S12E7: Toxic Masculinity

00:00:01 - 00:05:09

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Welcome to another episode of dateable. A show all about modern dating where we dig into the whys of people's behavior as we look at society as a whole and i say that with emphasis because of all the shit that went down in this past week julie. I'm just outraged by everything that's been going on in the news and i still can't believe that we've come full circle back to the starting point of where all this happened at the beginning cova did where there was all that asian discrimination with covid being the kong flu and all that bullshit and look at us a year later. Not only do those do those. Stereotypes and hurtful words still exists but they've now resulted in debts and homicide I think this is just a met a loss for words at where we are in the us right now because you know. I came to the states. When i was eight years old so i was not born here and the year i left was a year of tiananmen square massacre and i was in beijing when this happened. I was in school when we heard gunshots and they took us out of school and i remember being on the school. Bus and seeing people with bloodied faces on the street. Now remember going home to my mom asking her what was happening. She said don't worry we'll be in the us. Soon it'll be safe for us. And i can't believe here. We are feeling extremely unsafe in an oppressed by the racism that some people refuse to acknowledge in this country. Yeah i be what a first start off at say like. I sorry that you're going through this right now. Like all of our asia listeners. Like i think it's incredibly difficult to like. See people you know like be treated this way. I think it is the rhetoric from the start of cova. That has set the scene for this. And i think a lot of people are saying. This shouldn't have been a surprise that this was going to happen. At one of our past guests may lee who is the host of the may. Lee show is at the may leashes. Basically all about like asian americans and lifting asian americans up it. She's been she's been very vocal. Did a incredible interview off news channel. It said like this should not be a surprise. This has been like when you hear the president. Say this type of stuff it does spot outwards and i think it's actually unfortunately to thirty with our episode this week with toxic masculinity unplanned. We actually edited before all this happened but it is a hundred percent toxic masculinity this whole league asia rhetoric like i remember i had male friends that would say like only like to date asian women because there are like small and bendy and submissive and quiet and at the time like i don't even think i realize like how damaging that narrative was like i think like a selfishly i was like oh well that doesn't describe me that is like they're kind of like lucky in a way that they like have all these men like over them like all asian france were like no it is not like that at all like this is not something that eddie of us wanted any way. You don't want men that like view you as weak and i think that's exactly what this happened. They are saying like the motive is unclear but come on. it's obviously race related. But even like the fact that a man would go in and kill like asian women like that means that like he viewed that as like an easy target essentially well the fact that he went to separate places it wasn't just one place and he targeted only asian massage parlors. That already is just so obvious. I don't know you have to be really. You have to be a dumb ass to not see that as as race motivated. But i do also want to point out that these stereotypes i think for years asians have been seen as the model minority. It is the most oppressive stereotype for us. Because whenever we do speak up we are seeing as the you know. The bad person were seen as bossy were seen as bitchy were seen as someone who stepped out of line. Who's not a good asian. In fact the asian community also reprimands other asians for speaking up and if anything this is our time to speak up because if we don't do that now we're just letting these stereotypes and the racism oppress even more. And i know that in the last year i've been speaking up more at work and i do get looks and i do get comments and surprises you know.

00:05:09 - 00:10:07

Why is she speaking up to be like the good worker. The hard worker will fuck that. I have my own opinions. And i came to the us. Because of this freedom of speech. Because i can speak my mind. And so that. I don't have to be part of this tiananmen square massacre that i was trying to escape from and here i am feeling the exact same way by the country that i have every right to be in. I feel for all of my asian brothers and sisters right now and thank you for all the allies who've been vocal in supporting us and we got to let everyone know. This is just not fucking okay anymore yet. I think it's this complement of ba. Glenn you know feminine submissive. Not a cop labatt at. I think like you know years ago. This is like all women. I mean i think asian women feel it even more but i think this whole like patriarchy of lying men feeling bigger with someone. That's smaller i think for so long. We were fed. Like you're supposed to be feminine. You're supposed to be like that. So that i think is why like i thought like. Oh they're actually like seeing higher than i am in this regard but that is not how it is whatsoever. No one wants to be seen as less than unequal no wants to be like the target of someone because of that like that's not a compliment in any way it is not our job to make you feel like you have a big penis right and if if you think that is what asian women are put on earth to do. Then you go to hell. Yeah it's a fucking ridiculous comments. Said i've gotten that my friends have gone from anything from like. Oh i love thai asian pussies so gross too. Is it true that asian women stay tight eight all their life. I've i've slapped three men in my life. All three because of comments like this. And i hope that i was not the only one that slap them. It is like a rhetoric to like does not really like a wig on this. 'cause i like a lot of white friends of i two. It makes us feel bags. It's like oh you're dot those things either so it's not really like helping either party of this is just making all women feel like shit. Basically i think we just have to recognize the oppression of our words and when we say them do we really mean them. Where does it come from. Where does this stem from. Take a step back before you say things that you've heard on tv or heard your friends joke around about because those words can be extremely hurtful. And that's what our guest. Joseph is going to talk about to with toxic masculinity with the words. You're brought up hearing around. You just like friends where the media even your family. Your parents have said certain things that now's the time to step back and ask. Is this something that is okay to say the most time. It probably is not. Yeah i thought this was really interesting. 'cause i think when i think of toxic masculinity i actually think of the guy that murdered everyone like that is what comes to mind the fact that like the cop was like oh he had a bad day. Oh my god cupboard. There's so many other ways to handle a bad day other. They've killing a bunch of people. Let's take that for what that is. But i think what i think of toxic masculinity i think of like taking outrage at lake treating women poorly. There's definitely that side of it. But i think what joseph briggs especially it's also interesting because he's at each bail which i think he should bales also face. This like cut a submissive vibe to there's actually stats that like e should bed are victims of crimes bore than white bed or even other bed of color. Just because they're more seed as week. Ed i think like the fact that he talks about just the whole notion of like the way the he felt route toxic masculinity it wasn't even a surly toxic masculinity that bedwar dewey to women but how it can also have impact and other man's psyche. The whole locker room talk. He talks about how uncomfortable it is to be in the cross wires of when people are talking about women in certain way and then they questioned his sexuality when he doesn't talk about women and certainly and he was questioned that by a which i e so crazy to think about too so these are just some of the things we just gotta step back and think about like. Why are we talking like this. Where where did this language come from. It makes absolutely no sense. And trevor noah made a really good point in his rant. His instagram rant is phenomenal. If you haven't seen it or heard i'd he says why is it that in the atlanta shootings. The media was trying to humanize the shooter. By saying he was at at the end of his rope. He had a really bad day. He had a sex addiction with what about the eight people whose lives are now gone whose families have to deal with the hurt right and the pain of losing their family members.

00:10:07 - 00:15:03

What about those people did. They deserve to be at the end of someone's rope and the consequences of someone. Having a bad day shield posted. Something that was like i had a was that got Yes we can eat cake visitor. Had a bad day. I had a six chicken thighs. Murder people. It's true though. But i think the other side about it anyway. Way giving eddie reason against the sky. But i think it is a sign of toxic masculinity because we talk about with joseph that like the side effects. Is this aggression that comes out or suicide or like things that really can be detrimental to a person because of all this like bottled up emotion and again. I'm not making excuses for the sky at all. But i'm sure that's where came from the fact that he like didn't have outlets to get this out and it's problematic for society because then it ends up being you know someone that's just in there. Doing their job gets reprimanded essentially. But i'm glad you brought this up julie because remember in our conor beaten Episode he talks about being at the end of your rope and feeling like you're a- you've hit rock bottom and that's when you feel like you need a change and we talked about how a lot of men feel like they hot. They have to hit that rock bottom before they change out of toxic masculine behavior. But they'll that episode was so fantastic because we talk about how you don't need to hit the rock bottom. We actually have to catch the toxic masculinity before gets there because that's when it gets dangerous or the people for the person himself and for society totally. I think the other thing that was super interesting as well is that like relating it actually back to last week's about age what combat and our facebook group victoria one of our community members made a comment that she likes to date down because it away it actually levels. The playing fields between med witted. Because by default bed are like higher on the to patriarchy of like all the stuff that we're living in a beyonce world so i thought that was like super interesting combat. If the said that lake this has existed every aspect of our lives with toxic masculinity whether it's like a direct or an indirect so these are some the topics that we actually discuss in the sounding board with other open. Mind open heart people who are willing to have these open discussions about them. And that's why we love this community so much and we don't just we don't just talk about deep topics like this. I mean obviously. This is a very heavy heavy topic. We also talked about other things like go staying breath cramming and any other like new dating term. That's out there and we keep it light and fun as well so if you're looking for that community especially during this time and you're craving that support the community that we've created at the sounding board is i think one of the best communities out there For anybody who seeking that. And i just wanna make a plug for what we've created. They're just go to dateable. Podcast dot com slash. Something bad for all the information. We had a wonderful event with ken. Page on deeper dating. But also finding your core gifts jewelry. Were you like what a mike court give like. What does that even mean. Yeah i think like You might be able to tell for by a little raspy at under the weather right this minute. I've actually had a head cold. But i didn't think was cove it a pretty damn sure about that because i don't have any of the symptoms for covid but i think like i was a little delirious and i like china put everything together and i think what i realized what i was hopped up on cold. Mads was that that. I think that things because we did bring it back to dating trauma. That was kind of a piece of this. That i think like regardless we all have troub- i beat including some of the stuff. We were talking about earlier. Like that's traumatic. What i've learned though. Is that the things that sting us. The deepest are actually our core gaffe so like i was thinking about it like if ghosts really bothers you like that is like so traumatic that fear go stick happening like if you look at the flip side of ghosting. Why it bothers you is. That suppled was not able to close the loop in a way that felt respectful even though it was a difficult conversation and the way i look at that is like actually your core gift is that you really value that. And that's something that you're able to do and that's why it heads to dig really deep for you. What i've learned from all of this conversation is yes. We could feel what we feel with all the trauma that happens a dig at the end of the day like just sitting at hurt. Is it moving us forward so while we could feel it like just getting bitter war bidder like what is that. How is that helping us. So i love this like reach shanley get into like i can't deal with these people that are flaky.

00:15:03 - 00:20:00

Well that means that. I pretty dab like reliable that ice stick with my god's by plaid's like that makes me a great partner like rather us reframe things that way yeah. I had a lightbulb moment with that. Because i think about how for a earlier on in dating a lot of people say I really do not like it when people go so i really do not like when people don't text back would have we flip the script and instead of listing out all the things you don't like in dating you flip it to all the things that you do mayer and that you do well so i am very accountable and i respond back to tax in a timely manner and i never ghost if you turn it back on you. It gives more accountability for the person that you're dating has now. They're thinking okay if she values these these qualities than i must uphold my standards to the same level and it's also instead of looking at it like this person goes to. There's something wrong with me. It's okay this person can't communicate effectively. Do i want that. you know. I think there's that shift that's a subtle shift. Did you can argue like maybe. It doesn't change your life outcome at that moment. That person still ghosted you. But i strongly that actually does change your out cobb because you show up to the deck state positive instead of the state of a poor like who wants to date that. No-one nobody know buddy very good point office. Should we go into some of our sponsors. Let's do it. This episode is sponsored by apostrophe a prescription skin care company for people that are ready to take their skin. Seriously i've struggled with skin issues. All my life ranging from acne uneven skin tone and outraging now with all the mask wearing. It's exasperatingly my skin issues. And then apostrophe comes to the rescue. So here's how it works. You fill out an online questionnaire about your skin concerns. Snap few sell. Fees and a board certified. Meteorologist creates a customized treatment. Plan just for you. Your medications are then delivered to your home easy. It took me maybe three minutes to fill out the questionnaire and upload my photos and very sorry my treatment in i'll update you all on how that's going in a few weeks so far. I've seen a drastic reduction in my mask. That's mask acne. In case you no in the meantime given dollars off your first visit with a board. Certified dermatologist at apostrophe dot com slash dateable and user code dateable. This code is only available for our listeners to get started just go to apostrophe dot com slash dateable and click began visit then use usa code. Dateable sign up and you get fifty dollars off your dermatology visit. That's a p. o. t. r. p. h. e. dot com slash d. a. e. a. b. l. e. unused code dat ab l. e. to get your dermatology visit for fifty dollars off. Here's a special message from our sponsor. Gobble do you remember at the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was like super pumped about cooking and sharing their food photos right. Remember that a million months later. No one's posing their food photos anymore. Because we're all so frigging sick of cooking. I know at least for me. I just need variety and my meals. And i can't -ccomplish that by just cooking my own. That is why gobble is the perfect meal delivery solution because you can whip up delicious and healthy meals in fifteen minutes or less gobble and listen army of sous-chef that do the time consuming work for you. And we tried the musa glazed salmon and was divine. Everything comes with pre portioned fresh ingredients such as already chop veggies spice blends and perfectly summer sauces. Just pick meals from gobbles extensive menu each week including a variety of flavors classic dishes global recipes and delicious vegetarian options plus a line of lean and clean recipes featuring low calorie and low carb options and by the way. They always have breakfast and desserts yacht. That's right see what a difference gobble will make for your household. They're offering our listeners. This fantastic limited time deal for six meals for thirty six dollars plus free shipping. That's dinner for two people for three nights all for just thirty six bucks. An offer only available through gobble dot com slash. Dateable get a special offer now by going to gobble dot com slash dat ab ellie for six meals. Thirty six bucks. I have also been loving goppel lately. I like obsessed with that. I feel like it has made by like healthy. Eating on autopilot. It especially after gaining with the covid. Fifteen is exactly what i needed right now so like i have just kind of giving another adornment that i just absolutely love gobble while to continue on. Does gobble rant. I was telling talking to a friend who was all about productivity. And he was saying that we spend on average three hours a day cooking and eating now those three hours a day. If you are in some sort of a career where you can charge an rate think about with three hours could mean. Oh come to the bottom line.

00:20:01 - 00:25:05

So he started automating. So he's like i'm automating. I'm giving it out to someone else to cook for me. So that i can use that time and spend it on my clients or spend on my business. Oh a hundred percent. i think. That's what by downfall. Was that the start. Of course not. I was cooking all these bills. That i just got overwhelmed because i didn't have the time and then i started to a takeout which is bad for you so and way more expensive also like gobble. They like make the whole deal ahead of time. Essentially takes like fifteen minutes. It is legit restaurant quality. I really like golf. But i think i've sold like four fred's the last week is up obsessive about bhai gospel talk. I know you're hungry. We aboard portia. Thanks talk about. let's talk about toxic masculinity. Here's joseph what is toxic masculinity mean. We've talked about this with previous gas. We've had numerous conversations about it. But i can never get sick of this topic because i really think that it is the root of so many societal issues and doesn't mean we're going to get to the bottom of it but at least we can uncover more perspectives about it. And that's why we have our guest. Joseph with us today. Joseph high youtube. It's great to be here. Have new joseph has been in the bay area for twelve years he was born. La grew up in sacramento. He's twenty nine years old by the time this comes out. I think you'll be thirty. So these the future self. Yes the dirty thirty. He is pretty single and has been taking a dating sabbatical. That's what they all say. Isn't it yeah cover times. It's so easy to take sabbatical. You're like covid sadiq sabbatical. Yeah why not. It makes sense. So joseph has been a serial monogamous. but he's been he's been single for the past year and he says he's been putting a lot of work into self and personal development. He is a health coach and trainer. Which by the way. I just gotta say very few asian males in the space who are like out there who are putting their content out there putting their faces out there so i commend you for that and as a male and fitness he struggled with masculinity because he just didn't vibe so well with the straight bro type of person that has been infiltrating the fitness industry for a long time. I know that type all too well but you are straight like. I think that's an interesting point. Is that even as a straight man. You don't identify with the others. Straight men that are brohi. Yeah definitely always felt like it's hard for me to find a place in like a fitness world. In that way. What do you think it has been like growing up. What has been the historic definition of masculinity that you know of. I think that's very Subjective case. Because i think men don't always have all the same experiences right. There's a this guy named louis house who has a podcast called a school of greatness and he has a book called a mask of masculinity where there's all these different types of masculine archetypes for me growing up as asian american. I really identified with. What a typical asian success story. Looks like which would be your family. Essentially want you to be like a doctor like a lawyer. An engineer you know just achieving really really high. So that they can kind of brag about your life as well and then if you choose to kind of live a different path than what they wanted for you then you're almost seen as like a failure and that there's no hope for you another thing that i struggle with masculinity was that it was really hard for me is in american to share motion with the people around me especially my dad and my brother so A big part of my story is that my mother passed away when i was fifteen years old. And i'm a huge mama's boy. And i i i still. I was born on international women's day. I still have a lot of eight with go But after my mom passed away it was really hard for my dad and my brother to communicate on these deeper levels. I looking back on it now. I know that my dad was really struggling and he was really going through so much and even just recently. When i saw them around christmas time finally having a real conversation and i asked him how he was doing that time and he told me that he was really struggling but he couldn't tell me And i felt like that was kind of the same mentality that i was carrying forward with my life as well that i was struggling to be vulnerable struggling to talk about you know real things and a lot of times you think feelings are week as a man a big part of my story.

00:25:06 - 00:30:02

I sent you a talk that i did at imagine talks about redefining masculinity for men in happier society so what show to do is redefine the values that we're given men so one of the things that i wanted to redefine was no redefining greatness. And how a greatness is not about. It's not about outshining other people around you. It's about helping others find their glow. Has them be the best that they can be. Another one was Strength is not about being unstoppable. A strength is about being vulnerable. You know being able to tell people what's truly going on your life. I think that requires so much strength. But the last thing that i wanted to redefine was actually how love and love is not a sign of weakness. Because that's what i thought it was. Love is our most powerful gift. I think love is the most powerful gift that we could ever give someone in our lives because when my mom was like so she got something that was actually really similar to kovic. She basically got this parasite in her lungs and it basically destroyed her lungs for the crazy thing about. This is that she was in her for three months and it lasted all the way till january fifteenth. So she passed away january fifteenth. Two thousand seven martin luther king day. That year was crazy because she was awake for three days actually because she was in a drug induced coma for three months and she was awake for three days. And that was christmas eve. Christmas in the day after christmas. You're kidding me. Yeah she fully company you can look at us and she could even speaks Slightly to us as well. And even though i knew my mom is dying in front of me. You know. these were her last could have been her last days Didn't know and it was so hard for me to say i love you. I'm so grateful for everything that you are. And i want you to keep powering through this. It was hard for me to give her a hug and her a kiss them cheek. I feel a lot of regret from that time. That's why i'm always going to talk about that. I don't want anyone if they're a man or female or whatever like hold back from saying these words. I love you or showing love with the people around them. I want to drill into this. Like love as a weakness like how is the up in your romantic relationships. Also where did you get that notion in the first place. So we're i got that notion. I guess just growing up like i said at an agent family. It was really hard for us to show love and appreciation for the people around us If that was your family members or your friend's how comes into relationships a lot of times struggling to to let people know what's going on inside situations because even now i'm looking at situations that i've gone through in my most previous relationship and being like wow i i really messed up here. I could have made the situation a lot better if i did the work on myself. So there's a lot of power just holding someone in our conversation right so if i was having an argument with my ex girlfriend and she was yelling at me saying whatever she wanted to and then at the end of it. When we're breaking up. She said you know. I wish you could just hold held me. I wish you could just like talk to me about this stuff. It sounds easy to say that now. Right 'cause then in the moment when someone's yelling at you saying your piece of shed for you. What you believe is not really an issue or we're not really that big of a deal if you could have just like held onto that person instead of you know getting upset back and being like hey let's just talk about this you know I definitely wish. I had more patients in that way and more love because i feel like if i had enough love to overpower the anger and frustration that i was feeling and i believe that love would prevail in that situation. Was that because you've viewed that as like how you should be a man or like. Why did you turn to anger over turning to love. yes i think. I think it's just a the things that you've value will appear in your life if you have a different situation where know someone is like being a mean person to you and then you value kindness. Or you're like oh this person's trying to like make me feel like shit but i'm gonna try and return kindness to them. I think that would make a difference. If that's what you value and i think if you continue to value love every situation i think that's what's gonna get revealed you know so i think as a man i think. Sometimes it's still is a little bit more difficult to share that value. If you can kind of think about other values that are not that you hold onto you but other values at our guest distracting from wanting to do that i want it take a step back and use the term that tim ferriss uses is double click on these moments in your life and we all have peace defining moments in our life that propel us to be who we are today and what we stand for so i m densify to just buy your story alone.

00:30:03 - 00:35:13

One is the moment your dad told you that he was struggling but he couldn't tell you so. Let's go back to that moment. How did you feel when he told you that. And how did it motivate you to change that that school of thought. Yeah i i feel like as men a toxic masculinity will show up in a lot of different ways right. i think there's different levels of it. You know you can see things like a physical abuse emotional abuse right and then you also see suicide as a side effect toxic masculinity but i think what can sometimes be more damaging is the subtleties of it. Right where someone inside is screaming for help and you know they're just getting so crushed and they're feeling so much pain inside but they refuse to share that and they're not able to be vulnerable. They're not able to ask for help. Times men we struggle with letting people know what steeply going on inside of our hearts because we're afraid to feel weak when in actuality like some of the most important conversations that we need to have our the conversations that are going on inside of us so that takes me to the next defining moment in your life. Which is you didn't have. You haven't talked about it. But i think it will be a defining moment when we hear about it. It's the first time you said i love you. Can you take us back to that time to the person you said it to. And how did you work up the courage to say those words Yet i think it was really really hard for me. you know. it's something that you can like. Hold in and then was actually like a very emotionally intimate relationship and sexually intimate relationships. I think it was like after that where you're going and you're like wow you know how old were you and how did you say it. Yeah i think it was. Probably when i was freshman in college Kind of my first real relationship. It wasn't like epic like romantic. I think the thing. That's about what i went through that. You know when i lost my mom. I wanted to clean to partnership actually i wanted to cling to these women because i was trying to fill a void as well like you know me losing that motherly figure and i think a lot of times i ended at it made me look really move. Forward really fast with Some relationships and kind of going to a place where we're like really codependent. And you know. Probably i think i probably said i love you like within a month or something allow like just running and gunning being like all right. Let's let's do all the things i've been waiting for this in may eighteen years old ready for marriage and like no lead. So how did you get over the fear because you were saying earlier. That like i love you. Is this like super scary thing to say that you felt like you couldn't do that among thin. That's like that's just a total one. How did how did you make that change. I think the thing that's funny. Is that you know i remember hearing this. It's like men will speak at different tones right when they're speaking with people like with their broza like it was a bro ca. Do or their families probably a little bit more normal and then when they when the girls their partners the girls are guys. Whoever it is their partners it'd be like speaking lot higher pitch a completely different setting whereas like i'm not you know so are no one's gonna no so that's like the opposite though of what you were describing earlier with toxic masculinity keeping it all in like. How did you make that shift like. I think i'm still curious what happened. That made you ultimately be like. I don't wanna be this type of guy. I'm just gonna let my feelings out and let these women know exactly how i feel so i think i think this toxic anything is also. It's like a really layered situation. Because i think there's toxic masculinity like as a person as a whole like what they are going through their whole entire experience and i don't think it's going to necessarily translate fully to okay toxic masculinity also just sent in dating camapign that way as well does that. Does that make sense. Maybe they're two ways that toxic mouths masculinity can manifest. This is how i see it in the books. I've read about it. It's manifest either in some sort of physical behavior so like violence or war suicide. Because it's from like repressing feelings from childhood trauma right another way. Toxic masculinity manifests. Is you disconnect your words to your feelings. So we're where we see that is in the form of fuck boys. They have no problems. Telling you everything you want to hear. But it doesn't connect with their heart and they're able to leave much faster because they've they've trained years to separate their words from their deep down feelings that they haven't addressed so i can see how someone who didn't grow up saying i love.

00:35:13 - 00:40:07

You can then also quickly say. I love you to get the affections to get close to someone without actually feeling what that means and also. I wonder if there's some of it that like you said that you're displacing feelings for your mother like onto these women's looking back. Do you think you actually did truly love them or like like. Did you just fall fast. Because he were displacing that love or like. Did you really have that love to give. I think that was a big part of it because Yeah this is actually really helpful. Because i think a lot of times in my first relationships was definitely built around like sexual intimacy. You know because. I thought that's what i was supposed to do. You know i. I was a super late bloomer. I got my first kiss when i was eighteen years old. And my i like actual relationship was when i was a freshman in college and then that relationship was actually really built around. You know like saks. And when i kinda like wanted to see the end of the relationship i knew that it wasn't really a true thing. It wasn't really like this. Full on like emotionally mature relationship in a lotta ways. It was actually me doing what i thought a man was supposed to do and i was like you know i think yeah. It's definitely true. Is that i built a lot of relationships around like sexual intimacy and thinking that was love so i think i got really close with these people really fast because you know we had sexual connection. I was like really excited about that. Was like my first time to experience these things but soon after that when was supposed to be a real relationship where you know you're done with a honeymoon phase and you know you go to this place where you're trying to foster something that was just a struggle for me and i ended up leaving these people and Just breaking their hearts in a million pieces and Because you didn't have the emotional capabilities it's more of like you. You acquitted sacks with love not necessarily emotional depth that you needed to actually truly love someone and i think i think it can be easily disguised right because it's a very intimate connection. After i graduated college there was My last relationship was probably the most kind of codependent relationship and then After those i was with a girl who was doing a lot more self work and Able to create these boundaries. And i started reading more and educating myself on these issues as well i think as a man. I think a lot of times. We don't know we don't have the education behind. Oh this is how you create better boundaries or oh this person needs to live their life and i just need to support them and stuff you know spor like all. I wanna do my thing. And then they're going to do they're going to be around me as well and you know support me and my thing and sometimes it might be hard to create the right boundaries unless you have the education you're doing the work on yourself to see whether issues are coming up this. It sounds like this relationship really did help you start to kind of become more emotionally available in like really get in touch with that side and i think that is so fascinating that you thought that you had all this love but it was really displeased in sacks is there anything else in terms of like typical toxic masculinity traits that you experienced at one point. And now you feel like you've overcome. Yeah i i really learned a lot from being in that relationship. But also i think for me. I was a really important moment of my life. When i was starting to meet like really good friends and men that i looked up to you so one thing that i struggled with was being vulnerable and like letting people know that I needed to work on myself for letting people know about the mistakes that i had and actually have a really good friend of mine. He was one of my really good friends that i was able to have conversations with him about you know relationship stuff and he's a lot older than me as well key like recommended me like reading different books and he is like he had a a pass. Marriage didn't work out and he was able to share with me a lot of the things that he's gone through an has been able to Learn over time. So i struggled before with creating solid relationships with men that i look up to you know and i think a big part of the rite of passage of being better man is to just be around like men that you feel like you can look up to that. You know we're gonna have your back and they're going to help you be a better person And i didn't have that before so. I think i was probably. I probably had that. When i was twenty seven or twenty eight you know i felt like it was hard for me to look up to the people who like men in my life actually and i struggled with having close intimate relationship.

00:40:07 - 00:45:07

I think there are several areas where toxic masculinity shows up that are so subtle that we don't recognize them and you say you didn't recognize him until your late twenties. I recently just recognize them. And i'm forty so you are ten steps ahead of everyone else. I would say i'll give you some examples of when i look back in my life and how i perpetuated this kind of behavior one is. I took my male cousin to a club when he was eighteen. And the whole time i was just telling him to hook up with girls like go find a girl. Go take a chick home. Never in any universe. Would i tell that to a guy that i would want to date. Oh it's awesome. If you go to club and sleep with random people but for some reason as my male cousin. I felt like i had to start em young on that kind of behavior in. You would never do that for a woven either like ever a girlfriend. You would never do that for hell. No the second time. I recognize this behavior was i was listening to my guy friends body. Shame each other yeoman. You're looking kind of fat like what's going on. God those cheeseburgers on you. Oh you you must be related to my cousin. 'cause he's fat to like that's not okay. Those are times. I should have been like you guys. That's not cool. Because even though i think these men can put up a front and say us plenty. Were just like we're just giving each other sheds they're young bros. That are just so damaging to their own self confidence in the third time. I recognize this. Was i work in a male dominated industry and there's always locker room talk always and i always thought to fit in. I join in on that locker room. Talk it oh who's hot you. Who would i sleep. With if i if i had the chance and i always thought that was a way to fit in when it really was my moment to say guys. That's just not. Okay being the crossfire without locker room. Talk how does that make you feel especially in this industry and has there ever been a time where you sort of. Stop the conversation and said i'm not cool with this. Yeah definitely. I definitely do experience that even even still you go If i hang out with you know some strike is some guys like do you like calisthenics outside or something or we'll they'll have these conversations being like. Oh yeah we're going be sleeping with her and stuff like that. I definitely don't like to hear that at all. You know and you kinda feel like you have to to say something. Sometimes you know. I would say like when i was working in corporate gyms we'd have more of those conversations and you know you allowed times you end up saying stuff like that as well being like. Oh yeah like betcha she super high you know you should go get her as well. Yeah and it's just a it's a challenge that you know you feel like you have to fit in otherwise. That person is going to think that you know you're a pussy or you're less than a man. I i know for me like there's a lot of times where someone is saying stuff like that and i should do a better job. I'll just not say anything. Or i'll change the subject. But you know i. It's hard for me to be like. Hey like stop saying those things about this girl. That should we take one quick break from joseph story to get into a quick message from our partner. This episode is sponsored by better help. We dateable are huge fans of therapy in better help can match you with your own. Licensed therapist and connect to in a safe and private online environment. Me for example. I was able to start communicating with my family in less than forty eight hours. It was so quick now. Better help is facilitating great therapeutic matches and it's more affordable than traditional offline counseling. They're licensed professionals specialize in everything from dating trauma stress anxiety trauma with a big t. A depression grief you name it. They have someone who's an expert in that we adaptable wish for all of you to live a happy healthy life and that's why a listener you'll get ten percent off your first month by visiting our sponsor at better help dot com slash dateable join over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health again. That's better help spelled. H. e. l. p. dot com slash dat ab l. e. So even now that you're like self-aware it's still difficult you're saying too i think There's like a fear. I think a lot of men will probably have a fear that you know we're not gonna be accepted into like this clan. You know it's like kind of that clan mentality whereas all everyone's trying to fit in everyone's trying to have the same conversation the same talk. I think that's why a lot of times i felt like you know i didn't feel at place in a lot of fitness world's environments because a lot of the talk would be built around that you know you start talking with the trainers About like you know some girls are coming in that you you have a crush on and you wanna kinda like follow them or whatever inside the jam and make them feel awkward and weird.

00:45:07 - 00:50:01

You kind of feel like you have to be be that person. So did you always feel the spy like even like growing up. Did you feel like out of place when men would talk this way or was it something new that you realize later in life. I think a lot times. He fo- like less a man. You know i think in in the earlier part of my life. I felt less of a man for sure i was like asian guy in sacramento where it's primarily like a white suburban place and sometimes girls will look at you and be like. Oh he's asian. You know like i struggled with confidence even like kiss the girl. I got my first kiss when i was like eighteen. You know my one of my friends is trying to make me like just the girl. I wanna problem with junior prom and couldn't even do that. Yeah i felt like i was undervalued as a man because i couldn't make experience that or didn't have the courage to suck making moves on girls and earning my validation in that way as i say like okay i totally get that you felt like less than growing up but like did you want to participate in the conversation. Like did you have a drive to Always like what are these guys doing. Like this is not the type of guy wanna be. Yeah of course you you want belong you know especially at that young age even still now like you. You wanna feel at play in that these people and you know a lot of my life. It was hard for me to feel at place you know. It's hard for me to relate to the people because it didn't really seem like my vibe but it seemed like it was a conversation that i wanted to have would feel really wrong inside of me to be like have all my conversations talking about girls or you know talking about sports all day you know i. I struggle with talking about nothing. I wanted to be able to see like the deaths of people. Like i'm really emotional will help me. Was you know being at twenty four fitness. I i got my Personal training star in the castro. And you know it was. It was a great experience because you helped me know what feels like to be looked at like a piece of me. You know walking around. But also i built like really good like relationships with these people and you know to this day. A lot of my clients are just gay males. You know because i feel like we can. We can talk about shit you know we can talk about things that were going through or you know. I feel like there so a lot of times. Gay males are so open so vulnerable because that's takes so much courage to even Open up in that way right. And i like to think of myself as a very emotionally open person as well. So being at twenty four hour fitness. And being around people in the castro. It really helped me grow as a person and helped me find people that can really relate to a little bit more and find my place so women are part of this equation to this is not a conversation just for men and i want to find out more about your experience with that because i think for a lot of us who've experienced toxic masculinity and relationships when we see so much it becomes the norm so when they we don't see behavior of toxicity. We're like what's wrong with him. why is he we. Have you ever experienced that kind of pushback or questioning three year. Dating experience definitely. Yes so my last girlfriend. I think we got along pretty well emotionally for the most part when She wasn't like yelling at me. And call me a piece of shit but She's a really kind person the movies. Yeah that was the best transition ever. The thing is like someone outside of a relationship is a lotta times completely different from in that relationship right so she can be around her friends. They can be like all. She's such a nice person you know she's i mean so kind so warm and then they'll look at you like what the heck is your problem like. How come how come you. Yeah why. You guys struggling. Because she's so like and warm so with her. She would accuse me of being gay like every. Every time i'd be hanging out with some of my friends that were gay yes I made a video for one of my friends. And he's like a soul cycle instructor. He's openly gay and he has a nonprofit for gay men of color or lgbtq youth of color. And i made this video for him. Because we could really relate on spirituality and all these different levels he wants to do good in the world he wants people to feel seen and heard and to have a platform and i made this video for him and after i made that she was like a up with you in this guy like are you guys seeing each other like does eaten loves. He likes you he likes you. Can't you see that and then She started like really accusing me of being a and got a quantum pretty frequently. How did that make you feel. It's it's tough. Because i feel like i just wanna be accepting of people.

00:50:01 - 00:55:01

I want to be loving people. And i ended up hanging out with a lot of guys because we can be more vulnerable. And i'm pretty open about like for lgbtq hugh rights and church like. I want to fight for them. I want to be ally but then it sucks to have someone just see that love and appreciation for a group of people and j just automatically thanks. It's because you know you wanna have sex with them. Or i don't know it sounds like she wasn't accepting you as you were essentially and i think it's like i've i've heard this from other experts to it's like us as women. Oftentimes we say we want this really emotional man but then when they break down crying. We think something's wrong or we think like you know like there's some feminine or to like their day like whatever it may be like. How is that going to help. Men be able to be who they really are. If that's what the reaction is when they actually show their true colors invulnerability definitely. I think it's so interesting. Because you actually see a lot of females in fitness that are like super super masculine energy and then you know a lot of time all like talk to them like how you do and like. I know that you just had this loss in your family can. Do you wanna talk about it. Like i'm here for you. And then that's even hard for them to so a lot of times they'll have like masculine energy that it'll be hard for them to be vulnerable. It'd be hard for them to ever feel week when you're pushed to be quote unquote masculine. It makes you remove yourself from who you authentically are. And that's what we see. Violent behavior out lash. That's when we see people becoming something that they're not because they're being pushed into this category that they don't feel they can relate to and i find that so disheartening. Because i can't imagine how many men are in this position how lonely and isolating must feel to constantly use the word disguise joseph. I think that is a word to disguise themselves as this person that they're they truly aren't. Yeah i mean. I was looking up just like in preparation of this like some of the major ways that toxic masculinity shows up and relationships. And i think we've hit a bunch of them like one being not showing pain expressing feelings which is basically what you were just saying. It's like this fear of doing that because this is the reaction. That's going to be so. I'm just going to bottle it up and not show it in not be less than a man. The other one was not asking for help. And then the third one definitely talked about is sexual. Vitality dominance in women and just like viewing sex ask which we talked about earlier and then using violence to solve conflicts. Maybe let's double click in the not asking for help like have you seen that one in relationships yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why i wasn't growing before. I mentioned that earlier. That one of the main ways. That i grew as a man was just asking. My who was previously married has lived on much longer life about you know how. How can i be a better man in this. You know. how can i look at my mistakes. And i think a lotta times. I wasn't looking at Didn't want to do the work. Because i didn't know i didn't have anyone to kind of like us go. How can i be better. You know just a lot of times in relationships we ended up doing just what we know we we just know we see in our parents or in movies tv shows and we believe this is what we should act like and we don't have those relationships in our lives where you know we can ask people for help on how to be a better man and how to be better in relationship and we're just not going to really grow as much as we need to. So what are some ways that you're growing today. How are you working to become a better man every day. Yeah i think In terms of relationship. I actually i think a big mistake of mine recently was This last year. I went from that relationship with this girl who is very like emotionally kinda like working on herself and a little bit more mature and then i ask soon as i got out of that relationship i kinda jumped into another one super fast and usually i'll take a year to kind of grow and and work on myself but it was not the toxic one that i jumped in that one and there was some books that i wanted to read after that previous relationship was ending In one of them was called getting to your commitment. And i think one thing. That's really cool is that they. They changed their wording to kind of relate a little bit more to the masculine reader. I feel like a lot of times. You know when you're reading like dating books it's like brunei brown talking about phone ability and all this week seven.

00:55:01 - 01:00:21

I love her new brand. I read so much brown. But it's not appealing to the average male though it wasn't written for men but this book on getting to commitment. I really like the word that they use like. After is the courage to do this. You know the courage has stopped blaming the courage to be vulnerable zoe's different strategies that they had about where you should have courage courage to stay grounded and to not. Just let your mind. Just go to hold a place like fantasy So i think that was like super important for me to see something that i could actually relate to a little bit more. You know to see like a while if someone could change Like being a better man as being more courageous in relationship. That's when i was like. Oh wow. I actually want to do this. You know because it's a courageous act and it's like you know that's what we kind of i guess associate with like all like knight in shining armor and stuff like that and to see that wording made me feel a lot more comfortable with doing that work there. I'm also seeing a meditation coach. Right now she has been really impactful in my life. It's pretty crazy because you know i did. A course on meditation fifteen day short one just to have like a one on one kind of conversation with this girl. And she's taught me a meditation. That's very a simple. Just focus on your breath or fifteen thirty minutes and in those times like i'll visualize myself going through those like past mistakes and all. This is what i should have done in the situation. I wish science. Why i was talking about that girl who is like super toxic in my life. You know i don. I don't think our relationship would have made it If i were to make these changes solely. But i do believe it would help us like. I didn't have to add fuel to the fire in. I could have just slowed down a little bit. Some of the things that she would always talk about was how. I always wanted to do what i wanted to do. And i think a lot of times that could be like a a male thing. I don't think it's necessarily always a bad thing. I think people have the right to live the life that they want. But i feel like it should still incorporate both parties as much as he can. I know that was something that she said. That really hurt me and but it also made me think i was like oh well like i wonder if i was just like always focused on what i wanted to do if my job or instead of lifting up another person i think. Sometimes that's what can often use that will focus on being successful and you know at whatever cost you know. There's actually a book called like lonely. Lonely at the top about how men were just really work on themselves so much and you know really want to achieve success. But then what's the cost of that. Is you lose relationship. You lose family. You're not able to have close friendships. Where the guys around you. So i don't wanna phones. That trap stems also from lake just male female roles historic roles that like. They're whatever they were doing. Essentially was the priority in the woman was supporting them. And obviously that's not the world we live in today but there is that talks. City that hasn't fully evaporated from that day and age as well and that just shows that toxic masculinity doesn't have to be negative behavior. I think there may be some listeners. Thinking oh i'm not toxic masculine est or whatever i i am a good person but what you just described was taking control of your life and being independent making decisions could be a product of toxic masculinity you forget to involve the other people in your life. So what are some ways people can recognize if they do have this some level of toss toxic masculinity in them which i would argue most men do all man i feel like brazil just is like the least toxic bad i ever talked to but i feel like i feel like it's just because it's been ingrained in use for so long right. It's like not even your fall. It's just that it's we're really like unraveling like years in years of patriarchy right. Yeah i think What it comes down to is having the ability to see yourself almost like as a third person you know being able to to look at yourself from a different perspective and a lotta times. It happens through journaling where you're like. Oh why is this not relationship not working out. There is something that really going deep into it so so just looking. Over like hey. This relationship didn't work out. Was there something a value. That i was folding. That wasn't serving me. And where did that come from. Why is the case you know. How does that affect me. And my partner by Just really going deep into creating that emotion in figuring it out you know another thing that he said is that you know when you're inside of a jar safe inside a jar you wouldn't be able to read what's on the label of the jar you know because you're inside of it so you have to be able to look outwards and having such good talks with my brother actually Says he's always reading these books on staff on his relationships.

01:00:22 - 01:05:01

You know he's been letting me speak a little bit more into his life as well mean. I'm so grateful that he's able to talk to me about the stuff that he's going through. We just need sometimes that other person's perspective we can't do that for ourselves and we of course want to have the tools to do that but it's always going to be nice to have someone else who is like a brother physical brother real brother or a close friend that they can really look at your life and be like hey man like this happened for this reason probably and you know. How do you feel about that. I think one thing that i'm learning is that it takes so much humility to look at yourself and being like you know 'cause there can be an issue that can be clear issue that someone is packing yelling at you saying your piece of shit right huge issue but that doesn't mean that you're not messing up. Either you know like being like oh shit. You know like one of the things that i've learned the thinking that but getting to commitment that it's never like a sixty forty split or fifty fifty split in a relationship. It's always a hundred hundred. We lose have to take one hundred percent of these issues right. So it's like sometimes if someone's treating us like shirt and it's a tough relationship where like hey like their foggin seventy percent responsible of this mistake and i'm thirty percent responsible so i'm just gonna forget about it but it's like you're not doing any work you're not learning about yourself right and i mean obviously there's toxic relationships and that's probably another whole episode for another day but i think in most relationships there's a reason you're there to begin with array for the most part again on one hundred percent but for the most part there's good in too so i think that accountability is really important and i think the old toxicity of men would just be like. Oh it's all her fault overreacting kind of undermining get a bit in. I was like looking at some just doing some research for this episode two in the race. Definitely like i think you hit the nail on the head. It's like it's shows up in really slight ways. We think of it as like sexism or rage or the extremes. I was reading one example about like ed. O of this has happened to you a when you don't respond to someone on a data gap right away. And then they certainly harassing. You is a form of title matt. Yep exactly it off balances youtube right. It's already saying that. I have power over you so i can just demand your time at end that i could say like talk to me when it's convenient for me and get upset. If you don't do that i would not have thought that was toxic masculinity. I always thought it was like a sign of a red flag for sure. I never acquainted into toxic masculinity but it. Yeah i mean i think that kind of like brings me to some takeaways. I think like one of the things that definitely came up for me in this discussion. First of all thank you for being so vulnerable with asked. I feel i definitely learned like a lot of just like thought processes and all that but i think so much of it when things like the toxic behaviors that show up really come down to the fact that someone has taken the time to do the self work in. It's hard for man. Like i want to recognize that. It's hard for men because as women. We are kind of encouraged to go against the grain in recent years. Especially with feminism. At all that it's starting to happen with men. We've had a lot of these like redefining masculinity talks but it's a long process and i think men have been bucket one group for so long like this is how you behave as a man and i think it is hard to unravel and i think it does take that time and as women we also need to support men like if they start crying we cannot like make fun of people because that is going to suppress it even more when it shows up like obviously not saying stanford bad behavior but also try to have some compassion for this person that they just are not able to like articulate handle their emotions essentially might take away is that the onus is not just on the men in fact the onus is not just on the men who think that they've been victim to toxic masculinity the onus is on all of us because let's look at the cycle of dating you get someone who's a toxic masculine person dating someone dating a woman where he tells her everything she wants to hear and then he leaves her and breaks her heart she. Her heart is stopped to pieces. She's now a man hater so then she spreads the hate of men and next relationship she gets into.

01:05:01 - 01:10:00

It becomes a guilty until proven innocent situation and it's cyclical because then she's going to have a negative behavior in this relationship as starts out toxic because of the previous one and then he's going to respond to that with more toss toxic masculinity so. It just repeats and repeats so i really feel like at least in the last year. I've made it a priority for myself to stop the sort of behaviour right when it happens to address it right there and then and say this is not okay. I'm not okay with this conversation. I'm not okay with the way you're talking about this. I'm not okay with how i feel in this situation because it is toxic. Let's address it now. That is the only way to stop it. We cannot count on the men to be more self aware and to read these books and to journal because men can do all they want right now and they many are in a commend. You joseph leading the pack here. And i'm so happy you came on to tell us your story. But in addition to that everybody else in society has to stop this behavior and also reward good behavior unless keep that in mind. Cause it's gotta stop now in a stops with us. Yeah i mean. I think honestly like pop. Culture like has been major strides in the last years to like. I really watch like how. I met your mother which is like the most toxic show i've ever seen but at one point i thought it was hilarious. And i think it's like recognizing like what is toxic in like you were saying you. Hey it's like instead of just laughing along with it or finding it funny or encouraging it. It's having those conversations and make normalizing the behavior that we want men to people to exhibit not normalizing this toxic behavior ultimately like it's a it's affording men the ability to be who they are like. I think that's like such like. That's so unfair. That like you would obviously could because you're not a gay bad. I don't think it's so unfair. That you would get lumped into a bucket just because you showed a different view of unwanted. Someone's you know thought of what a real straight man should be like you know so. It's just unfortunate that like we. We are just viewing everyone as one. Yeah completely agreed at just. I'm so excited for men and at the same time it must be so scary because look at what we're coming out of. Were coming out of the metoo movement which is all about blaming men so i think a lot of men carry this guilt with them this weight with them. Maybe it's just so daunting to even step back and get out of your jar to look at the label that i think some go into deep deep depression and self isolation so i really hope that this conversation can encourage motivate those of you. Who feel like you've gone down that that dark dark place and know that you can crawl right back out because there are people willing to support you out of that place in us to begin with and joseph to begin with and i have a feeling joseph. You're you're tasked with this responsibility of mentoring who are also trying to get out. No matter how old they are they could be. My dad is approaching seventy and the man is barely crawling out of the dark place. We lost my grandpa his father end of last year. And my dad has not said a peep about it. It's been months and the guy just has shown no emotion about it. And i think it's unfortunate that he's in that place where he's holding it all in so please like this time to reach out and ask for mentorships. Ask for ask for help. That's what we're offering. I mean that goes back to what we're saying it's just like years and years and years of suppression with it because like when i was home with my family to like there was just like this total unbalance of like my mom cooking and cleaning and doing all like you know that type of work and it's just it's hard to view as equals and i think joseph you said something super interesting that i do want to bring home also as a take away. It's like sometimes we as women. We assume aware not enough wake when the guy comes not interested after. You know like you were saying earlier early. We'll have sacks and then when the actual emotions of our relationship come in. I would bail because that's when it caught up with me and i think as women a lot of times we feel like we did something wrong or like there's that end of course. I'm not saying that like there's probably a way that everyone can play. Show up one hundred percent. I love that too in. Meet the person. But i think sometimes it's just having that like understanding that that person just might still be figuring out their own emotional south in.

01:10:00 - 01:14:01

It's not a reflection on you. So joseph if people do want to reach out to you or learn more about you where can they find your stuff. Yes so you can find me on. Instagram underscore joe surf dot. Gabriel underscore Mytalk on redefining. Masculinity is on youtube as well if you look up joseph illustrate some oh l. Us g. r. i s. i m. o. Redefining mastroeni at imagine talks. Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us your story and your journey a favor word and also getting vulnerable or other favorite word word the card art. Thanks for giving us. Thanks for giving us your card for everyone listening right now. We are constantly looking for great guests. Justice like joseph who are going through their own journeys who want to share where they've arrived and where they're planning to go. Silviu fit into that category. Let us know we love to have you as a guest on our show or nominate someone as well if you've been pondering this topic of toxic masculinity and how it plays into your life share your story. We're all about providing this platform for different perspectives. And while you're online looking at our website and looking at joseph stuff on the instagram's definitely gives us a five star review apple podcasts. It's nontoxic it's gmo. Free completely organic and free range. You give us a five star reviews and a nice little saying or whatever you may call it because it helps us get more guests. Just like joseph who are willing to open themselves up to us and know that we are legit. Happy people all right. We're going to wrap this up. The database podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Five more. podcast you'll love at frolic dot media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram. Facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable. Podcast tag us in any post with hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts then head over to our website dateable podcasts dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well. As articles videos in our coaching service. With vetted industry experts you can also find our premium y series we we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums roseau downloadable for free. On spotify apple podcasts. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable look. Staying healthy isn't easy watching your diet hitting the gym avoiding stress. Put a good night's rest helps boost your overall health and wellness and couldn't be easier. The new sleep number. Three sixty bet is the only met. That effortlessly adjusts response to both of you result. You wake up ready for anything. Proven quality sleep is life changing sleep. Don't miss our weekend special. Save a thousand dollars on most popular sport. Bet and adjustable base plus special financing ends monday special financing subject to credit approval minimum monthly payments required. See store for details. Look in your home. Look in your office. Look in your home office everywhere you turn. There's so much smart. At capella university. We think education should be smart to our game. Changing flex path format puts you in control of your masters degree. So you can learn how when and where you want smart Yeah we think so too so if you wanna take the next step in your career may cappella your first step visit cappella dot. Edu learn more capella university. Don't just learn learn smarter.

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