Sex & Sexuality

S12E3: Why is Sex so Closeted?

Dateable Podcast
February 23, 2021
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Sex & Sexuality
February 23, 2021

S12E3: Why is Sex so Closeted?

We're talking sex, no sex, arbitrary rules around sex, and shame around sex as we unpack the differences between straight and gay sexual "norms" with Matthew Beier.

Why is sex so closeted?

We're talking sex, no sex, arbitrary rules around sex, and shame around sex as we unpack the differences between straight and gay sexual "norms" with Matthew Beier. We discuss why heteronormative traditions are still so difficult to break out of, how the lack of "rules" have influenced gay sex culture, and how the fundamental differences have overarching similarities for all of us to keep evolving our views on sex.

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Episode Transcript

S12E3: Why is Sex so Closeted?

00:00:01 - 00:05:018

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Welcome to another episode of dateable. Show all about modern dating. We are back again this week for third episode of the season. Yes the season. That's been so killer so far people keep telling us that but definitely feel like we've gotten some really great guests. This season including guest for this episode is aim is mad and we're about to embark into this discussion about the differences between heterosexual culture and gay sex culture. Obviously we're not speaking for everyone in these groups but it's an interesting discussion. Take get one person's point of view on some of the key differences totally in this stem. Because matt was an old co worker. Fine and we were just like talking about the podcast. Did he kept saying how he was. Just like baffled by hetero views on sex like he grew up in a super catholic household so he definitely has some theories of his own. About why You know sex culture is the way it is and i was actually listening to the armchair expert that podcast and they had more yet. Had emily morris. Who's like a really renowned sex with emily and she was went into like it was all basically how saxes like literally the one thing in the us culture that we just do not talk about it's like so shameful it so like shamed britain for whatever reason even twenty twenty one. There's still a huge stigma about talking about sex in predominantly straight culture in engage culture. There's just very different views on sex so we thought it'd be a good topic to kind of explore the dichotomy between the two. You know when you travel. I always hear this. When i'm in europe All the men always say like american women are the most promiscuous they always. They always say that right but then they come to the us. I've had multiple guy friends. Tell me they moved to the us. And then they start dating girls in americans. And they're like they're so prude. There is nothing like they are when they're abroad. So there is a disconnect because we are kind of prude in this culture but when we go abroad we kind of just let let it all go and we are a lot more sexually free that way so i do think there is something that we're not exploring here and i'm glad that we're having this very open sexual discussion yet or even for not prove because i don't think that like everyone is prude. Like you know like speaking for myself but speak for other people. But i think it's. There's still this weirdness about talking about sex like what happens behind. Closed doors happens behind closed door and it's almost like if you feel like you are open about sex. You still feel like a little bit of a shame. Like i think about even when we do sex related topics that episodes of like. Oh my god. What if like a coworker heard this. I still have that thought. Go in my mind. Even though i think of myself as a pretty sex positive person. There's still like this like scared. Feeling that someone's going to look down on you if they think that like you're single and you have saxon like you know there's it's weird well in terms of like the guy friends i have. Who have you moved to the. Us from other parts of the world. They say it's like the rules that we have around sex in the whole. Oh if i sleep with this person a first date than they won't take me seriously and they just find that mind boggling. 'cause they're like in my country you just have to have sex and then you don't you can expect a relationship where you don't where you that's how you start a relationship so the way we view sex as as a way of like a power exchange is very different than other parts of the world and that's exactly what we dive into in this episode like all these like different rules or things that we have been conditioned to believe all this time in some of them matt definitely was like.

00:05:18 - 00:10:05

Okay i feel this enga- culture too and others. He was just like wait what he was like. Totally blown away. So we'll let you all here the episode to hear all the different ones and what he thought about all of them again. It's one game. Aunts perspective speaking for all gay men in but there are definitely some things that we recognize of just having two men verses like a a female male dynamic right like out of default and this could be also very different if we talked to two women in lesbian relationships. One thing though. I think that was super interesting that we did fully get to go through because there was just honestly so much to unpack in this episode. But we start. He touched on it a little just about like testing with sex. And we've talked about this a bit lake in our facebook group and just on the podcast that instruct culture like asking someone for like an s. t. d. test is kind of like you wouldn't do it right but then like with testing culture changing cove ed and people like asking for covid tests like how will that change in the future in straight culture but enga- culture like doing tasks doing proper talking about like std's or s t is head of time. It's just kind of run of course like it's not a big deal whatsoever but they also did go through the aids. Hiv epidemic right. So i wonder if after covid this will actually start to trickle a lot more industry culture. I sure hope. So because a why have we been doing this whole russian roulette of sti as for so long and not knowing how you got something or who gave it to you and then you just let that person keep trading with other people it just. It's not the right way to do it. And it's not safe and no matter how how much we can say awkward and ruins. The moment is in your health and safety a priority. All of this as well. So i do hope that the testing culture does change for for heterosexual. So this might be tia by but have you ever had so you love when it starts that way you ever had to have the conversation with a partner and tell them that you ended. Std basically tell them to get tested. Because i have it. It's super funky awkward. Well tell us about it ever gonna go. Tmi let's let go it was just like those basically. Like i learned that i had td. That was obviously curable. So it wasn't the end of the world but like i basically had to reach out to pass partners of mine and it was at a stage that i didn't have that many partners like there was one guy was by. I've mentioned have other podcasts. Toxic friends with benefits so is basically like my current boyfriend realized a he had aero. I'd really get into the whole thing but like well. I'm not going to get into the whole piece of like how i found out but anyways basically came out that like it probably was from buy side in there was really one person before by current. So it wasn't like i had to go through like a holistic people like it could have been a lot worse. I think about that sex. The city episode where barada caused like every last said talk you about climate. Yeah so it wasn't like that. But i was not exactly on good terms but this friends with benefits because we were like good friends and it really just went downhill and i member like message came on facebook because i deleted his number. Because i was like. Oh can we like chat on the phone for a few minutes. I wanna ask you something or like bring stuff up. I didn't want to like say what it was through. Facebook messenger right was like oh can you just type it here like basically like did it wanna talk to me. And i'm like no like i don't want to talk to you any more than you. Don't wanna talk to be select. Could you trust me that this is gonna be like a five minute call anyways. He basically like oh. I don't think this came for me. And then like. I never heard from him. After some like italy came from him. It was just a very uncomfortable conversation with especially with someone that you didn't really wanna talk to anymore. I had hit him up. But i certainly surely as hell would put that on facebook messenger of what i needed to say. That's for damn sure. I felt like i had a very similar experience. I had hpv like everybody else in college. And when i found out. I told the guy that the the only person i slept with that entire semester and he was like it's not for me like what else could it be no. Why is that the good to respond to it. Like you to feel like you're dirty that you had it and it's like first of all i mean std's happens. I don't want to say anyone's dirty for heavy at s td. But that's how i felt. I guess is a better way to say it like the his reaction was so like. Well why would you think this came from me. Because there's no other path is no other and we didn't use protection.

00:10:05 - 00:15:01

Think about dumps. So yeah but i think there is this and this actually kind of goes into kovin but like in straight culture. I definitely feel like a much better about this. Dow but like there was a sense of trust that i have with this friends with benefits. We were not exclusive yet. We were friends so i was like no. I totally don't need to be like us protection. He's fine i'm fine. I know him. I kind of feel like that's like move it down. It's like oh they're our friend they don't have covid. I don't need to wear a bass but that is like a false sense of security. There's really nothing different between your friend versus some rando on tinder. Nothing absolutely nothing and people will say whatever they want to make you feel comfortable and maybe sometimes they actually think that's the truth to because they have been tested they just assume so. It's just one of those like really awkward conversations. I mean i remember. When i was dating i would just be like. Hey we're not gonna use protection. Just wanna make sure that we're only sleet each other right. And of course like yeah. Of course i mean who knows. I can't verify that. I do want to say this fred's benefits that i bring up. He did reach out recently when the new york times article cable. Oh it's like holly turn later. I was like this is like a good five years. no more. it's been like eight years. You know it was. It was a nice message. I'd like you don't know how much material you've given on the podcast shade so much. You are so influential as the mistake. I would never do ever again. That i learned so much from so thank you. Thank you next. Expect that conversation to go that way. I love it blessed. Let's bring it back to something that's not so. Tmi we just had the most exciting interesting Amazing virtual event the most dateable competition. It was our rendition of a virtual co ed pageant per se ed. We had six contestants. Three judges one night a happened last week. It was probably the most fun. I had a really long time. I looked forward tonight. Yulia and i both dressed up in sparkles. The judges dressed up. The contestants had wardrobe changes. It was one of those nights that i felt like it was an award ceremony. It was so fun it really was. I bet you a gags. I think you really did pull a lot of weight this. Because i think this is like this is what lights you up. I could definitely see of the things we do. You love love love shit like this. I'm so glad we were able to do it. And you did. Such a great job bandaging. All of the contested said judges. And all that and i was blown away by the contestants like off. You had a little more insight. You've been primarily the one talking to them but like i just did not. I don't know this stuff can be amateur hour. Sometimes like i knew they were obviously vetted like. We got hundreds of submissions. We had people look at them like there was clearly like a reason why these people were picked but i still was a little skeptical of like what the talent would actually look like but i was seriously blown away by all of the dancing but comedy like singing like it was out of control. In addition to the glitz and glamour was also about vulnerability. I feel like all of our contestants are as some sort of crossroads in their life and they were so honest and open with what they're going through and the personal development stuff that they were working on. It was very humbling for us to see here. I think the judges were blown away to they messages after was like we did not expect any of this. Oh no it did. And i wanna shout out our judges we had may lee measham iraq and dr abigail lab who have been crowd favorites on dateable. Probably remember may lee. She's a former c. n. n. journalist and correspondent. And we had her on the can. You have it all episode. Mutual barak was the art of virtual sacks. He runs like virtual sex parties. More of like you know sex positive communities and dr abigail love is the scheme as expert. Like how you're wired for relationships are top episode of last season. We talk about her all the time. So we had like this like a plus roster of judges and i feel like they all complimented each other and so many different ways. It was just absolutely magic. That happened when we had all three of them giving commentary and everyone has such a different take and commentary. It was just a made the night. So magical for me. And i gotta handed over to everybody who put themselves out there. It was a very courageous thing to do. We had lots of people on this on this.

00:15:01 - 00:20:04

I'm gonna call on this call but it was actually part of the show and the audience. Neither chat was on fire. People were just like what is happening. I did not expect this. So for all six of our contestants. Congratulations put for putting your heart out there and opening yourself up to everyone who was part of this part of the audience. It was a really special night to witness. Yeah we are actually selling the recording for anyone. That missed this. A few of us a few of you have asked. Hey wasn't able to attend in meek thursday night happened. Can i still catch us in the recording. So you can actually get. Tickets in air quotes. Sustainable podcasts dot com slash events it will be at a discounted price because obviously the live component is removed. But honestly i'm going to rewatch it. One of our community members caitlyn. She mentioned like it's a great data activity like us along the past and like one of our other community members shelby. Like she mentioned like she's like this is the live event. We've all been craving the last year in like it was so clear like how much we missed like comedy live music dance productions like you know but also with heart like it wasn't just like a like a talat rundown like there was just so much dynamic to it that was it was just so much i'm going to well. I wanna do a screening of it you know. Invite a few people virtually and watch it again and over again really. It was just such a fun night. So i can't wait for any of you. Who missed it to to watch it or anyone of you. Who wants to relive that night. Because i certainly do. Should we reveal. The winner should wait till next week to reveal the winner. The part of the community already know. Congratulations to brian. Clark or should we say ten for a joint effort. You'll know what we mean. If you watched the show a he he won he. Mr ryan clark is most dateable. Twenty twenty one. He really surprised us with his vulnerability. And you know for that first round it was all about showcasing while you're dateable and julie. I wouldn't even know what i would do. I might you know like that is like a really hard task. We gave them and all six of them interpreted it so differently. Brian his heart out there and told this very heart warming story. That made us cry. We were julie. And i were crying within minutes. Show like my back. I did make up for once in my care. It was just so touching to hear his journey and his talent. Competition was hilarious. Oh my god and the qna. He does such an awesome job with the cuban. A and i just. I just love ryan. I love all six contestants. And i'm so happy for all of them to be part of this and again a big congratulations to brian for winning this title. Yeah we gotta get bryant of the show. He was phenomenal phenomenal. He's so great. He's so great. And what's so wonderful is that we have such a strong sounding board community presence in this during this event. And that's why we love the sounding board. And i guess we can go into announcements now and this is really something we talk about every week. A sounding board is an extension of our facebook community so it is a community. We offer premium content as well as interactions. Why it's been so worth it to be along for the ride because everyone's very close knit community. We are not just basic where we go deep into the whys of people's behavior we are each other sounding board. We are each other's guida through everything that we're going through right now especially with covert and dating. It's just been such a wonderful community to be part of so. If you are interested in joining you can find out. More information at dateable. Podcasts dot com slash sounding board and As part of the community we also have a book club and this month's book club were featuring our very own logan yuri her bestseller book. It's called how not to die alone if you want to get in on the action. Join the soundboard dateable. Podcasts dot com slash sounding board. Yeah this could be a special on because normally in our book clubs we don't have the authors there but logan offer to come because she did the episode with us last week and she's a huge member of the dateable fan but we do have. Our monthly fireside chats with gas in. Logan was one before. But this'll be a very special event. But i do wanna read one quote that i got that shield e one of our members vestige After the that was just like this event was amazing. I enjoyed myself so much but then it got sentimental. And i was like you know. I'm reading this online. She's like okay so she basically said like your podcast has literally changed my life. I have a family and family. She means the sounding board family actual family but she had that before the that.

00:20:04 - 00:25:07

She's like a great boyfriend. And yes that happened naturally but you influence me to open my heart in mind to new people. I started listing around season. Six in its wild that we're on season twelve so much growth law we love you shield e and also you know we are the ones who put the information out there. But you're also the one receiving and you have to be open to receiving this information. Some people are not at a point in their life to receive this yet. And that's perfectly okay but that's why we love sounding board because it's a group of people who are at the exact same phase in their lives to receive this and to grow with this information so we appreciate all of you so much when we love you shield be we really really do. You are awesome okay. Is that enough for our announcement. Yeah just one very last thing. There's a little confusion just want to clarify. We do have the general public facebook group which is love in the time of corona and then the sounding board which you just mentioned so anyone can join love in the time occur now. I should say anyone as long as you're a listener as long as you fill out the flake the quick question here. We're trying to like not. Have it be like total internet rondos. But you get what i mean. It is a free group to join as long as you tell us. A little about yourself will admit you in in that group. It's like the basic stuff that happens with facebook groups there's post solid the people can ask questions are moderator. Janice does recaps of the episodes i. It's a really great community. People love the time love in the time a corona in itself but the sounding board is kind of like where the true magic happens. That's where the happy hours are podcast. Discussion groups that's where people like chat via video. That's when like the real friendships start to form. But also there's the ability to go to the events that we have liked the most dateable. It won't be that that that was kind of like our flagship big event for the year. But we will. We do have our every month. We have workshops or fireside chats with past dateable guests. So that's all within the sounding board fabulous alright while we really like to thank our sponsor better help for making this episode happen for the new year. What are some things that you like to change in your life to find more happiness. What do you think is preventing you from achieving your goals weaving. The simple answer is prioritizing your mental health. We dateable are huge fans of therapy and better help can match you with your own licensed therapists and connect you in a safe and private online environment. So i was able to start communicating with my therapist and less than forty eight hours super fast. They're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. And it's more affordable than traditional cooling. They're licensed professionals specialize in everything from stress. New year's resolutions executive brahma depression and grief. You name it. They will help you through it for the new year. We wish for all of you to live a happier life. That's why it's a listener. You'll get ten percent off your first month by visiting our sponsor at a better help dot com slash dateable join over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health again. That's better help. H. e. l. p. dot com slash dat e. a. b. l. e. And we have another message. That's from our podcast network called frolic network. We love to feature some new podcast for you all to listen to that. We've really enjoyed this one this week. We wanna feature is t and strummed pits. Tune into here to. France discuss all the steamy details of the regency romance genre. So what is the regency romance johner. I had to look this up julie. It's a sub genre of romance novels. Set during the period of the british regency or the early nineteenth century now traditional regencies feature a great deal of intelligent fast pace dialogue between the protagonist and very little explicit. Sex or discussion of sex Interesting so join them each episode as they take a trip across the pond and into the past in search of swoon worthy happily ever after they talk about all your regency favorites like julia quince bertans. Plus they dived deep into exciting new releases. The tea and trumpets podcasts. Also features full book reviews and fabulous interviews with bestselling authors in the john. Wrote like you can find them on the frolic network or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Awesome so shall we get into it with matt now. Let's do it so we often talk about how we all view sexuality a little bit differently. We view sexwale differently. But we've noticed. Her dress iq differences between the way we view saxon hetero views on sex and gave us on sex and our guest. Today is here to represent one voice of that. But it's a very interesting discussion to basically flip your perspective on sex and see what other people are thinking so we have matthew buyer.

00:25:07 - 00:30:05

He is in his late thirties. She lives in san francisco. He's been there for seven years. Originally from duluth minnesota. Oh i didn't know there was a duluth minnesota. He's currently in an open relationship. A novelist screenwriter. Has a book called the breeders. All about a dystopia world win. The gays have taken over genetic engineering and in my eyes. It just means the gays have taken over the norm of the site. That could possibly look like hello matthew aloneness to meet you. Hello yes so bad. I know each other for we were friends. And this whole catechism about. Because i was talking about the podcast and i was kinda sharing like the scandalous stories that we've talked about and you're like wait. You know like i just like casual six-way the other day like like like why don't we. I remember you like. I'm fascinated by just like what's deep down rooted in sacks for hetero folks so we were like we should do it episode where we talk about just like how you view things how we've seen things in like again. It's one person's opinion. We're not going to say that you represent all gay man but we also have pulled our community too so we've got it a few other voices tooth for castrate folks and for gay folks. So i think it's a really interesting convo. Like azrair poli our community. A copy of it works that do this recording jack. It'll be interesting. And yeah. I just wanna say you know i again. Just one person the gay community But i did come from the midwest to san francisco where it's an entirely different world. So i've kind of seen both sides of it and also a ton of different types of people so not everyone likes to be as in relationships or in discussions. As i do but i kind of think this topic is very important because i think people shove it under the rug so much. But they're still doing all these things are having these thoughts secretly and then they don't admit twitter ashamed of it and i'm kind of fascinated by the creation of that culture where it comes from. Is it religious. You know created by religious culture or all of the above. So it's a topic. I'm very interested in. That's a really hefty the topic for sure. I wanna bring us back to and we can all share sort of like windy. Ju i come to realize sexuality was. Because i was a horny kid but i didn't tie ups hachi myself i love my legs and like that feels good but i didn't call a sex. Basically in middle school is when. I tied it altogether by reading. A book called duo ver- where this it's a book written for tweens about how this girl goes on this sexual exploration where she's touching herself and then her classmates have touched her with consent and how pleasurable i was and i remember reading that like oh was a porno. That was like a for me back in the day. And i will read. It and i would fantasize about all the different scenes that she's talking about. So that's when i connected the dots love to hear from both of you. Wendy do i connect the dots. Yeah i mean. I can go first few on. I would say when i was eleven and the internet happened. That's when i officially connected the dots started learning about it in school and everything i think it was before fifth grade and then when i was in fifth grade we did the quote quote family life unit and this is in catholic school so it was very much. God doesn't want you to masturbate. Sex's only for marriage so it was very much rooted in the catholic point of view. So i of course was very ashamed of it but i did want to comment. When i was very young i used to watch wrestling like really like the mostly dudes. But i didn't know why i was just saying you know. I had no idea what that was. But i think combining that with the kind of shame associated with growing a catholic with that interview. But i in my adult life kind of look back on that and you know everything salts guilty wrong had been a healthier culture in my opinion of saying no this is okay like europe person and everyone goes through this that would have been a very positive experience and i think a lot of at least gay kids coming out today. I know if few in the bay area who have a much easier time of it Because it's okay and that's that's just how people are so. It's a kind of different different experience than what i had. But we know this but did you have any sexual experiences with women or was like you're with a virgin. Just just never hooked up with an asian girl because that's the key. No i had one girlfriend. She's a wonderful human. Being and looking back. I still just bad that i wasn't proven enough to come out in high school but we only kissed once no super awkward like not.

00:30:07 - 00:35:02

She's wonderful but my brother's friends were like. Why are you kissing her. Why don't you kiss. Why don't you kiss her. And it was a whole year of that and it was just the whole time and that was just you know it's by my prom. Date was came out later in life. Like i like definitely a similar situation. Like why. aren't you making moves that like as like a young person you're like why aren't they making this. And then later on. I learned that he came out of like. Oh that makes a lot more now for me. I'm like honestly. My memory is so shot from younger life. I was like talking about the day. Just don't remember shit. But i grew up. I don't i honestly can't re like you asked. When's the first time. I connected the dots. And i have no idea but i do know that like i grew up in a very conservative socially conservative household. But we never talked about sex like i was told the stork brought me for years and it was never like a sex as like a pleasure thing i just remember. Sex is bad for sex. Ed and i think it took honestly it took me to like college to like really understand that this was like a thing like i just i was just living under a rock for like most of my early adult life. Not adult life teen life. Were you aware of it. And then that other people were doing it or was it. Well actually i was definitely aware of it. I was this is hilarious. My family used to like steel cable and we would like be watching a movie and then all of a sudden like toward which one of those cable boxes. So i was aware of it. My parents cover your eyes. You know anyways. I don't know if i was like teradata more confused at horrified at the bogut of it coming through movie that i was a little bit of love and curious for you to win. Did you realize there was a difference between hetero sex and gay sex because to me. It was all the same up until i think college. I just felt like it was anatomy touching anatomy. And i didn't think there was a difference in like your choice of sexuality interesting. Yeah julie go in that. I would love to hear your thoughts back but i think i'll just like really quick totally honestly. I didn't really think that much of it. I think like also the generation. We grew up like the conservative place. I was in. I wasn't exposed to it that much. So i don't know i mean my prom. Date was closeted the whole time. So it's like. I don't think that was really out in the open so honestly i just didn't think about it all to speak transparent with that. Yeah i definitely did. I okay so i grew up with you know my my parents are lovely people. They're very catholic. They were like the sex teacher and ccd which is a catholic thing and so my mom was the one who did all like sex talks and like its origins lie. So my friends still talk about that. But they love my mom and she's a great person But so we kinda grew up where people who dated when they were a quote quote while they were kids like to them. They were going out. You know like six seventh grade. We had this kind of terror instilled in us of like how bad that was because it could lead to sachs which could lead to unwanted pregnancies and since abortion is super wrong. That's terrible and so i. They would argue that. That's not what they meant to instill in us. And i totally give him that. But we were aware of sex and the what could happen with sex. So i would say when i was eleven is kind of one. Yahoo dot com happened and that was a search engine and i was awakened. I i love that. You're like explaining to people what yahoo dot com says that work there for many years. That was the first search engine where i was searching things. I shouldn't have been at that age. Glad yahoo could have done that for. Yes honestly. i credit the internet with me discovering who i was which is actually a serious thing because i had no role model so i had no. Nobody do show me what was how k or what was you know even normal 'cause there was no normal for me. I was searching what i thought. I should be searching. And then i saw the dudes and i was like interesting and you know i had always like looking at dudes but i didn't know what it meant up until then roughly given that we were very aware in my family of saxon. What manton marriage and babies the kind of catholic approach. I remember being eleven or twelve and just terrified of what my life would look like as a gay person because in my head what other option was there than having wife and kids and what would life be. It would be this empty sad thing.

00:35:02 - 00:40:02

Where i just was in my mid twenties drifting toward death or whatever you know like i didn't see it as an opportunity whereas now i'm very very thankful for the lack of social structure that provided which allowed me and it kind of is in line with my personality to explore who i was and that doesn't mean i don't measure myself against social norms sometimes and i sometimes fall into that trap but it's been a really positive thing but back then yeah. It was absolutely terrifying for me. I can't blame it on midwest as a whole but it's the called for just very very different. I mean honestly. It's so much more mainstream now right like yes like with the internet like but i do think the midwest is slightly less progressive than say like san francisco. She's always been kind of like the mecca right. Yeah and it reaches the midwest. I'd say five to ten years in right and that's my experience comparing it. Since i moved here i mean even like in straight world we see that right like paulie every and stuff. That's you know that you're just like whatever their normal san francisco at least it's more progressive than the midwest for sure. But i guess like it your book that you talked about. I've ever you're telling me about the book and you're like there's just a scene where like gay people are having sex like at bus stops just like everywhere and curious like what are kind of your main perceptions of the difference between gay sex in. Heterosexuals mechanics aside. I would say. I'm in the book when i talked about that as kind of a satire and it was inspired by the national organization for marriages ad campaign equating. Gay marriage to this coming storm. So i was writing that book with the intent of poking prodding. So i was like. What's the worst thing that could happen. And i'd be like public sex at the bus stops and you know and it would be a normal thing that everyone would see so. That's where that came from. But that said it's definitely removed from reality in the sense that that's a crime and prison. And you know. But you go to san francisco folsom street fair which i've actually never been to. But i was bent to the the before party thing the leather star which isn't usually my thing but the party was really fun. Anyway you see people doing roughly the same thing and it's totally fine and san francisco. I would say it's kind of normal people wouldn't bat an eye lashes much. Think at that sort of thing now. People are just like walking naked on the fine. And why is that a shame i. It's not exposing has peanuts. Yes i do. Remember when i first moved here. I was like what is going on and honestly it does usually tend to be gay. Men like not to generalize but it does so leitch. Yeah i agree. And i think i can only speak for my own perception of that phenomenon. A lot of us spent are much of our lives being in the closet or not being able to express ourselves or something and this is kind of san francisco rather as a safe haven. I would save for gay people. And and there is a reason my aunts when i was twelve years old was making fun of gay people out in san francisco and it was known even in the midwest san francisco where people went to and they were all gay and it was. People said that to be what i moved from boston. They're gonna become a lesbian. Like like no at twenty five just to decide because i like what the fuck because people just i never thought about san francisco being a haven for lesbians. It was editor a combat in the world. Probably gonna make many tonight. So we'll try not to. Yeah i think regarding the the fact that there's like public sex. And the gay thing. I i think i can only link to the that people feel safe being a little more out and out there here versus elsewhere. Maybe and also i think there's the element of gay people have to come out and tell people and say. Hey look this is my sexuality. In a way that straight people don't because it's kind of understood. I think right so i think the experience of being gay and having to not just wear it on your sleeve outwardly every day but half to announce it because other people will just otherwise assume near straight or make rash judgements that you're gay even if you might not be you know 'cause mannerisms or all these things that they think represent gay yeah. We've a few scenarios that we at least we've we feel are their shifts. There's differences between perception. Between and gay folks will cut run through these different scenarios. But would love your take on them as obviously again single like one person.

00:40:02 - 00:45:01

We're not saying that you represent gay folks overall like just your experienced yourself and then also with all the people in your life that you've observed too so i guess i'll kick off the first one. I think there is something. That's really interesting with Hetero sackler views on sex. There's like this exchange for power essentially that like women don't wanna sleep with men too early because then they'll lose interest like men also the we've talked to people in our community to that they were saying like i don't wanna feel like manipulated by a woman two she's like holding out so there's a lot of weird power dynamics that play into saks opposed to people just like enjoying their physical time together. Like do you ever see this in like gay culture. Oh i want to say and again. This is just me but i've kind of foreign concept to me. I'm just thinking here if i've ever experienced anything like that. I think it tends to be more like a handshake. And then you get to know each other so you hook up first and then get to know each other and i could see maybe In a relationship. It's not really a power play but there is like yes and now dynamics. Like if you're not in the mood or something and you can say no and i actually think in my experience in the gay community and relationships. It's kind of. It is hyper sexualize in a lot of ways that that's sort of standard that i think people both embraced and sometimes measure themselves against or just you know it's expected to just have sex or whatever i'm again not for everybody but in terms of using that as a are using sex as a power play thing that to me is unless you're fetishizes power play and that's totally different right. I've had this conversation extensively with some of my gay besties in new york who said we've always observed that a lot of their relationships. I've seen throughout the years stem from sex. Sex is what kicked off their relationship. But a lot of hetero relationship especially mine. I hold off sex to have a relationship and i remember like going on a date with this guy once and then i. My gay best friend came and met up with me after he's like. Did you see that deck. And i was like no barely saw his. It'll just dark. See the you didn't see the dick on text permai. Why did you even go on the day and then holding out for sex with really liked him. I really wanna get to know him and he was like girl. I just don't understand like what if his dick is disgusting. It's what if it's small. What if he's what if he smells like. Don't you want to know on date number zero before you even go on a date and it was a super valid point and it made me of think like why do i feel like holding out for sex would make the guy like me more but i guess in your experience. Have you ever done any sort of game playing non fetishizes game playing to make someone like you more or like you back. I like how you profit shush. I think. I don't not consciously. But i think my insecurities as a person i can be very self deprecating so i would say well i do try to be very sincere in my profiles or whatever because that is something. I'm attracted to another person sincerity and not playing the game. I don't like when people are not genuine with me. And i can usually sense that pretty quickly so i would say maybe subconsciously. I've tried to present myself in the best light i can. Y'all have yeah. Yeah and i think that's a normal human thing but again i don't really relate i don't think off the top of my head. I don't really relate to that concept. Let's take a quick break. And we'll get right back into matt Us let's take it away with a couple of our sponsors. Here's a special message from our sponsor. Gobble do you remember at the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was like super pumped about cooking and sharing their food photos right. Remember that and like a million months later. No one's posting their food photos anymore. Because we're all so frigging sick of cooking. I know at least for me. I just need variety and meals. And i can't accomplish that by just cooking on my own. That is why go is the perfect meal delivery solution because you can whip up delicious and healthy meals in fifteen minutes or less. Gobble listen army of sous chefs that do the time consuming work for you. And we just try them so glazed seven and was divine. Everything comes with pre portioned fresh ingredients such as already chop veggies spice blends in perfectly summer sauces. Just pick meals from gobbles extensive menu each week including a variety of flavors classic dishes global recipes and delicious vegetarian options plus a line of lean and clean recipes featuring low calorie and low carb options. And by the way they also have breakfast and desserts. Yeah that's right. See what a difference. Gobble will make for your household. They're offering our listeners.

00:45:01 - 00:50:01

This fantastic limited time deal for six meals for just thirty. Six dollars plus free shipping. That's dinner for two people for three nights all for just thirty six bucks. An offer only available through gobble dot com slash. Dateable get a special offer. Now by going to gobble dot com slash dat. Abc for six meals. Thirty six bucks so. I thought this was interesting. That lake one of our community members. Amy believes she identifies as bisexual so she was making a comment. How there's a lot of play books recipes for like women and heterosexual relationship but in her leg same sex relationships that doesn't exist as much like you've any thoughts on just like i mean i guess it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier like this. No rules mentality like. Do you have any thoughts of like how that would play into this whole like game playing mentality that we're talking about again. I am not a gamer in this sense at all like it's super an attractive to me but i would say yeah it does get back to the fact like for me that there. There were no rules to go by. I just had like gay dot com and then grind her which that actually was a website back in the day when i was and it was you know there was no play bart of any sorts. I think it was a lot of self discovery. And you know. I think there's some measuring oneself against what you see and what other people are doing and i am. I gonna fit in or not. Like i feel like i don't fit in a lotta the time in general not just with us but i think general personality is an individual insecurities can play to this The concept of a playbook is that like pickup lines or like how to bag. A guy like what's winning like growing up. I think women and men in st louis end. Not just women but lakewood. There was cosmopolitan magazine. That would just have all these rules and games that you had to play by then. There were like books like why men marry bitches like terrible things the rules and then like men with get it from. I'm like maxim magazine cheeky. You in all that stuff. So there was just howard. Stern like there was a lot of like game playing in like tactics. That were well-known people felt they had to abide by which brings it to why like women kind of feel like there's like this coveted prize of sacks where it doesn't sound like that exists as much in gay culture. Do you think that that has anything to do I don't not necessarily misogyny awake. Yes i do think it has to do with in my head. I'm trying to articulate lake. The prize at the end of the day is to like fuck a woman. And then you you've won you know that's like yeah that's what we're all going for dudes or whatever. That's my interpretation street. Sounds like i wanna to say it seems like that's where some of that comes from at least in my point of view. Is that a thing that you guys think or is it just yet. I mean i think some of it too is like women have been taught to along the way. So i mean i think there's an interesting dynamic. Were obviously talked me about your perspective. As a gay man like lesbian women might have very different perspectives on some of this because there are some of this. That's outside of you know gay straight but just like women men and what we've been taught growing up as women and men so it's interesting that like maybe that dynamic shifts a little when you when you pair two men versus the woman and the man like you have like the historic kind of weak but kind of like this like the feminine stereotypical feminine way like demore more submissive and then the mail being more dominant is at least like the old school misogyny brought up. Yeah and then. There's this other notion of sex related to shame in the hetero culture the day the dating culture I'm just looking at sorry. I had to look up like some of the most popular gay dating apps. And you compare those names to those of hetero apps. You're like holy shit squirt top before it's what's this one surge scratching grinder grinder. They're all very much sex forward. And then if you look at hetero apps mumble bumble what the bumble hinge what is that coffee meets bagel like much more. Pg can you get these names. But they're why is there so much i can't. I'm obviously we can't answer this in the next thirty minutes. There is so shamed.

00:50:01 - 00:55:02

High zacks for hetero dating in gay dating. There doesn't seem to be that shame attached. So have you. I guess my question to you is have you ever felt shame. Attached to to sex and yes. What's your next question. Please expand on that okay Well and if you remember what you're gonna ask. I interrupted you. I was gonna say yes absolutely. I think it took me into my late twenties to remove that shame so i had the general catholic premarital sex shame since i can't get truly married in the catholic church which i'm not part of anymore but back then i knew i could never get married so on top of that being gay. Was this quote quote on natural thing. It's you know it's not unnatural to be gay but the act of gay. Sex is not the catholic charter and you know whatever religion. I don't know it's not something they embrace and so that was kind of a double whammy of shame. So i think as i was exploring and as a teenager was just like the internet porn. Because that's what was there. A my never had the courage to. I don't even know where i would have had sex. Was that edge. There were some people in high school. But i was also suber closeted. So i was trying to deflect at all turns you know so. Yeah the the shame thing. I wanted to touch on the fact that i think coming out again. It's kind of about a. We have to come out so therefore you you have to put this part of yourself forward and there might be some link. I'm can't pretend to be scientific about it. But between that type of shamelessness and purposeful shamelessness to try to be proud of who you are. It's almost like saying no. I'm not going to be ashamed of this. And then as that progresses in culture. So and i'm just kind of thinking through this right now but in culture i think that may have. It's very possible that apart from just putting two guys together where guys are kind of pigs a lot of the time and then you just exponentially increase that There's no real give and take from sexes or whatever may be combined with the fact that we did have to be more open about our sexuality so there are. We're going to fight that. Shame that followed us up through childhood. So there's there's a lot of baggage there at least for me. I'm probably not for kids. Who grew up in a very warm welcoming environment. I hope not for them. And but yeah for me. I think there's baggage attached with that was something to overcome which then kind of opened the doors to not having to feel ashamed because that was no longer part of who i was or wanted to be if that makes any sense. That's so interesting. It's like i mean there's definitely the shame even in straight land right of like growing up thinking sex is bad like i mentioned or what i mentioned like. I thought like the stork brought me right. So it's like this. It has been like this closeted piece in even straight. Were all too but i think at least what we see in. This is interesting. Because i feel like you would think in like twenty twenty one that this wouldn't be thing anymore but like when the woman does sleep with a man too soon there. Is this feeling of shame. Like i did something wrong in that kind of goes back to like those play books and all that stuff we were talking about earlier like do you ever feel that type. Shame or is it more. Just the shame from lake growing up. I would say at the beginning of my adulthood. It's probably it was probably more similar to that. In the sense of this is bad sex. Bad i shouldn't have let myself do that Except at the same time. I was having a great time. I slowly realized you know. Maybe that's okay and i think sorry. Can you repeat your question. Straight people have similar. I think maybe we just took a little longer to get there. Because i've eight. I think obviously sax now is more out in the open than it was even like five ten years ago. But it's still not as out in the open as it is in gay culture. At least that's the perception that i have. Yeah i would. I would agree on that. And in terms in terms of the shame factor. I think is for me. Very intertwined with the internalized homophobia that i grew up with. So i. it's it's hard for me to separate that experience. But i definitely did feel it as i got to realize that. Oh a lot of people are doing this. And oh maybe it's maybe it's okay and oh i just met friends doing this like okay a hook up once and then you see each other again and say oh cool. Let's hang out and you had mentioned this earlier.

00:55:02 - 01:00:02

Like meeting friends through sex. That's been my experience so often. I can barely count like having friends and people. I really care about long-term whether they're just peripheral facebook friends or they actually become close. I'm really close friends with one of my exes. I want to say he was living out east when i was in minnesota and now we're we text almost every day and just one of the best people i know and multiple other friends like that so i think as i witnessed a positive result of sex i was able to slowly detach these shamed. Shame related ideas if that makes sense. That's interesting because i feel like with added i don't hear is that many people like having sex with people and staying friends in Straight world where. It's like definitely one of those things that it's more like you keep it separate. Do you think that has anything to do with being family like i feel like there's a potentially different paradigms that sex's obviously linked to family creation and i. I wonder if maybe that's related to that. Yeah i was going to say. I think it's never the guy that doesn't want to stay friends. It's usually the women who i'm comfortable and you said something earlier that piqued my interest to was the give and take dynamic of I put in the context of heterosexual a lot of women. Speaking for myself here is. I feel like i'm the taker and i'm taking it in and it's like sex almost puts me endanger in some ways because there is a body part put into me and that puts me at risk for tear that puts me a risk for damage That puts me a risk for pregnancy. So there's a lot of risk involved. And i think for me why i attach some shame to sex is that do i let this casual encounter with me at risk in this and it's to me it's biological that this is putting me in danger and i. I chose to be put into this position that brings up an interesting point. I think one of the differences with the casual nature of this. I think one of the differences with the casual nature of sex between guys versus maybe men and women and there is a safety factor to consider. And i think that's that's a huge thing and i think it shouldn't be discounted. You know. I have a little sister. She's not little. She's thirty something in new york sister. She's been had just people on the street. Say things store like make actions and it's stuff women go through all the time which is just horrendous at the same time i say that if you put a bunch of gay guys at a street party. Everyone's checking each other out in like right have a hand on the smaller back or wherever else very quickly so i say it's terrible when it's my sister or a woman so there's a double standard there that i'm actively trying to acknowledge but Yeah i think safety that said it's also thinking gay culture you know i've had situations where i put myself in a situation that i regretted after and they're you know whether you call it assault or you call it an accident or you tell yourself. It wasn't an assault. I've struggled with those things to that. I think women go through a lot more often. There's differences there that have a that need to be acknowledged i think Just because it's just reality if that makes sense let kinda brings us to our next one that we have is that like in. It's taboo to talk about sex in straight culture like if you're on a first day in guy at least as a woman. If a guy was a overtly sexual to you talking about saks you kind of label him as a fuck voyeur like a player or you know just like i say. That is just like cracking up. What we've heard from folks in our community to that are gay that this is just like. It's on like hyper sexual has from the start. Like one of our members ryan was saying. I actually look for those conversations where it's not all about sex because i can have a conversation with this person so i'd love to hear your take on the difference. I think it's hilarious and it was making me. Laugh is like unscripted grinder on the regular. I will get instead of a hello. Or maybe you get just a high and then a dick pic profiles will be you know seven and a half cut girth four inches or whatever you know like bottom or top or hiv negative. It should be positive. I'm on prep. All that stuff is super forward on the apps.

01:00:02 - 01:05:04

Which i think is actually great so that to me it just and so i was thinking straight day. It's like i'm just thinking of a guy would easily. Sometimes we like well. How big are you or what like that would be a conversation topic. I think it's easier to hide that behind app though. Might me say so in person unless you're at a bath house. I think it's probably a little harder to just. At least i'm speaking for myself here. But i have a fear of rejection. Generally as a person. I think a lot of people do so i think in person i tend to be. I walser really quickly and i think it's a fear of rejection thing but yeah i think it's a very different thing in gay land and i think i think it's constructive because it gets it all out of the way very quickly And again you know you hook up you make friends. Maybe have dinner parties together or whatever but i was gonna say regarding your comment about The community member who is saying that he waits for the actual conversations to happen. That's what would happen with my partner. And again i'd said i look for Sincerity and people as a actual human thing that i'm attracted to. That's right human unnecessarily sexual and so you know with my partner. He we had real conversations early and we actually didn't meet until i think four months after we first started talking because there was another guy in between and all that but then we actually did in The moment i realize this is somebody i want to spend. Time with was just second time. We hung out which was a hookup. But it wasn't actually. He's started telling me about his day at work. And so that to me meant a lot and i'll never forget that and it wasn't just about sex so i do think i don't know if we can swing this relation in terms of concept but there are a lot of barriers he can put up with by just having sex and being shallow about it and like. Oh you didn't see his dick size before you one the day. Why would you even do that. like that. totally is a thing. And i've heard so many conversations like that. I do think that is kind of shallow in the sense of and i'm not saying that in a good way i'm just saying like there is more to life than just sex. So as hyper sexualize as can be We're also still people. So i think that's an important thing to realize but i do think i'm a person that also enjoy the freedom of a much more open sexual atmosphere and i think it's much more healthy. Then being ashamed of it and keeping it all hush hush so have you ever heard the phrase fuck like man told to a woman not told to eliminate interesting we are. I mean i think it was on sex in the city and i think it was on. It's been numerous like media and shows and all that stuff and i've been told that by friends is like i think we do a lot of times as women. We do equate sex to emotional connection. It's hard for us to separate the two so to reconcile that we've been told we'll fuck like a man. Just get in. get out and don't think about. It tells you that out of curiosity by other women or men media media idea yeah. I'm not judging. This statement is 'cause obviously works for some people but it's really hard for me to separate the two. Even if i tell me look like a man like i can't just do that. What are your thoughts on. Even this statement you feel. I feel like you're pretty surprised by even a statement like well. It seems kind of to support the patriarchy of way. I don't know of putting it putting it all on the mountains. Man's point of view again in terms of what like the way to do it. Yeah fuck like to me it. It discounts your experience and tells you to put a cap on yourself and that to me is kind of maybe harmful. That's my initial thought. I've never really heard that phrase before so pardon me. If that's a pointless thought that i had all at least what i've experienced before it's like hard for me to have sex with someone until i have that emotional connection okay. Sounds like i mean in gay culture. It's pretty common to meet someone right away. And how sex big coming into my gay culture Yeah i think it's again. It's a way that men can get close to each other but also it's a you breakthough ice right away. I think. I think being a guy like this is my experience. You see someone you're into or that you might be into or whatever and there's suddenly sexual tension and you might be imagining it in your head best to get that out of the way so you can actually get to know somebody. That's kind of like you know we can debate whether that's healthy or not. But i think in my experience is because it removes this you know. I think there is a lot of this might be a carryover from straight culture or religious culture.

01:05:04 - 01:10:03

I'm not sure but you know putting a lot of emphasis on sex. So we're if we're talking about relationships the reality tends to be you get busy you get. You know it's been four years or however lying and it's like sex isn't the be all end all of life and oddly. My parents always like talked about that in a positive light. I think of like sex. Isn't you know over. Focus on sex can be harmful and stuff like that. And i actually. I see their point at the same time with catholicism up where there was an over focus on sex in a negative light so it was kind of interesting that that like sex in a healthy way was not over focused on. I was almost the opposite. Yeah i think another thing that's been out there to. I mean i guess like in a long term relationship right like do you find. Because i think there is miss. I'm not saying this is true for straight people either. But there's a myth like once you've been married don't have a sex life anymore and it all like kind of shed and like i know in gay culture even like open. Relationships are a lot more common than in straight culture like. Do you feel like you turn to open relationships because like term sex fizzles out or is it. More just culturally. It's something that you do. I can only speak for myself on this. Because i know a lot of people who don't subscribe to that model so i've always known about myself. Well always known. Since my late twenties. That i would be like a caged up being a close relationship and i don't want and i don't think for me it's natural so you could argue that. It's not natural for many people because they're always looking or they're cheating or they're getting divorced or whatever. It's something i always kinda wanted to. You know in my thirties be true to about south so i think it's definitely common. I don't know many gay couples who are closed at least here in san francisco and even i would say in minneapolis where i lived before. Most couples were open. That i knew are closed and cheating on each other. That happen quite a bit. I once accidentally hooked up with two members of the same couple at times into it. And then i found out later that they were together and i was. I felt bad. Because i was like. Oh you guys were lying to each other. I didn't know that was legit. You know so. We didn't talk about it but it was just me processing like oh you know so. There are things like i think. There's a vast spectrum of experience in the gay community but with most people i know open relationship is kind of a standard And it does. I think free up the you know the relationship like you're going to have been flow your sexuality with your partner people change and something about i think julie in the past is like the trust that can be built with an open. Relationship is an entirely different type of trust that a close relationship can build not better or worse. But i think different if you know that your partners out hanging out with some dude or some friend that they hook up regularly. But you know that your partner's coming home to you and by you really are a team together. That's pretty powerful to me and it's it does go back to what i said about what we are discussing about sex not being the be all end all of our relationship and so me it's become it's important for me to have an open relationship because i know myself. I don't want to disappoint somebody. Worse than i already might as a person and i like to try to be honest about that and it it by removing the catastrophic nature of quote quote cheating. Because you're not really cheating if it's an agreed dynamic. There's no like instant break-up when someone has sex with somebody else and if you know in a different relationship i'm actually. I was single. But i ended up being the third with somebody my best best friends and all three of us had to sit down and talk because feeling started developing between my friend and my friend in me and the interesting part about that experience was being able to sit down with his partner is also a friend and talk openly about what was happening. And how do we deal with it. And then my friend. And i also had those talks and ultimately we didn't shake anything up. Stay friends and stay close to each other and love will always be there no matter what. And that's something sex really has nothing to do with so as interesting. It started with sex. But it's just a different array of experiences that i've had by not being as traditional as some other people so for me i love it but not for everybody so again. We're not speaking for huge populations here. We're only speaking from her own opinion experiences but i think there is a lot that the hetero culture can learn from the gay culture as well. So maybe we can kick off some takeaways of what we've learned from this conversation i think a major takeaway for me is.

01:10:03 - 01:15:02

I have always tied sex to shame. And i need to get to the root of why that is and i think you bring up this point of like. Look at your upbringing. Look at your family. What what were the messages that were given to you. How did they explain how you got to this world and i remember my parents just sat me down in front of a tv. Was like watch this vhs vhs at that point and it was about the birds and the bees and they never wanted to talk about it again. Just like yep. That's it. I never wanna talk and so to me. It was like this. It was like this door that they never wanted to open. So when i did open the door. I was like damn. I'm so behind. i need to turn so much more. A lot of street. people are having. That sort of epiphany is like i see the door. Open it just a little bit but what is fully behind it. Lemme really discover what that is yet and it's interesting you bring that up. I was at a wedding in minnesota one of my friends in one of the guests. Of course. I didn't know her and we got talking and we started talking about sex and opener relationships and so what does that say. I'm not sure but she was saying kind of similarly like her and she's married. I think she was saying she thinks a lot of straight people want to have these conversations about open relationships and what that would mean but a lot of people are afraid of what it means and again. I'm just quoting her. But i think it was very interesting for me to hear that it kind of reminded me of me growing up as a kid being terrified of what it would mean to be gay and have that whole different life that i couldn't even envision because i was so scared and it kind of a similar field to that So i thought that was really interesting. Kind of aligned. With what you're saying so that actually kind of goes into my takeaway. As i feel like i mean part of why i think even in straight culture in san francisco there is more openness poly-amorous there is more openness with open relationships in sachs's a whole as in other parts of the world and country and i think some of it stems because gay culture was so prominent here right. I think there is like an element that almost feel like gays are in the future. Like you're right. I'd give it was fair. Just care but like you said a really good point. It's like why did we up this over emphasis on. Why sex is bad but not why sex is good. And i think what i've learned from this conversation. Is that shame in all the like downside of sex shows up differently for different people in again like i. We're not generalizing august. You're all straight people based off through ar experiences but even just looking at the three of us like we all experienced it in different ways but it was the same emotions that played in at the end of the day. And i think that part is really fascinating to me that there is so much. That's different about how the culture is operate. But then there's also so much that similar like you brought up this point like at the end of the day we're all human and we're looking for connection and while some people's views on sex might be more like i think even some of it is the dynamic of genders to as straight folks certain people don't view sacks as a big deal like we had a pass gas jared free that was saying like how do i say that sex is like taking a shower. Where sex to like. You might be like this like the all and end all in the start of a glorious relationship. And i think the reality is like everyone just views sex differently in like maybe there are more overarching themes in different cultures but also straight folks are the majority to it isn't a marginalized groups that you're already gonna get various opinions yet within that as a whole to and i think we are a lot of times with these like stereotypes clinging to the past and i'm hopeful gay culture is helping us into more. Just you know. Do it works for you type of mode. Yeah a totally. And it's interesting everything you just said you know if i have a takeaway. It's that were all in this same boat in different ways so as as different as can be as you said the emotions were all kind of the same and as different as gay culture can be worse still people just like everybody else and straight people are you know in the same boat have the same freedom to explore and it just might not be built into the culture but i you know to spectrum of experience if he will and i think you know. It's not much different actually. I just think the cultures evolved differently in. You have your stereotypes of all of it. But i think when you get really down to a people are much more similar than we often give them credit for so people might disagree with that but yeah it's very interesting. Here's a wild thought. I just feel like we need to be able to speak about sex more and we don't do that.

01:15:02 - 01:20:02

We get so shy. We get a little bit uncomfortable. And i also think something happened to my boyfriend and i recently where we sword talked about each other sexual history. This is something you don't really talk about in hetero interest on our numbers you talk about. How many people you wanna talk about. What kind of sex. you've had. What kind of sex you liked. But it dawned on me. How would i know if i want to know everything about him. Isn't this a major part of him. That i should also get to know like maybe. He holds some sort of trauma from previous sexual relationships that i don't know about where maybe he likes. Certain things being done to him because it has been done to him in the past. It's another part of my partner. That i should be more open about and learn more about. It was a very uncomfortable discussion but we had mind blowing sex after so to say talk about sex more so interesting. And do you think i was gonna. I had a question. Do you think hearing about other people. Do you have any insecurities related to that on me on my experience. Okay like yeah in my experience. Not you know you're going to have different dynamics with different sexual partners and you can't always recreate it with you know whoever you're with so i have personally experienced like i'm i must be terrible boyfriend of i feel differently about this thing or that and i. I just think it's interesting. Like i was just curious. If you had any negative associations with that discussion or hearing about that. Is that difficult to hear about in a an also might actually open a question to do you guys feel as if you possess each other's sexuality or each other in a way and do you get jealous or how does that because i personally don't really have that experience that often i just love at the end of the interview. Bats like turning the table. I it's a heavy heavy conversation. Because i do associate lot of insecurities with that. I don't want my partner with other people in my mind. we will. We want what we want. What i want is a guy who has had very few sexual experiences by knows what he's doing a bad religion even be and i sometimes. I look at celebrities who are like in these movies having the sex scenes and i think about what their spouse thanks. How can we watch your partner get it on with someone else so it's my own insecurities that challenge the way i view you know possession. I think possessions of it's the key word here super interesting and i. That's actually at the beginning. My relationship with my partner. I was something like i told him. Might have been on a hike or something better. I don't want anybody to own my sexuality it's not for sale and that like Because i would feel caged and but at the same time i'm sure i have insecurities related to. Will he fall in love with some better or you know all those things that's very normal. I'll just speak from my own experience on this. I don't think it's necessarily feeling like someone's sexual -ality like i don't think about it like that. It's more that we've just been taught all these years that lake you're kind of like our one and only by hearing about the past like i remember like my ex would bring up the his past situations and ask about my past. I'm like i just don't want to talk about. I don't wanna hear about it. But i agree with you. It's like why does like it's part of who they are as a person so that's the thing is though is i think some of it i wonder is like is it. The the gender dynamics us like. I wonder like you know you. You don't want your boyfriend doesn't want to hear from this on the podcast. But he felt the same uncomfortable this or absolutely because no. It's like weird you don't want to hear about your partner having pleasure with other with someone else you want to hear that you are the best they've ever been with then the end all be all and that's not the case. I'm sure my partners had many times like mind blowing sex with other people. I just don't want to hear about it. But i should be open to hearing about it because i can learn from those situations and know what turns my partner on so now that we're back to the dateable podcast. That was the new spin off. But i think this whole conversation has been really fascinating. And i'm so glad that we had you come on like we have a lot of gay listeners. We have a lot of people like in the lgbt.

01:20:02 - 01:25:12

Hugh plus community and i think like just hearing more perspectives. From even i think i i really do think all of our straight audiences can be super interested this topic when we put the post up in the group there is already so much commentary and interest. I do think like. I think there's just like you said i think he's a really good point that i'll just take over as the final point is like despite differences like we are more similar than we think in that goes not just for sexual Goes for all the different aspects of humanity but again thank you so much for having me great. Can you give us like tell us where people can find your new books in all the stuff that you have coming out. Oh yeah So amazon and any bookseller. You can order the books And then. I have a book series. Have a third book in the series coming out hopefully end of may so that'll be available and then my websites. Matthew buyer dot com. And now everyone's going to think of a big slap but that's she everyone who knows me knows that so anyway. There's no secrets. keep it open. Only last thought is. I do have the gays to blame for one thing. And which is dick pics. Okay i 'cause you know how this went down. We've always thought about like where the origins of dick pics it was some straight guy trying to get a girl he's sitting with like gay best friend or saudi arabia was like dude. How do i. How do i get her to like. Call me back. How do i get some action. And it's gay friend is like dick pic. I'm totally works. Every time he sends her a dick pic an she probably doesn't respond back but then he told another friend and they just spiraled from there. So i bet that's true right. That's the origins optic pigs and now we. We won't have to do it other episode on that deserves forty five minutes in itself. I agree though. I think what you said of. Just getting loads and loads of dick pics like on grindr like bad like there's just such a negative connotation in straight oil done it does make me wonder where people thought of where awry that would be a good idea. You know steph. Iv de special gay culture. It makes total sense. If that's something that like you were saying you ate. Your friend was like. I need to see that like right. Might as well just go right into the hours of most of a lot of that for your front out but others sleepy due to private albums and stuff you could put that as like. I actually got one once on tinder as primary photo like i was. I wasn't even send it to me. It was just swiping through. I was i mart public transport like but i think he's putting roles since then. This is back in twelve when it first came out. It was bottled after grinder. So yeah this horrifying getting bat especially on bar like eddie conversation with this guy right. It was just his profile hick. Anyway i won't. I won't be offended if you said dick pic after this recording. It was like lovely getting to know you. I been taking the time and again for all of our listeners will really appreciate it if you don't send a the pigs because we actually got one and what we think about it shit. Piazzi is coming back but yeah don't picks do give us a good rating and apple podcasts. Stars goes along way goes away longer than a big dicks and we appreciate it. If you will love to share your stories about your own sexuality your journey into sexuality. Please let us know. We're still looking for guests for the season and the next season so we will always liked to open that conversation you and then last but not least. We're going to wrap this up the way we always do. A little dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Five more podcast. You'll love at frolic dot media slash podcast to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag as an any post with the hashtag. Stay dateable entrust us. We look at all those then head over to our website. Dateable podcasts dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums roseau downloadable for free.

01:25:12 - 01:25:24

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Dateable Podcast
Yue Xu & Julie Krafchick

Is monogamy dead? Are we expecting too much of Tinder? Do Millennials even want to find love? Get all the answers and more with Dateable, an insider’s look into modern dating that the HuffPost calls one of the ‘Top 10 podcasts about love and sex’. Listen in as Yue Xu and Julie Krafchick talk with real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes, and first moves to first loves. Whether you’re looking to DTR or DTF, you’ll have moments of “OMG-that-also-happened-to-me” to “I-never-thought-of-it-that-way-before.” Tune in every Wednesday to challenge the way you date in this crazy Dateable world.