimes question if I'm cutting off people too. Early, you can look at it like you know what you want or you could look at it that you're not giving enough people a chance. Yes, and we talked about this a lot I think people do end up not giving each other enough time like is he being persistent in wind to meet up or? Any other things like he hasn't actually asked to do another call or. Also, like this feels weird to like break it off with. A linger, but I did have another virtual date this week that ended up just being over phone. And I actually think, I, prefer that as the first meet but the Condo just like flu effortlessly. So I feel like maybe as a comparison to this and it really is a sign that this just wasn't the right fit I think sometimes you just jive in sometimes you don't it I don't think it has to do with the phone or the video is its energy. Yeah, and that was. Okay, well, we work through my problem. He's not listening any anyways. So yeah, it's not as cup of tea not offending anybody here. Yeah I wanted to. Talk about the dates but I, know for sure this one is not listening. So a tip for anybody who goes on a date with Julie? Can you just like if you're not into the PODCAST, just don't say it. To keep it to yourself just like cool podcast. Good for you. I get it. You know not everyone is as introspective and high emotional IQ as of our listeners I. Get it. But I'm also not like you're not judging other people's jobs either you're GonNa like, Oh, I looked on your link dinner all your job history I mean, not my cup of tea but good for you or not even that it's like, Oh, I see that your data analyst but I don't know about the way that you analyze data. For you. Someone. That's a weird way but. Give him the credit benefit of the doubt is some people are just very awkward to. Like maybe that was his way of trying to relate to you. He said that he's a very honest person. Honest versus offensive. I don't know there. There's a thin line there but let's get to know you know like I think everybody likes that that update and I'm curious what happens with the date guy? Yeah and I think it's also it's a good reminder that just because someone has a lot of similar interest to you doesn't mean that it's a fit and actually this guy asked me on the date. He's like Oh. What are your interests other interests? So we can judge each other and I was like I don't really think about it that way because he was like really into golf and sports and I'm like that's not really my cup of tea. But if you want go do that on a Sunday and I go do something else like who cares like as long as you're making time for me. I don't need. We don't need to have identical tastes of Intra in interest. That's what makes it interesting I don't want to date myself exactly. You want common values and common beliefs but I don't think you need common interests all the time now that gets real boring real fast. Yeah. I'm with you on that but I am happy about our episode because we've we're talking to cat hairs on this. Episode she's such a sweetheart. First of all, she has her own podcast, but she is one of the last Standing Virgin Women in New York City aiding in New York City she's a burgeon I think what I loved about this episode though is even if you're not a virgin like many of our listeners, probably it did make me re examine what sex means because hearing it through someone's Lens. That is. Really Analyzing Saxon like all the different meanings that holds where so many of us myself included tax and don't think about it. It was nice to take that step back in like hear someone else views this through a different Lens and we always talk about relationships with other people. But your relationship with sex is also something we need to focus on it is a relationship in itself and the way we talk. About sex really reveals like who we are ultimately. So this conversation with her was I opening so many fronts and brought up some of the earlier memories about sex from both of us just like the earlier days like how we learned about pleasure. What is pleasure even mean, but I will tell you this after we had this conversation remember I brought up ut is I was like one thing that Oh yeah the Tell. Sight of sexes that you could get you ti lot of women get is urinary tract infections. If you ever had one girl, you know what I'm talking about if you never had your so damn less lucky. But for Cana haven't had a UT in five years right after we get off the call with cat I give it fucking Uti and then again the week later.
00:15:04 - 00:20:05
Julie. I wasn't even like fucking like rabbits just all of a sudden. My body was like Oh wait. That's right you. Heard you mention ut on the podcast titled. You have manifested this for yourself but back to. Harris. For this episode, we'll get to it very soon but before that I will reveal last week's would you rather this is a hot topic question for everyone. So the question was if you could time travel for a one day, would you rather travel into the past to change one moment in a previous relationship or would you rather travel into the future to see who you end up with in ten years such a good one? This is a great one. We really got to make this. Would you rather book? I am to make this. Because it does reveal so much about you as well. Like in this moment in time how you look at life and there were again a ton of discussion in the facebook group. Some people said, I've made peace with my past. I don't need to travel into pass more curious about who I ended up with and some others have said I really want to change this relationship. In fact, one person said, can you change the moment you decide to get into a relationship with someone meeting saying no to them yeah. So that's one way of looking at it and others have. Said I really need to see like if I'm on the right path to meeting the right person and I want I, just want to know I'm not ending up alone so I I'd rather go into the future in ten years. So it's interesting because I found a few people on Instagram poll that I knew personally because one of them said the past she's married with children now like Oh that makes sense like you don't need to see the future and you kind of know what your future looks like but then I did see some people the futures side that we're. Committed relationships. It's unlike that's interesting. It doesn't necessarily need to tie that. No, it actually doesn't need to tie to your current relationship status. It's just your current perspective and your your mindset. Right. So what would you say Julie? So I would definitely say future because I. Think you know the past is the past got me to where I was. There are certain things I would definitely change like I would not have stayed in that terrible friends with benefits situation as long as I did like I would definitely go back and change that maybe stay for like three months not close to two years. So that would be a change I would make. But Yeah I think overall you Kinda just need to go through things and like I could argue that if I wasn't in that friends with benefits situation than maybe I would have met someone that would have been a long term partner during that time but it also I don't think I'd be on the career path I'm on I don't think I would have met like my big love after that if that was the case like I, just think so many things that have defined me would not have played out so. I think it's a dangerous slope to like be like, how can I redo? What's happened future I think had I'll admit like I'm always anxious to know what's going to happen in the future. So I'd love to see you know that crystal ball. That's just like, Oh, you're happy whatever tap means and then like okay however I get there I get there. I. Know I'll be in this position and I know I'll have this in my life. What would you do? That is yeah I had that initial I thought too. So I I talked this over with my boyfriend too because I asked him the question I think ultimately, I had to think about in what way would affect how I live my life today. If I went into the past. It wouldn't necessarily how I live my life today and I think I would choose that because the moment I wanna change and someone brought this up in facebook group to is maybe I don't want to go back to change something but just to enjoy that moment in the little bit longer and to be grateful for that moment, I think there are moments in the past that I wish I would have marinated in a little bit longer. I don't need to change it but I think about like it were to go into the future in ten years I. Don't see myself with my current boyfriend how would that inform our act today and I think? She'd like it because I think it would impact high act today regardless if in the future I see myself with him I may feel a little lazy. I. Don't need to work for my relationship both anyway, if I don't see him in my future, I may become I may just check out who? Probably would go but then I can flip you can flip it and say if you didn't see him then you could be like, okay now I'm GonNa Pivot and find that person. Right. So then what I get out of this relationship, I probably would even though it's going great I probably would just cut short and say, well, we don't have a future and be hard to stay knowing that you aren't GonNa be there absolutely and who's to say the person you end up ten years from now is your ultimate happiness.
00:20:05 - 00:25:00
That's a correct way. Let's take a point 'cause we've we've talked about. This over and over again, sometimes you're big loves best relationships might not be for the long haul. Yeah. Maybe in ten years from now is just a little break that you took before finding that big love or getting back together with someone radio it just there's just so much information that's missed. That could potentially hinder how you live life today. So that's why I'm not going to the future. I rather go in the path past marinating love here the results from what everybody said through our social channels and it looks like it's thirty percent of people chose that they would go into the past. Seventy percents that they would travel into the future I. think that makes sense. Yeah. With similar views of how you how you felt Julie to. They just want to feel rest assured that they end up with someone isn't there happy that's all they need to know. We all have affair of the unknown, right? Yeah. So I can help with that the past is. The past, but I totally see your point is sometimes what you see in the future. My not help you current day. So you got break her parents to that like an and could you change the future? You know if you knew if you knew what the future currently stands, could you change it based on your actions today or are you just Fox life? No matter. What you do. You'RE GONNA end up way who knows. Various. To See. Cat Harris in the future what will happen with everything? I like yeah. When she loses her virginity, that's the ultimate future for her I, I like to be one of the first rounds of people that I know about this. I think also like one of the things that I'm excited about in this episode is we've talked about it with her. There is a certain stigma of someone that is virgin still in their thirties like you think of them certainly way by cat like you met her, you probably would never think that she was virgin still ever. Yeah. Is She coined the phrase she stays out to make out. Still get. Issues she finds intimacy intimacy and sex. This is what's so interesting about this conversation she breaks down where she says intimacy is separate from sex in could. You could have both where you can have them separately and she's holding onto both. So she's a virgin in terms of sex and intimacy. It's super fascinating, and then we'll get to that conversation very soon. But first we got to thank our sponsor better help for making this episode. Happen. You know we talk about the past we talk about the future but the only thing we can really focus on is the present and during these unprecedented time some. Of Us may be experiencing some weird feelings for me it's been feelings of anxiousness helplessness all of that. So better help has been there to make sure that I get the help that I need. They offer online counseling with professional credible and compassionate therapists in a safe in private environment. Their counselors specialize in all sorts of topics like trauma relationships, depression, and with over three thousand US licensed professionals across all fifty states they make it easier than ever to. Find, help in fact, so many people have been using better help their recruiting additional health lawyers in all fifty states and Alford dateable listeners. Only you get ten percent off your first month with the code dateable skit started today by going to better help dot com slash dateable enjoying over one million people taking charge of their mental health. Again, that's better help dot com slash dateable and use the Code D. A. T. A. B. L. E. for ten. percent off your first month. So before we get to cat just a couple announcements, we do this every week but definitely join our facebook group. This is where you can do the polls. You can have great discussions weekly happy hour you name it instagram and then leave us a rating and review that is our three ass for you. So you can be connected to dateable all the time short and sweet with WHO and now it's time for cat hairs. So before this interview, Julie Pulled Esam Stats and she was like I'm having a really hard time pulling current stats. So the hard it was very hard. So the most reasons that she could pull was from twenty fourteen where it says that two point, four percent of women at three point three percent of men between the ages of thirty and thirty four virgins as are one. Point five percent of women and one one point six percent of men between the ages of thirty, five to thirty nine. We've also found so many articles where you know almost like Click Bait with their with their titles and headlines. One is called if it hasn't happened by thirty, there's probably a very good reason or virgin still a virgin at thirty five. WHAT'S WRONG Headlines like that. But these are all the questions to be asking our guest today cat hairs. Hi Cat.
00:25:01 - 00:30:09
Guys. I. Don't know if I'm ready for these questions. So here's a little background on cash. She currently lives in Brooklyn. She's been there for seven years originally from Texas where in Texas Dallas detail. Yes clean here. Clear I don't get where the clear is come from What have you seen Friday night? Lights No. Miss the Joe Walsh my Gosh Okay interview over. I am. Getting off this call and watching the Friday night. As soon as possible, but back to you because you're more important than Friday night lights, she's thirty four years old she's single and actively going on dates. She's also the host of the refined collective podcast where we were on it was. Such an honor to be on your podcast to and upcoming author super exciting. She's dating as a woman of faith in a modern culture and abstaining from sex until marriage her UNICORNS exist. We found one we finally found the pot at the end of the goal and I'm just looking for my other I'm like another pod over here. Word is you need by name so I guess is just one maybe. polly corn. Folly Cord we've had our polly corn. So when we were on cats show. We had a sort of a I, would guess a teaser into this conversation where you talked about how you've gone on your own journey to decide to abstain from sex. So this is yet to come full circle to get here I to talk about the juicy details. I ca- are the first questions that come to mind. One is at what point Do you reveal that your Virgin Oh girl I am telling people on the first or second day. Okay. By the time this episode goes I will probably be thirty five because my birthday is day. So we happy. Birthdays over there. But for a long time I, felt embarrassed about not having sex I was proud of it but also conflicted about it which looking back twenty twenty hindsight was very revealing. It wasn't my decision for a long time. It was like I have to do this because I'm Christian and quote unquote good Christian girls don't have sex until marriage and so I would get in these situations with guys and feel like you know doing everything but sex sore getting naked on the first or second date and being like well I'm good like white my hands clean and go home and and then they're like great. We know where this is headed and I'd be like sank. Valuables. Mall, sorry not sorry but no really blow basically what happened is I ended up coming to a place in my life where I kind of a fork in the road moment where I basically, it was not hard for me to have sex for a long time because I do not have a very active dating life and then I moved to. The girl that was like, let's make out for seven our. Lips are raw. Looking them carmax. But then I moved to New York City. I dated more in one year than I had an dire. Sullen love heartbroken. I went from never having a guy sleep in my bed to having like multiple guys in my bedroom and a few months, and I basically was like First of all if I'm getting naked with the guy on the first night and I'm trying to wait until marriage sex like that's not a great game plan and also not very hind to the person I'm seeing and it's kind of sending mixed messages. So I kind of decided maybe like six years ago that I just wanted to be super front will because I feel like what happened is I dated a guy and we got a few months and our relationship when we have this insane chemistry and finally he's like what's the deal white received together and I was like well, I don't have sex sorry and he was like, wow, this is a deal breaker for me as goals dealbreaker for me too, and we both walked away pretty heartbroken and I kind of walking away from not realized first of all, I need to figure out if this is something I really believe it because of it's something I really believe in should not be ashamed to talk about it. And just as it's a deal breaker for me, it's a deal breaker on the other side for someone else and I don't want to lead them on I talk about it so much in my every life now for work I've I mean it's super easy for me to talk about and on the first day I'll be K- way I just want to let you know I don't have sex until marriage, and that's not just like a cute thing I say like it's actually a thing and so I just want to let you know and see where you're at with that I totally respect if that's not where you're at on if it's not then might not be a great fit.
00:30:09 - 00:35:00
So I'm curious because I could see like, let me know what your story was but when you are in Texas like, did you encounter more people that were kind of on the same boat as you in terms of religion, and then how did that change when you were in Brooklyn because I think of Brooklyn is like super, open minded kind of sex positive like what's been your experience with that whole transition tation everywhere oh my gosh, absolutely. So we so I grew up in Dallas Texas, which is kind of the Bible belt or the belt buckle of the Bible Belt I didn't grow up in a Christian. Christianity in the south is kind of like that smell that you smell I walk into your parents house after not being there for a long time. This is what home smells like. Dosed and detergent and spices in the cabinet. But then you're there for five minutes, you don't smell it anymore until you leave and come back that's kind of white Christianity in the south is like so even if you don't or going to church, it's like that thing that everyone does on Sundays. The concepts and values and principles are really everyone knows it, and so I became a Christian when I was sixteen years old on my own and my family thought I was crazy. They probably still the crazy God at your family isn't religious. This was your own. My own journey everyone in my family is on their own journey to so you know I kind of had that quintessential like experience where I was like, oh. My Gosh I believe in God and my whole life kind of Jane. So definitely in southern Christian culture and Church culture I worked at a church, I was at Camp Counselor at a Christian camp in college and I mean I know people that did not kiss until their wedding day which I am I.. Yup Respect you or how's that going So is definitely very common and it's expected. So the thing with the south is a, of course, a ton of people were having sex, but they knew the quote unquote rule. So they WANNA talk about it and the thing about moving to a city like New York is it's not a quote unquote Christian city. Now it's almost like taboo that you're not having sex it is it absolutely but it's also people didn't. Grow up in the church. So I was going to church and a lot of my friends that were going to church with me were living with their boyfriends and having a lot of casual socks and so I was like wait a is this like I don't understand the smartest thing and the thing with New York as people everyone is just they are who they are and I think one thing that has felt really freeing to me about being in. New York I felt so scared of being found out and most of my friends don't believe what I believe about. God don't believe what I believe about sex and they fully support in love my decision for me in fact, it was my friend. One of my best friends doesn't share my faith and definitely loves a lot of sex and when I was at that fork in the road moment of I don't know what I believe about this. So I. Think. I'm just going to start sleeping around and she was like, no, you've believed this for almost thirty years for a reason and just because you're horny right now does it me and she's like I want you to have sex. You can just get it off your back but you need to figure out what you believe and you say that your God cares about this. So you should figure out why and I was like, well, who gave you the right? So like when your friends talk about sex and like you have that Brunch, talk liquor you intrigued are you can't eat like what's your feeling? Of course I mean for me I never WanNa make anyone else feel uncomfortable. So I never expect anyone just because this is what I'm doing doesn't mean that's what everyone should do. It's I think that the God that I. Believe in is a God that honors Personal Agency and Atonomy, and so I should not do something because it's what I quote. Unquote should do I want to do something because it's coming from the inside of and so I want honor where anyone is at in their journey and so when my friends have their sex stories, I might tell me about the positions like I. Have, my arsenal ready. And and yeah, we can talk about other things and they definitely don't feel comfortable although I will say I was at a party a couple years ago and it was getting getting late in the night and a lot of wine was being drank or drunk, and one of my friends there didn't know that I didn't have sex and goes mad if anyone is in their thirties not having sex, they are a freaking loser. Oh. Man Well I don't have sex and it's like the party died.
00:35:00 - 00:40:04
It was like. I definitely like killed that party and but we got to have conversations after that I think for the most part I've been very surprised that he almost everyone that I've shared with that like really loves me as walking with me even if they don't believe it, they're like almost everyone has said I. Wish I would have late waited longer. You know I've never heard someone that's like I wish I had sex way earlier if anything they're like man like I'm good for you for being intentional about it even if they don't agree with I think what is so fantastic and unique about. Your story is I think when people read the show notes for this episode, they're going to think, oh, she grew up in a religious household never questioned anything just lived by whatever her family believed in and she just kept up with those beliefs. But your story is you've found faith on your own and you made this decision on your own and you're very intentional about what your beliefs are, what I find. So admirable about you, which is what your friends have been saying to you as you have such a strong sense of direction and believe I think for a lot of people. In our generation we lack that direction we're just go wherever the wind takes us, but you have such a strong sense of believe is so you've talked about how your friends have reacted what about the guys you dated what are their first reactions when you tell them? Let's take a sect to thank our partners shape permit while this year hasn't been totally smooth at least we can look smooth Shave Ferman offers a collection of awesome shape. Wear not only smoothed you out but also feels comfortable nine. Oh, when I feel confident in my clothes I also feel empowered it's an awesome feeling. SHAPER DOT COM. I can easily find the perfect shape where ranging from tanks, shorts, bodysuits, and more Julian I. in fact, just Loungewear leggings perfect for working proposal, and they're like my Go-to at home attire right now and unlike leading brands sheep selection is half the price making feel like a huge sale every time. But in addition to the everyday discounts and promos cheaper man has on their website, we have a deal just for our listeners that will save you an extra ten percents off your order but you must go to shape dot com slash dateable and use the code dateable that's. Dot Com slash dateable code, DAT AB L. E. to get our exclusive listener count an extra ten percents off your order again shape remain dot com slash dateable coat dateable. Now back to this episode, you've talked about how your friends have reacted what about the guys you dated what are their first reactions when you tell them? Yeah. So I've gotten pretty much everything like I said I've dated some guys multiple. Guys where they have sex outside of dating me, and then we date and honestly it is for in those situations. It's usually dealbreaker thing and I have friends that have dated people and they started dating a guy and they say, Hey, I'm waiting until marriage stop sacks, the guys like okay. I love you I'll do that I haven't ran across that way those friends in Texas or friends in New York Ooh. Both. So I've lived in L. A. New, York and taxes, and I was super active in my church in and everything in La as well and the thing is is most of the Christian Guy Date. It's kind of like a it's not an assumption because I know a lot of Christian guys and girls that don't wait until marriage to have sex I just usually because I bring it up. So early. It usually isn't a thing. It's either like an I don't make the site dramatic conversation I. Think so many women may be meant to, but women are like we need to talk I need to tell you this thing I like, Hey, I'm not having sex and like we can totally have a conversation about that. If you're down to down to do that if that's already a pre. Existing belief if you haven't done that before but want to do that now but I just I think for me. I'm like I don't want to waste anybody's time. So not really a huge issue. I think the bigger issue for me has been navigating or honestly asking myself at this point what is sex and if I'm not having sex, how far do I want to go that? For you because we went on a date cat and you told me that my first question would be like. So what's off limits a? So. This is a new thing that in the last few years I've really been kind of unpacking is what is sex and I started thinking. So for me, it used to be penis and vagina. That was sex and so as long as the peanuts at go in the whole. Virgin. Was Okay Yeah Yeah. Yes. So I would do pretty much everything but so naked nine Djing.
00:40:04 - 00:45:10
A lot of. Like I'm doing anal lots. Yes lots. So I've never done anal I've done oral so pretty much everything but penetrative sex badge on anal sex on then I started thinking wall. But what if you identify as LGBTQ Are you not having sex bright? What if you are have a partner that is impotent? Can you never have sex again? What what's the goal of sex is the goal of sex like this physical like let's put this object and this object or is it intimacy? What role does. He play in that so I, I read I don't know if you guys know who Peggy Orange Tunas I've heard the name before but enlighten us. Yeah. So I love her, she is a writer for the New York? Times and wrote a book called girls in sacks years ago, and then another one called boys and sex that just came out this past year. Essentially, she spent the better part of two decades interviewing young girls from High School Through College in Twenty s age all throughout the US and then did that with boys as well about their sexual experiences and so she was talking about how basically her whole thing is we've got to stop looking at sex like it's this vertical ladder to like a certain achievement or level to surpass and view it as a horizontal experience because really if you're what what happens on Hookup Culture In College as girls are losing their virginity or everyone's having a shutdown, it's sex and but it's like there's no intimacy there's no relationship and so she's like who is the more sexually experienced person the Merson who is knows their partner and has sensuality and kissing and touching or the person that has a wham. Thank you ma'am moment and so that really kind of expanded or challenge to expand my view So I would say up until a few years ago it was everything but penetration was on the table for me, and now I've you sex as more of like this holistic experience. So a lot of for Vermes I've taken off the table which doesn't excite me necessarily. well, I, but I really I really think that for me I had to I. Think the first question I had to just really with is like what is sex and I do think it's more than just an object another object. So that's definitely changed towage show up. Yeah. Do you think like the core of why you want to abstain or believe in abstinence is that you don't want to partake in this like hookup culture where it's meaningless? Where is this coming from like? In the sense of the belief flake I, guess my question for you is if you met someone or maybe you've had this experience where you felt tempted because you did have such a deep emotional bob but maybe you didn't get into marriage with that. Make you consider more than just the everyday person it really just like this stance of marriage that's the factor. Ya think that's such a great question. I could definitely go on so many different site Tana's so maybe I'll just I'll. Hit a few of them. Yes. So first of all I think hookup culture it's one of those things that we think is empowering, but I'm not quite convinced that it's actually empowering and there's this really interesting book called a return to modesty by Wendy Charlotte, she is like grew up in night nineties hookup culture. She's culturally Jewish but not practicing she wouldn't really consider herself a religious person and she was studying to be a feminist major and basically her big argument as feminist was. Hookup culture is degrading women even though it's we've kind of positioned at as like I feel I am empowered were still most of the time not really getting what we want and saying like you actually don't need to know my name you don't need to honor me or value my mind or even my body just scratch and like we're both using each other's bodies to scratch image, and there's something about that that feels really flattening to what it means to be human being and. When I go to another person and I've done this outside of sex like I've been like I'm going out tonight and I'm getting me some when I stay out till I make out or meet a guy at the bar and you know have a fun time back our apartment or my apartment and I had a moment when I was doing that once and it was at a bar. Brooklyn, ause making out this guy and I had this moment where I thought I could literally be kissing my hand right now right interchangeable. Yeah and I felt like really copy feeling to think that this human being that has a story that has desires that has dreams and hopes.
00:45:11 - 00:50:07
That I basically, the only reason I'm having a connection with him is because I want something from him and I have an edge that it's easier if he can scratch it for me real quick. So for me that is kind of like the hard part for me about hookup culture is I think it starts out as this like I just. WanNa, have fun I. Just I just think can really flatten our experiences humans. Now, the whole you know if you're in a long term relationship and all of that, here's the deal if I have sex outside of marriage and that happens that's not the end of the world's okay I think for me it used to be like, oh my gosh if I don't do this, I can't be a Christian God won't love me. It'll be so shameful by really for me it's about it's about. Sony things but I just I think that ultimately like the physical manifestation of the spiritual and I think being physically naked with someone. So powerful, even what happens neurologically with the dopamine and oxytocin that's released in physical intimacy or Gaza even a doctor anthropologists like Helen Fisher, she has ted talk and her holding there's scientists actually are starting to say there's no such thing as casual socks because of neurologically what happens with the hormones released so for me, it's about what is it that? I, really want. So earlier you said you know you feel like you've sense that I have direction. So for me I kinda paused and I try and. Life what isn't that? I really want what I really want is a long-term committed monogamous relationship with a man that loves God that loves people that has a vision for his life and I want that dots the life I want, and so what's going to set me up for success and not today that that doesn't mean for all people that like sex can't be on the table but for me I'm like man I want the full thing I want the intimacy I want the commitment I want all of it and I, think that for me sex. Is this physical manifestation of this like mind body soul spirit commitment and I also think there's something super powerful about saying no to something really good in the moment for like a greater vision and doing that with another person and saying, wow, we said no to something that's like freaking awesome and we can't keep her hands off each other and we said, no, because we wanted to choose like our integrity basically, I WANNA be my word to myself and I want to hold the value, and so I trust this person and this person can really trust me. We're married. We got kids you know I've gained weight. I'm not a sexy that used to be. He's on a work trip with some hot assistant idol no and. I we've kind of developed this muscle of integrity and disciplined together and shown each other like, Hey, we know how to choose a greater good. Then the momentary satisfaction right now. So it's less about marriage per se at least if I'm understanding correctly, it's more about just like having what marriage stands for not necessarily the ceremony but like finding that person that you're like utterly committed to is that what I'm gathering from you were. So I would say marriage is is an important key to the academy. That might not be for someone else. But for me, that's where kind of like my faith comes in and I feel like marriages this spiritual spiritual thing and I think that it is such a reflection to of like the God human relationship of commitments, and so I do want to get married and I want to experience sex within marriage I'm not one of those people I. Think there's a lot of toxic preachers pastors out there. They're like if you have sex outside marriage like you can't have good sex, God's not going to bless your sex life and. Not True Height Yo that was third of the sermon it's more you associate marriage with those things to you. That is when you get that commitment Eh. Sake. I'm following now sort of make sure while the page I'm sure you've had this scenario presented to you and I'm all beat the one million person to present it back to you. Is I still remember that episode of Sex and the city where Carey is really attracted to this guy and they have these hot and heavy may cow sessions and she can't wait to sleep with him and when they finally do sleep together, it was like cricket so boring they ended up parting ways. Do you think that is a realistic scenario that may be getting married to so many? Side to have sex and the sex is not great war is that just something that the media has sold to us that you have to take them out for a test drive for you commit to them that's a really, really great great question.
00:50:07 - 00:55:02
So first of all, I don't think that by abstaining from sex promises you good sex and just like if you've never run a marathon before. And you go out for your first day of training it's probably not gonNA be pretty. I. Think that's that is totally possible. I have a lot of friends that have more so dealt with a lot of shame around their sexuality now that it's quote unquote on the table and they're allowed to have sex, they're still shame of I've been told this is wrong for so long that now I don't know how. To turn it on and I think the thing that I think though is if I am in it for the long haul with someone, we can work things out I love science I think like learning about the science behind our bodies is so fascinating to me. So what happens when we orgasm as dopamine is released and dopamine? Is that rewards center in our brain that basically it's trying to create patterns and? neuropathy. So essentially when you orgasm with something whether it's your hands or someone else or within sex the more you have orgasm climax with that thing because our minds want to develop nerve pathways and patterns to short-circuit pleasure, it essentially starts to anticipate. Oh, when I am intimate in this way, I get aroused and I have an orgasm in. So over time it over like years and years and years you become. Even aroused by the thought of this person or things. So I think I think that kind of really debunks like if you have a bad sexual experience, the first time, even the first ten times or I'm not GonNa say about sexual experience. But let's say like you and your partner me and my husband on our wedding night it's like first of all I don't even know if it's going to go in. Let's Let's. GonNa, really hurt But that means like over span of time with we keep working at it and communicating with each other and I think within that committed relationship but it's so it can be a really safe place to practice and play than really scientifically speaking you have the opportunity to have the best sex of your life in a long term relationship as opposed to like while that guy wasn't. Good and bad last night or a we've been trying for a month and it's not really great. I just think it takes communication and it takes learning each other's bodies and yeah Yeah. So He's a longer term mindset you have. Yeah. I think. So and I would say what's not true about the sex and the city episode is I mean I've had I have a friend that's a sexologist you guys. Should totally have on your podcast yes. Incredible. She's not the first person that's told me I have had friends go to like married couple friends of mine that have gone to sex conferences and they've said, the same thing is if you want to know if you have sexual chemistry compatibility with someone make out with them, minutes have a passionate make out if you guys can have a passionate make out chances. Are, you're going to be able to have really good sex together, and so I. I'm not saying that the Kerry thing isn't possible I think it does happen but I also think there's another side to that story that we don't necessarily want to talk about well I. Think it's like giving it time for sure like because I think the irony of that is carrying him had like the best make outs just. Late right. There is like I actually had a sex sex coach on our podcast a while back in I. Remember her saying that it's not that two bodies like can't work. It's just are you going to give it the amount of time and patients? Get it there and if it's not saks. It goes back to your question. What is sex I? Could it be? Could it be like another different way? One question for you? What about masturbation is that like on the table is that off the table? Sex. Able. Yeah Though. It's great that you just asked me this because I just went live with a podcast episode. Yesterday is masturbation a sin. It's a two part series that went live yesterday in the next one is going out next week and it's already the most downloaded podcast episode I've ever had for me. Masturbation is I could go way until like theology on it with you guys and unpack all. That stuff but when people say, what do you think about masturbation and I might I think it can be good i. think it can be harmful and I think it can be in in between as well and I think one reason I think especially in religious circles like masturbation as sin as lust fantasy and I for one am not an advocate of porn for thousand reasons because. So often degrades women and over fifty percent of people in the porn industry are being trafficked and aiding the human slavery trade. So there's this lottery ins for that but I think a lot of people.
00:55:02 - 01:00:09
There's a Smith masturbation and Brian are mutually exclusive, which is no definitely. And I think why am I think masturbation can be so helpful because a if I don't accept my own body, my own desire, how can I accept someone else's body? Right and also I think especially as women, we are not taught to value or pleasure and I think it. I, don't I don't know if this just because. So much of the world I'm Christian women it's like well I'm just supposed to be quiet mousy and do and he wants I think it's I think that's in culture at large email sexual experiences when when women are interviewed on, was it a positive sexual experience? It's typically the responses if he had a good time whereas the guys response is yeah, I got I got off. So I, think knowing our body is so powerful to be able communicate consent. And I can't communicate consent if I don't know what I do or do not want So yeah, I. Think Masturbation can be as wonderful thing a good thing I think you can just like how alcohol can be died for some people and be great for some people. I, think you have to figure that out for yourself but I think with sexuality. So often we have the psych strike on your out mentality for wherever you are on the spectrum with your decisions. Were whatever you have or haven't on their shame. Absolutely. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, it's like if you have too many sexual partners, you're seen as some shameful and if you don't, you're stigmatize as right someone lanes. And, it's really odd it's like you can't win in this. Now you bring up so many great points about the hookup culture and how we view women view sex as the pleasure for the man I used to have a secret sex blog I've told about it I never really still try to fight it every day. He'll domain for it but for when I lived in New York I, triple my number in like three months or something like that I just like I was giving away right giving away and I serve this blog because I thought it'd be really empowering talk about all the men I slayed. But when you look back to some of my I was reading some my old blog post the other day really embarrassing. But the way I conceptualize everything was always that I showed him like I gave him a good time. That's rain I. Didn't call him. I didn't give him my phone number when he asked to put my number in his phone, I gave them a fake number somehow that fell empowering and in hindsight it so not empowering because it just further proof that I was just being objectified and I remember talking to I've never faked an orgasm by spoke to many women who've have and they said that if I fake an orgasm is shows makes me more memorable for the guy so that he even if he doesn't call me, he'll still remember me that is awful that is Always in service of the man, so I'm a huge advocate for masturbation. We've had Laura Decarlo on the show who's in who's a pioneer in the sex toy industry where I think it's like your analogy with the marathon it this is your training session here, start training your body I. So when you're up for that race, you know what you're doing. You know what? What are the right buttons to push for yourself when you just shared that Oh he's GonNa remember me. I think the thing is as we are like I'm so powerful. What we're really saying, do you want me? Yes No. Literally giving our power away and we're in low self worth I do Kinda. Blame sex of the city for some of that like I think sexual work. In many ways a change sex a lot like I actually usually do this like every. So often I'll restart that series from the beginning and I did it recently over quarantine because you know you've got a lot of time you got time. And I was watching it and I'm like, wow, things have really changed I. Think this is the first time I've really watched it hit me how much things have changed because i. think what you just said you a is very much what's coming from the message there and it exacts the city put sex on the map is something you could openly talk about like if you go back years Before that. So it was instrumental for sure. Don't want to discount it, but I think nowadays I mean I. Think There's some of that happening still but I think there is more of this like women that I mean I think that's also men have changed a lot like I've been with a lot of men that are like it makes me happier to make sure that like you come in. Is a shift of like this less Alpha male type. You know that's like more of this like equal partnership that starting to arise in our generation that quite frankly in the sex in the city generation, it was a lot of game playing like some of the stuff that we're trying to get away from so.
01:00:10 - 01:05:13
Yeah I have a very logistical question. Like sex toys the have the inserts that you basically like put in yourself. That's off limits. I'm assuming right like it's like. Okay I've used says before in but also. I think because I haven't had sex like I can't put really big things inside of me. So. I've I've gone back and forth on on that in the past episodes like, oh, my gosh. I, don't WANNA lose my virginity to a sex toy rabbit. To. Also, I love that episode of sex in the city. Do you know the one where the rabbit? For us. Intervention with Jillette and I actually I quote this in my book when I'm talking about the Masturbation Chapter I'm like saying, yes, it's good but if masturbation is removing you from community if you are like Sex I believe that sexuality is innate human desire to get outside of ourselves and connect with other people while other that I think sex is a part of that. But I just think it's a human desire for connection. So if my sexual decisions are isolating me from others. Then I think that's caused to just be curious about that I forget what where I know that was a little tangent. Hard No. Though you're saying like put something in you that's like not it's not and I know that's GonNa rub a lot of people. The wrong way I would say for me or the right way you know what? Though I feel like that actually could like help ease you into though because it's like, yeah, it's again I getting to know your body. To go back to your dating life a little. STARTED TOUCHING On a tangent so your dating life I guess. I. Guess Two Parter. Dated someone that also holds your beliefs in the second piece is have there been times that you feel like a relationship that you're really excited about prematurely ended because your beliefs weren't online. Yes, and yes, I have dated a lot of guys that share my beliefs then who I've dated guys that are in their thirties and virgins I, think it's less common for guys. So I would never expect the person I'm with to have waited up until this point. So I'm have zero judgment on where you have been or what you have or haven't done what I AM interested as like, what is the journey we are going to go on together and I have dated guys at are virgins. I have dated guys who have had sex for different seasons of their lives than abstained or stopped for like faith reasons. Yes. Have One hundred percent falling in love with guys and that has been taken off the table and the relationship is ended and. That's been super hard. So when you say fallen in love with guys like if there's one or two that you want to pinpoint like what did that relationship look like were they like cool let's do this and then decided like this is actually I can't do it like what was that time period? How long did they last? Yeah. So the didn't last long no none more than six months. Okay but it was just one of those things where so all reference one in particular while still kind of being big to protect. And then I'm however you say. A. Mini So with one person, it was just we met and totally headed off it was just one of those I felt like I was having my sex in the city moment. At this guy I just it was kind of this instant connection. We talked for hours and hours and hours, and we went dancing and I ended up going home with him that night and we messed around and had a great time and I thought I'll never hear from this person again because I'm a New York that's what people do right and hear from him a few hours after I got home I can't wait to see you again when when can we get together? Can we get together tomorrow and he proceeded to sweep me off my feet and we had you told him at this point or not had it. So the still when I was I'm so clear now that was one. That was kind of like my sugar got off the pop moment after we broke on was like, okay. I need to figure out what I believe about this, and I also need to communicate much sooner because I created a lot of drama for myself I created for, and I am so freaking heartbroken and that maybe didn't necessarily need to happen If I was more grounded in my decisions.
01:05:13 - 01:10:09
So you know basically it was kind of like something always stopped us from going there either logistically or he had to go homer had go home cy was able to wiggle out of the conversation or a good while, and then in the heat of the moment, one time I just was like listen I urging. In you know I love my timelines. Wow that's actually pretty long to laugh out like. Explicit and saying a guy is dating in. New York. Yeah. But also I travelled a bit I. Was Gone for like a couple of weeks and we facetime he got it. So there were there were his family was in town. So we were seeing each other and having these like cotton heavy moments, but it wasn't really getting to that point, and then once it got to that point, it was like, okay we this probably isn't GonNa work out, but let's try and. And just was I was a hot mess I was not sure what my boundaries were and so I I was so wobbly at the time. So it's I I. Don't I don't WanNa say it's like not a fair example but it it was kind of the example where I was like, wow, like I need to figure out how I WANNA walk this out because up until that point I had never dated a guy where we had even gotten close to that. GotTa Oh. That would be while that'd be really difficult situation. Yeah and I really get hurt his perspective to I. Think it's one of those things if you didn't even see a coming and like it was something, you just didn't think about right I think this day and age I mean we looked at the numbers at the start of this it's your in the like a novelty right? So it's like he probably just didn't even think about it and it was one of those things that came through. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely one of those things it was a messy ending and we tried to. figure out how to make it work for a little bit that's at work. Then we tried the whole. We still we really care about each other. Let's be friends and that didn't work and then. We were you know I don't WanNa, say like young and dumb. But you know we both hurt each other and So kindly, kind of when it finally imploded at the end I mean I did the quintessential went to a bar with my friends got drunk Mike took shots like landed on my best friend more step at like three am and would like his dating what else and I mean nothing to have an I'm such a prude and I don't know what to do and so that ending was so hard and so painful, and then we were able to have some all conversations when the dust settled and I think why I realized in not really knowing. Why I was making my decision to wait until marriage. It. So it wasn't mine and so because of that I I read it a lot of drama in my life. And I think we do that when we don't know why we believe something and if a decision that ours and we can't own ad then when push comes to shove because what I really wanted to do is I wanted to have sex with him but I felt like I shouldn't, and so like I didn't but I was Russo messy with it and so after that, it was like I gotta figure out my why here and I also realized man so I am and I did all the things physically but vaginal sex and I remember having multiple moments with him where I. Felt like I. don't even know that it's necessarily about dislike physical active intimacy, but it's the intimacy that happens when you're naked with someone the lane next week other in the dark talking. Yeah. Him Putting my Bra back on and Ju just these moments that I felt like Oh these moments feel really sacred and I I'm taking this with me and at also made me wonder I mean it's like me a long time to get over this person and I kind of looked back and looked back at Almir relationships of man the people that I went furthest with physically were the. Relationships for me to get over, and that might not be the case for other people. But I realized for me, my heart just get super involved and when the physical is in when the physical is there at like my heart is like I am I'm all in we always say that because I people ask like, should I sleep with him? What should I do and I? Think a lot of it really does come down to you right and how you handle things I think different people are different I think.
01:10:09 - 01:15:13
We can have the whole debate of is there any time that you can be purely casual but there are some people that are able to Kinda separate things a bit more where others don't I think it's important to know yourself and it sounds like you really got to know yourself and I'm curious like how getting to know yourself has now shifted your life given me I feel so free and so before I felt like a victim to my faith affeldt of victim to other people's expectations of me I fell. Victim to what I should and shouldn't do, and now because I have this decision from the inside Al I feel excited about it. I'm like I love that making this decision I feel so good about it and I feel like it's given me so much clarity and dating and I think really when you have vision in any era of your life if you're like, I, want to, you know get a six pack. I have a vision for that. So Future Vision helps US walkout today with clarity and integrity and. Freedom, and so I think whereas before I I was basically kind of how you're saying and hookup culture. We're kind of giving power over who was giving my power over to religious leaders and pastors and you know mentors and I had to take that back and now that I have that I'm like, Oh, I know who I am I know what I want him so clear with what I want I know that I. AM worthy of having it and yeah, those tissue shared are like hard statistics but I might. It's anything's possible. I can meet someone today at the store I can meet that person online people meet and fall in love every single day. So if anything it's just giving me it saved me a lot of heartache and it's just given me so much just clarity and grounded ness and walking forward and dating. So I'm not saying that it's it's been easy. I'm not like oh now I know what I believe and everything's Dating scenario is awesome. That's not like that you know. Ask me tomorrow might be like. but it is good to just feel grounded in who I am and not embarrassed of that or ashamed But no I believe that I believe and I have I hold space for what you believe in and so let's see we're good fit and I'm sure you've had lots of fantasies about the day that. Virginity on our show season eight, episode six we had an episode called losing my virginity at thirty five where we. Yes, we interviewed a woman who was brought up Mormon and she decided on her thirty. Thirty Fifth Birthday that forget it I'm just GONNA lose my Virginia I'm going to have sex. So she ended up going on sexcapades and her conclusion was she was really good as X.. So what are some of the scenarios that you've played out in your head about when you do lose your Virginity, oh? Gosh that's such a good question I mean I think the I think one of the biggest things for me is just trying to manage my expectations excited as I am about that like I can read as much as I want about it. I can learn about different positions and I'm I'm always asking people what's your favorite position? I WANNA know? An? Awesome it really, it's something to have it done before and so do I wanted to be awesome young well, I also know that the majority of women don't climax from penetrative sex, and so I just think so many girls when they're losing their virginity that I, it's going to be this earth shattering moment i. don't know that it will I'm excited about it. I'm excited Chai all the positions I'm excited I love lingerie I, wear it now I love I love feeling sexy I yes alibaba Andre Agassi. But I'm just I'm excited just to explore and get to know myself gets no my partner and hopefully not get a Uti. Girl that's the worst I. It's old cranberry pills. Yes and drink lots of water and P after sex, and that's like all. I would ever tell anybody is like definitely p after sex but I also think about how different it would be to lose my virginity as an adult versus when I was just barely barely a teenager I was sixteen. When I lost my virginity I had no idea which Holo supposed to go in and once it was in, I just kept thinking the sex I. Guess I'm having sex. Wow. Am I having? Sex I didn't know how to enjoy. I didn't know how to communicate with my partner of sixteen like what was I supposed to know? I often think about that if I held out 'til my mid thirties let's say when I have a much different experience and I be able to voice my my needs a little bit more probably right.
01:15:13 - 01:20:02
It probably would be more enjoyable for me. Yeah. I feel like I'm someone that was like a little bit of a late bloomer and like my twenties are not as wide. Eleven. To six. Window I lose my virginity remembering more but I think it was the thing was I was dating this guy, but I wasn't like for heels in love with him. But I think it'd be interesting to be at this age when I've had deeper relationships later on in life because I think like the sex that I've had with partners that I was super in love with was just so different. So I think that Kinda kicks off like at least my takeaways is I just love how like intentional you are about sex like I think like I I haven't thought about it as much as you have in certain ways of you know just like all those intimate moments versus like pure penetration i. Kind, of just think of like sex happening like something you do something that goes with relationships but I love just how much you've been able to kind of dissect what it needs to you what the environment you WanNa be in like what you want your future to look like you've really given it a lot of thought I think no matter what your beliefs are even if you're someone that's already had saks, whatever it may be I think it's important to remember like what you're actually doing in like have that cognitive awareness of what is actually happening not just go through the motions. So I love that I think that it's something I'll try to carry on into my dating life and future relationships. I just thinking about my first sexual experiences and I was in high school but it was with my high school sweetheart. My I love I was madly in love with him. We ended up breaking up when we went to college but years later we ended up hooking up again in La in our late twenties. Early Thirties I can't remember. It was phenomenal. It was. Good. So good and I still remember it was like almost like sleeping with a different mu was sleeping with a different person. Let's be honest. But my takeaway is I think there are a couple of questions we can all be asking ourselves which is. What is our relationship to sex not relationship to the of having sex but relationship to sex in general, and those are some of the things. I think a lot of times we forget because we we always think about sexism relating just two people but also your how you see the act of sex is also a relationship in itself and I don't know if this has ever happened to anybody else. But for me, I've never not placed a face with the penis. But I've oftentimes not placed a penis face like I forget what their penis felt like but I the times but every penis that's been in me I can place a face with and so I think it when my point is, it's still about the person. And not just about their penis in me, and that is the Times that I remember there really memorable. The obviously I remember memorable is the before and after its do we hold hands to we kiss huddled afterwards do we cuddle in? Those are such important moments that you've already experienced cat that is the ultimate form of intimacy. The act of sexist self to me is very animalistic. Yes it's connection but also just sometimes you forget what you're thinking in the moment because you're just doing doing this this very. Sexual Act. But beforehand, I just remember like grazing my hand or a touch, and afterwards a kiss just to say good night. Those are moments that are really memorable. So I hope we don't lose sight as we move forward. I, think hookup culture is sort of dying down as is which is great. But as we come out of quarantine and people are becoming sexually active again, we can't lose sight that what are we having sex in service and you brought this up earlier to cat it's everything you do is. In Service of this greater belief how our own choices right now in service of something of a bigger picture yes, I think that's such. If anyone can hear anything from my story, it's not that I'm trying to make everyone not have socks but the question that I have is what is it that I really want and are my actions in alignment with that? If they are great if they're not, how can I take ownership over that and and shift some of the decisions that I'm choosing to or not to me? and. You know like you said being intentional about I.
01:20:03 - 01:25:06
So often we are victim to life life is happening to us and I think that we actually have so much ownership and autonomy and agency to say, well, this is not the relationship I want or it is the relationship I want or I want it to change, and so really taking ownership over our lives and our decisions as opposed to just sliding in and out of things out of convenience or because I don't think I more of the or because something feels better than nothing. So really just pausing like as what is it that I really want that reminds me so much of what? Julie. The stories you've told about the time you told your friends you. Were ready for relationship but your actions didn't prove it and you were still getting drunk at bars and still acting like you weren't serious about relationships. So that is such an important point for us to take away in every aspect of life you say one thing but your actions also need to vote towards that thing that you believe. Absolutely I think the other takeaway have is I think often not like of people daters in general we don't want to put up more barriers right? Like we don't want like another reason why someone can pass us up and it's this mentality of the scarcity mindset in I think what I love about this story in Love the shift. That you mentioned of when I didn't know what I wanted I actually just brought a lot of confusion into my life, but once I got clear even though yes, in theory I might eliminate someone that doesn't have the same values is that actually a bad thing in theory eliminating some of the doesn't have the same values is a very good thing because that means you're making room for someone that does so I think we need to keep remembering Nestle whatever it might be in your dating life like by being your real authentic south that's helping bring forward someone that is the right fit for you. It's not necessarily limiting your options it's potentially breaking those options to. Light. Walk. Faster. Absolutely an saying I am worth being honest with myself and others about the relationships that I really want and long for rights and absolutely I don't I'm not not. It's not like looking for perfect but it's saying I think especially as women we hide what we really want. We say we don't want kids when we want kids say looking for something serious when he wants serious because we're so afraid of not getting the thing we want and I'm just like if we're spending so much time creating these narratives and building all this evidence why we're not worthy why are we spending just as much if not more time saying like I'm actually worthy of everything. Right and I'm gonNA spend time thinking about possibility as opposed to thinking about how not possible it is for me and how it possible for everyone else and that just keeps me stop absolutely and it's also not fun to be out. I remember like the. Times had like the most drama in my life was like those times where because everyone else had someone in their life that I would take this person that was not treating me well but I had someone I had someone to on the mullet by friends and I had someone to have stories about. But was that really having someone like actually having that person there probably prevented me from actually needing someone that would have been a partner. and equal person not just a one-sided lopsided relationship so I think it's really hard sometimes especially like if you're I'm sure for you to like of all your friends are having sex all the time like it. It's gotta be hard that you feel different but I think having that confidence to be like this is me and friends that except that in people in your lives that love you for who you are I think that's like really the most important thing. I always say I really appreciate people who have very clear taste in whatever it may be in the way they dress or the way they decorate their homes because it shows that they have very strong decision making hails it to steer their life. Don't just blend dairy or they're not wishy washy I can't stand like for me. I'm a meat eater I can't. Yes. It's annoying to have a friend WHO's Vegan but I much rather appreciate a friend who's always vegan versus someone who one day is and one day isn't and can't make up their mind. Can't respect them for it. So I think just having clear direction is so key in today's crazy world and you know bring it back full circle hashtag clear eyes full hearts all the way. Really is. Little hearts can't. Lose. Thank you so much for joining our show as well. So Fun being on yours, and it's just double the conversation double the fun Fun if people want to hear your podcast, a refined collective I'm guessing all the podcast platforms to find you, and if they want to read more about you and especially when your book is coming out, how can they keep updated? Yeah.
01:25:06 - 01:30:05
So instagram as the refined woman at my websites, the refined delman, dot com and if you WANNA stay up to date with emails and launches with my book and. All of that, and if you're like I want to hear more about what you we've about singleness. Then you can go to bit dot, Li Slash TRW dating tips the it dot l. y. slash TRW, dating tips, and that'll get you a free dating guide and then kind of in the loop with I have a private facebook group where I do like weekly coaching staff and that's where you are like I want to know about the book all that stuff it's all in there so you have a name for your book yet. It's called sexless in the city. Oh. ooh. Wow this really is going full circle, the sex of the city in a very different. Polar opposite. Totally. Sex in the city and make carry a virgin own, my God would be so interesting but still keep the other character. You know what's ironic as I've been on this been, they have this like twenties versus thirty something women, which is actually like our generation if you think about it in a lot of the were becoming Virgin St member that episode where she was just like shocked. It's like when they go to the Hamptons anyways I'm clearly a die hard the city fad. At times but You're that girl you are that girl that's like I'm your it girl your ed you're all my Gosh I. can you just keep us updated on everything happened with your life and also your vagina like any activity going on. We want to be in the loop of all. Know. Your favorite sex position. Like a list of ladies like, okay. When it's not time I'm asking her about what do I need I need? Lawyers. Share anything. We. Have Condom wrecking recommendations. All of it music recommendations you've got you gotta get the right songs. Voice to I don't know. Your. bended knee. And your prom that's it recreate the whole that whole scenario of big cat you're awesome. We can't wait to hear more about everything that's going on your life especially with this book sounds really you amazing and fascinating in exile. Much. Thank you for having me ladies. It was awesome. Oh, actually no, I have one last question for you. As you know our show is called the dateable podcast. What does dateable mean to you? What makes someone dateable Oud, the first thing that came to my head as emotionally available Lovin at like that, you know surely available great adding that taught in the most. and. Single. The list. Yes well, a person is emotionally the ultimate emotionally unavailable man is the man in a relationship, right? So Sometimes. Sometimes Loopholes okay. We'll take that answer. That's awesome. So for everyone listening, we're booking guests for season eleven. If you like to be guests on her show, you can either go on our website dateable podcast, dot com and submit, or you can just email us at hello at dateable PODCAST DOT COM If you enjoy this episode which I hope you did because cat is amazing and cat says this on her podcast too which is Oprah asked for reviews. So why can't we ask for? You like US review us, give a five star rating. Please it really helps us to bring on more awesome guests just like cat and tell a friend you know like this I know everyone has a friend who could really benefit from this episode. This is the time call up your friend, share it with them. Yeah. Maybe your friend is someone that's just like a sex a holic or maybe they're also you those saving themselves for marriage. Anyone can get a lot from this war. You think would be a good match for a cat. No, yeah. Wasn't going to say. A. Special matchmakers we've been many matches from the show so it. Being set up it's like I it's my favorite thing done. Okay. We got less. We're going to start a list a waiting list. Okay. We're really going to wrap this up now say. The dateable podcast is part of the FROLIC podcast network. Find more podcasts. You'll love at frolic dot media slash podcast want to continue the conversation I, follow us on Instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag as in any post with the Hashtag stay dateable entrust us.
01:30:05 - 01:30:39
We look at all those pose. Then head over to our website dateable podcasts, dot com there you'll find all the episodes as. Well, as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect, analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums, Roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast, Google play overcast stitcher radio, and other podcasts platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay date of all.