S13E14: What's Your Relationship with Porn? w/ Matt Sinkovitz

00:00:01 - 00:05:00

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Hi Dateables! welcome to another episode of the dateable podcast where we are your dating sociologists and it is our mission in this life to dig to the bottom of people's dating behaviors so we can help you explain it. Navigate it and somehow deal with it. So that's it. That's our spiel. And that's exactly why we're talking about poor this week. Getting to the bottom of pornography, why are we doing it? How it's affecting you and when do you know if you have a porn addiction? It's a real thing. You know, porn is so fascinating to me because I feel like because we're millennials, right? And we were in the world where you had to get magazines and really seek out porn, and now it's so accessible to everyone. It's very fascinating to me because I still think I sometimes think of this mindset of finding port where I feel like now porn finds you. Yeah, it's everywhere. I could be on a random website and then there's some girl shaking her boobs. Like click on the click on me and it's like so ingrained in sex Ed obviously not school sex Ed. But the education that younger generations are receiving is it's kind of like their gateway into sex, where I feel like there's something about it being on a magazine versus a computer screen that makes it a little more detached than if you look at VR. It's really starting to become more and more realistic. It's very interesting. And I don't know, I think it's a little terrifying if I'm gonna be honest. Yeah, yes and no, yes and no. And we talk about this on this episode. It's really how you use pornography. I will emit during the pandemic. Watch a little bit of VR porn in. So for anybody who's not from San Francisco, there's this amazing strip club called gold club, Julie. His favorite place. I'm obsessed. I do not like going to strip clubs at night. I love going to strip clubs during lunch. And that's exactly what gold club serve. They also what they do like a dollar buffet or something. It's $5. All you can eat best fried chicken in the world and sometimes they have tri tip and sometimes they have salmon. The amount of times you tried to get me to go on by lunch break and I like now, no way. And you know, JV team comes out to dance, I love and they're just, they try harder to get your attention. There's less people there. I actually know. Sometimes it gets really crowded. But what I like about gold club is very it's a very egalitarian place. You have people who are tech entrepreneurs all the way to firemen to construction workers down the street because everyone can afford a $5 lunch actually it is the best fucking deal in San Francisco. Nowhere else can you get a $5 a month? No, that's the true story of that. But then is it what ultimately drives you, you like watching like the women dance, right? I love watching the women dance. So when they close down during lockdowns, they offered a VR subscription. Oh, my God. You raised the first to sign out. And I had to have a VR headset and I was curious. It was like ten bucks a month, and it was lovely. You get to go into the privacy suite with these women and they get really up and close and personal and they're very beautiful and they're charming. I don't know, I really enjoyed it and the music was really good. So to me, it was a form of entertainment. It was a form of connection in certain ways because I missed cold club so much. And I would have the best conversations with the dancers, right? Because they see me as completely non intimidating. So they come and sit with me and tell me about their lives, and I tell them about what I do. And then we exchange phone numbers sometimes. It happens. It happens, right? And it's a great time. My guy friends love going to gold club with me because of course. I bet all the dancers come afterwards. I've actually recognized someone at gold club that I a former coworker of mine. Yes, it's true. Only a San Francisco. I feel like we have two really interesting perspectives because I have no judgment to porn, I really don't, but it does nothing for me. I could watch it and it does not turn me on in the slightest. And at all. You know, at all.

00:05:00 - 00:10:03

Whatsoever. There's nothing in it for me, but I know you love it. So I'm curious. What is it? Like strip clubs too. I've been before and I think there's like a novelty factor that's interesting, but it's not on my weekly to do list like it is on yours. Weekly to do list. Trader Joe's. And Google club delay, you would try to you would go weekly if you could. Yeah, if they offered a membership, my punch card would be full girlfriend. But okay, but I am genuinely curious. I know we've talked about it, but what is it that you really like about it? Okay, I've also asked myself the same question. I think it's because first and foremost, I find the female body so extremely sexy. And I love watching female bodies move. It is just the most beautiful thing. And sometimes it turns me on and sometimes I just out of curiosity, I just like to see the different bodies. They're just so many different types. So I'm just curious visually in that way. What turns me on is the fact that there is this act that makes people feel good and I can watch other people feel good. And it's something that we can all get involved with and I do like, you know, I'm nosy. I have binoculars. I love voyeuristic shit. And in fact, that is the category I choose on Pornhub. Lawyer. So I like kind of getting a peek into what other people do because it's such an intimate thing. I'm just so like it kills me that I don't know how other people do it. Do you remember you committed the ultimate faux pas at the sex party we went to? That you told people that you were watching them. Remember we asked if we could be voyeuristic. UA and I were watching. We did get approval by people that read this party to do this, so we were not being creepy, but we were kind of just like watching from this like ledge up top. And there was a one couple in specific that we were watching and they were a beautiful couple and they looked like they were really getting it on in a way that you know was it was sexy. But on the way out, told of this, as we're getting our lift home, they looked mortified because they were not aware that we were watching them. They were absolutely mortified. They probably never went back. Rookie mistake. I was giving them a high 5. I was like, yo, you two were killing it out there. You did so many positions, your bodies are rocking, and they were like, please get the fuck away from us. You know what's so funny? It is really interesting that you said that you like doing it 'cause you like to watch and be voyeuristic because you want to see how other people are doing it. I feel like I never have thought about that. I always think maybe it's like self absorb, but I'm like, I'm doing it so well. No, and maybe if you saw other people, you would think like, oh, I'm not doing it as well as I think. Well, you can't compare yourself. That's the thing. And that's what I've learned from porn is that there are just so many different ways of getting off and bodies are shaped in in so many different ways as well. So the different configurations will yield different results and you just can't compare yourself to other people. I just like the fact that everyone's got this one thing that they can do. Yeah. And get pleasure from it, right? And it's just like this one thing that's behind closed doors and I just want to know what they're doing. Would you want other people to watch you? I thought about this too. I've definitely thought about this. Not really. It doesn't get me off. I don't mind if other people watch me. The idea of it does not get me off. So I don't want people to watch me, but I do like places that I could potentially get caught. I like door. But I wouldn't want to be like, I don't think I would be comfortable at a sex party where it's like people could visually watch like we were doing and doing that. But I think places that I could get caught, but I'm like, 99.9% sure I won't get caught. But there's that .1% that's getting me going. Right, so in non traditional sex places. Like places that you shouldn't be doing. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly so sexy. It's like a thrill, but probably not. In reality. I find that super hot until you get caught. You're like that might change this fantasy for me forever, I'll never want to do it only in my bedroom for dawn. I still remember I have two friends from college who they were dating each other and they were having sex in a car in the middle of the night and the cop came and knocked on the window and she had to cover her boobs and he was like, how old are you guys? And are you okay ma'am? She's like four. Yeah, I mean, talk about totally losing your libido. At that point, I mean, it was super hot until the cops came. Yeah, that's a downer. You know, it's so funny about. I just think this subs us up so well for how we prepared for this interview with that.

00:10:03 - 00:15:07

Yeah, which is our guest today that he is a porn app student's accountability coach. So we go through his whole journey of being addicted to poor and essentially to coming out of it and being abstinent. And teaching other men his ways and seeing how it really impacted his life like any other addiction. But two prep for this. I went I went deep into the Reddit forums, the NoFap Reddit, which I learned as another word for masturbating, which I did not know. Yes, I did not know this until recently. But you a you watched hours and hours of porn, right? Hours. Hours and hours. And it really pushes me off because it takes me longer to find the video I want than it takes me to get off from that video. Yes. So hours isn't correct description. So that sums up your interview. We tell me more about this no fap community in this Reddit post. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just people holding each other accountable, like any other substance type abuse. And it's interesting, we talk about this in the episode. I feel like that's not as commonly understood. You think of AA alcoholics anonymous or NA narcotics anonymous. Those are very ingrained in our society as support networks, but you do not think of porn. Porn is a subset of sex addiction. I think there's been a little more. I've seen movies that kind of have. There was this Netflix movie about these two people that went to a sex addiction group counseling type thing. So I feel like it's making a little more mainstream, but I, you know, it's interesting to me that people do turn to Reddit and places on the Internet to say this stuff because there is a lot of shame associated with it. And I think that's what we really dig into here too is that the shame exists. It exists for the person that's doing the addiction with, especially when it comes to porn and sexuality. There's already like a built in shame there. And then there's a lot of shame if there's a partner in the situation. I could totally see why you would have this am I not good enough mentality, which actually is quite in line with the question we got today. So yeah, you aid you want to read that off. I think it's a really good one. That's super relevant. So this person wrote in and said, I've noticed that my boyfriend has been watching pornography with women who look nothing like me. For example, he loves Asian pornography or pornography with women and I am a white female. Should I be worried that he is looking elsewhere or should I be worried about infidelity or is this really not a big deal? Well, Asian pornography is definitely very popular. Know that. This is a hard one because it goes back to us saying we're not mind readers. So we're inferring or in this situation. You're inferring that your boyfriend is interested in women who don't look like you. I think it's worth a conversation because we don't know if that's the case. People use pornography and very different ways. We've also interviewed people who say that they like to fantasize about people who don't look like their partners as purely as a fantasy. And I think there's something very biological to that. It's, you know, we're curious, we're curious creatures and there's just so many different kinds of people out there. But it could be a problem if there is an addiction of some sort. And if it's taking away from your relationship. So ultimately, we can't be the judge of that, only you and your partner can get an answer and get to an answer at least and all you can do right now is to have an open conversation about it. Yeah, I mean, I think I echo the statement of we don't know why. We don't know why they are looking at this subset of porn. We don't know. It could be the fantasy element that you said or you know, I think it's unrealistic to think that our partners won't find anyone else attractive other than ourselves too, whether they act on it is a different story. And I think people can debate if porn is cheating. And I think that is a conversation that's probably between you and your partner and how you feel about porn. But I think the whole element of, you know, it kind of reminds me of like when someone says, I have a type, just because they have a type, does it mean that they're not attracted to you? And also I've read things about this and you could almost view it as the highest form of flattery that even though they have a type, they still want to be with you. So I think it's all how you spin it and talk to your partner and really see where it's coming from. But I do agree, if you're not, if your partner's not intimate with you and they're only looking at Asian women in this case, then it's a problem. If you're feeling loved and supported and connected, then maybe not so much. It kind of reminds me too of just even outside a poor and I think a lot of people see their partner looking at Instagram models, for instance.

00:15:09 - 00:20:00

Liking photos and what is the line and I think realistically there is all types of women and men in all shapes and sizes all colors of the rainbow, all of that. So I don't think that it's always going to be that your partner only likes one specific look. But again, it comes down to how problematic is this for you. It's always worth the conversation because maybe even just by hearing that it bothers you, it might change their behaviors a bit. Or they might reassure you that it does not mean that they don't find you attractive in any way. Yeah, we have to be really realistic about what's coming up for us. And I think I've been in this situation where I asked am I not enough? Am I not attractive enough? Is my partner going to cheat on me? And that comes from all of my own insecurities in the relationship. And that's what's coming up for me. So in this situation, half that open conversation with your partner, but also tell them what is coming up for you. I think sometimes our partners don't know that this is impacting us in such a negative way. So it's just so important to keep them in the loop, but do not jump to conclusions. You have to collect all the information first. I think it's also important to maybe look at the reverse. Maybe you're not looking at porn because that's not your thing or maybe you are. If you are, then that's even easier to make the comparison. What are you looking at? Does that line up? I've heard of people that look at women that look at lesbian porn and they're not in real life they've never acted on being with another woman. But for whatever reason, the lesbian porn is drawing them in for whatever reason. And maybe that is the fantasy element of it or maybe it's a completely different reason. We don't know. But I think even if you're not a poor and watcher, I kind of think about it as I don't know. I think Channing Tatum is super attractive. Yeah. Most women that you pull would think that he or like Brad Pitt or George Clooney. The people out there are super attractive. Does that mean that I don't think my partners attracted because I think they're attractive? No. You know, it's not a comparison. And also, just 'cause I think they're attractive. Does it mean that I'm well first of all not going to date them because a very reason? They probably could double check me either. And I would never come in contact with them. But hypothetically, hypothetically, let's just say that a perfect world, I could date them. It doesn't mean I would want to because I don't know what their personalities are like. Or I don't know how we would jive as a couple. Just 'cause they're like an attractive person. Does it mean that that's going to be who you choose to be with? Sexuality is very complex. And I think it's important to notice that in your partner. And also by catching them watching this kind of porn makes it seem like very sneaky and there's a lack of trust there. So maybe even go in with the mindset that maybe they're not sneaking around or hiding this from you is just so happens that you are seeing it. So go in with an open mind, have an open conversation about it and also go in with intention of learning more about your partner. Yeah, and some of it just might be habits from long before they met you. Maybe you've given them a new perspective. There's other ways to think about it too. True that. So getting into some announcements here, we have some really good news. So you know a few months ago, we opened up a program called finding your person and it was hot. I mean, it was like people were weightless was completely full and our program sold out. But we are now opening up the program again. So because we saw there were so many people on the wait list still and of course we want everyone to find their people and the other side of this is that we've seen so much great feedback from the current program and people who are in it. So we really want to share this program with more people. We are opening this up only to our listeners and to do that, you just have to go to finding your person dot com, get yourself on the wait list, and you'll be informed right away as soon as ticket sales open up. Yep, and we just wrapped up our first cohort. So that's part of why we're reopening this is that we both have the capacity and I think upfront. We wanted to see, you know, first of all, how it went and then how did the results happen for people? And we've seen just astonishing results whether it's people that are really looking at eating in a completely different way or have a budding relationship that they're really trying to make sure it goes to that next level, or you know, even doing the personal development. A lot of people have said that I was maybe aware that some of this stuff existed for me, but until now I didn't really see how much it got in the way.

00:20:01 - 00:25:11

So I think that's been really great to see people having those breakthrough moments because you know Rome wasn't built in a day. Sometimes finding your person takes time and a lot of times it's understanding yourself is that first step. So we definitely want to open it up again. We have some additional capacity. Again, it's just two of us, so it's going to be limited, but also the holidays are around the corner. Cuffing seasons around the corner. I think we want to make sure we give back and give this wonderful program to as many of you that want to partake in it. Again, that website is finding your person dot com and we'll be putting up some more details on our Instagram as well. So you can feel free to DM us there if you have any questions. Awesome. Okay, let's do a couple of quick messages from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by better help. We attainable our huge fans of therapy and better help can match you with your own licensed therapist and connect you in a safe and private online environment. Me, for example, I was able to start communicating with my therapist in less than 48 hours. It was so quick. Now better help is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. And it's more affordable than traditional offline counseling. Their license professionals specialize in everything from dating trauma, stress, anxiety, trauma with a big T, depression, grief, you name it. They have someone who's an expert in that. We a dateable wish for all of you to live a happy, healthy life. And that's why it's a listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by visiting our sponsor at better help dot com slash dateable. Join over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health. Again, that's better help spelled HELP dot com slash DA te BLE. Okay, let's get into it with Matt from porn to purpose. Porn porn porn. Have we dissected porn on our show yet Julie? I don't think we have. We've had a porn star by cleaner. But we have got dissected habits around porn and how it impacts sex in real life. Implications of pornography and there are a lot of implications, more than you think. So this is why we're going to have this conversation with Matt sinkovits, who is a porn abstinence accountability coach. Yes, he's 38 years old from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and he's dating someone but haven't defined the relationship. So here's a backstory about Matt. He had a compulsive relationship with porn for over 20 plus years, ordained Buddhist minister and mindfulness counselor now and founder and coach at porn to purpose. He's coaching men in porn addiction recovering. Now, he's very passionate about his mission to guide men in ending their habit of watching porn. So they can reignite the passion in their own relationships and marriages and can be a better role model for their children and just people around them. So Matt, welcome to dateable. It's nice to have you here. Julie and ue. Thank you for having me today. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Yes. We're so excited for this topic. And I'm not making a joke out of this, but it is true. I haven't watched porn in a while, so I did my research. Well, you know, you gotta stay up to date 'cause, you know, I have to go through all the categories, what are the new categories that are out there? I'm actually surprised by the categories I was drawn to. You know, things change, and I'm evolving. So my pornography watching habits are evolving as well. But for you, Matt, what was your first introduction to porn? I think most boys age 11, 12, 13, something like that, maybe finding something around the house, you know, if a friend would introduce you to a magazine or a videotape or a DVD, you know, I'm like, I'm at the age where I really didn't have Internet in the house until I was like high school pretty much, I was almost graduating. So for me, it was kind of like old school. You know, if I could catch a NC 17 movie or something like that, it was like a treat. Scramble channels on cable. Like the fuzzy spice channel. That was a real fuzzy spice. I feel like in today's day and age, though, the access is just so much easier even. So pretty much like every probably young boy or even girl. Don't want to discriminate on who's going to look at poor. And it's so accessible this day and age. Yeah, that's the trouble with it. It's like a touch of a finger, you know, away. Yeah, and that's wild to me because, you know, I had to look up the definition of pornography. I love looking at definitions because you have your own way of thinking about it, but the definition of pornography is that it is different from erotica. So erotica consists of the portrayal of sexuality with high art aspirations focusing also on feelings and emotions for pornography and their emphasized this that it involves the depiction of acts in a sensational manner with the entire focus on the physical act, so as to arouse quick intense reactions.

00:25:12 - 00:30:02

So it's transactional. Pornography does not involve feelings, and I'm glad that they made that distinction. When you were exposed to the spicy, fuzzy channel Matt, what was pornography for you? Well, why was it so interesting? Well, I think it has to do. I mean, you know, as a young kid, as a young boy, it's just it's an exciting, you know? Arousing subject, you know, kind of like first, you know, being young, exploring your sexuality for the first time. For the first time, maybe haven't really experienced a woman or a female at that time. So it's kind of your introduction to sex. And you're also kind of like as a kid, you know, viewing something that's kind of like bad and risque. So it's just there's this element of excitement that comes with it as well. So how did it go for you from something that you just happened to come across and watch or see till like a compulsion? Yeah, that's interesting. I was just, I just did a show last night I was talking about it with the brothers that interviewed me. And dissecting that as well. And it's hard to say, you know, it's one of those things that it meets certain needs. You know, I was like, for myself, I was a young I was kind of like a shy kid. I was a little bit maybe socially backward. I was more shy around women. So for me, I think it was a way to explore sexuality, understand sexuality, maybe get that connection that I wasn't getting outwardly. I think it was a means of that. And also porn was we've identified that just like drugs, alcohol, cigarettes. It becomes a way to kind of meet certain needs. You know, just like if you find yourself standing in front of the refrigerator at 12 a.m. and you're not hungry, you know, you're there, there's something else that you're looking for. If you've ever smoked cigarettes, a lot of times, when you smoke, you just you're picking up that cigarette because you're looking for a fix for some other reason. You know? So for me, I think I developed this emotional dependency on it. And it becomes a way of kind of meeting all these different needs, which oftentimes are very unconscious for us. And it's tied into our sexuality, you know? So it's a tricky thing to untangle once it kind of becomes a regular part of your life. And you say connection, which is interesting to me. Okay, so you started off as a young boy. You didn't have access to the Internet. I am assuming eventually this progressed to watch a porn online. What type of porn were you like interacting with? Was it more passively watching or were you talking to cam girls and doing things that were more interactive? Yeah, I never did the interactive thing. I never got that far. I never even got to do like this is probably gonna sound late. What's the one that everyone's really you could be fans? Only fans. Yeah, I never even did that, but I never really did the interactive thing for me. It was kind of more passive. I remember when I was younger, erotic stories were arousing to me and yeah, then just like normal porn, I think, you know, just viewing stuff, pictures, at first, and then on to videos, you know? So how did the connection form? When you said you felt like a connection, what does that mean to you? With porn? Well, you know, as human beings, we all desire connection, you know, with other humans. That's like a part of our makeup, I think. So I think if we're missing that in our lives, if we're lonely or disconnected or we don't know how to connect or work, maybe awkward in our abilities or desire to connect and I think maybe we use substitutes to connect. I think people use drugs. I've qualified like an addictive relationship with porn as a drug. People use drugs as a form of connection. In the work that we do, you know, like one of the ideas is that the opposite of addiction is connection. So whether it be drugs alcohol or food, it's like we're attempting to connect with something through that media. Maybe it's with ourselves and maybe it's we're looking to create that, which we're not getting from others. So yeah, to connect with others. So some would argue that pornography is a good way for people to start exploring their sexuality, especially in our culture, where we don't actually openly talk about sex yet, you know, in sex Ed, we're not seeing pornography. We're just talking about how to not have sex. So what would you say to that? Do you think that there are some benefits to pornography? Yeah, that's interesting. I take a very kind of like moderate stance on it. I don't take a hard line approach, you know, that maybe some would that say, it's all bad or it's all wrong. I think there can be a healthy relationship with it potentially. I often liken it to any potentially addictive substance, like alcohol from, for instance, I've never had like an addictive tendency toward alcohol or drugs. I've been able to do those things kind of casually. But some people like one sip of alcohol and it's chaos, you know? So I don't think there's like a clear definite definitive answer for everyone around that. I think it probably could be a healthy way to explore your sexuality. I've talked to a lot of guys who are like, yeah, you know what? I enjoyed it when I was a kid, or I still enjoy it from time to time, but it's not a regular thing. It's not something I go too often. A lot of times couples enjoy it within the relationship, but it can be a healthy thing. But for some people, it becomes toxic because we develop this bond in this dependency on it.

00:30:02 - 00:35:06

You know, sex addiction is like a very real category, you know? So it just falls into that sex addiction category. So I would say, yes, it could probably be a healthy way to explore your sexuality. But for some people, it just has this really toxic kind of nature. I mean, I could see it like dating is hard, right? And having sex is hard. So I could see it being an easier way to you were saying to get those needs met. Either personally or through other menu work with like how has it gotten in the way of people dating lives? I think massively because you get into this kind of loop. I mean, even for myself, even in my 20s and stuff like that, and this was when I kind of began to be aware that it was like an issue. It'd be easier or more satisfying to stay home. You know, in front of the computer than it would be to go out on a Friday night because everything you've got is everything like your wildest fantasies are all right there, you know? It's really easy to go that and to get dependent on that. And for a lot of guys, especially if you've got a regular relationship with it, it has this kind of draining effect. It fogs the mind it makes you feel not very good about yourself. So that kind of has the cyclical effect of make maybe you use poor and you masturbate. You're like all these feelings of shame and all the stuff that often times comes up around it. Come in and that just kind of like keeps you not wanting to go out. And so you just go back to the board. Just like any cycle of drug use, you know, it's kind of like you. There's just this repetitive nature about it, which keeps you in that cycle. Because it is easier to stay inside, you know, you can grab that dopamine hit really easy. You can get that connection. You can feel oftentimes desired. You can feel significant. There's this aspect of stimulation that occurs. So it meets a lot of needs. Like there is that side of it. So really easy to get stuck in that loop. And then when you're down, it's just easy to stay down, I think. In your line of work, do you see that there is a correlation between porn addiction and sex addiction? Oh, yeah, it's in the same category. So whenever we do the work in our curriculum that we use with the men, we kind of generally we focus in on the porn addiction, but the overall umbrella is sex addiction 100%. Okay, so then for yourself, did your porn addiction manifest into a sex addiction as well? No, I think it was, I think, generally speaking, thankfully, I've always been like pretty healthy in terms of like regular like human sexual connection. That was never really an issue for me. I was like acting out, I think and unhealthy ways. I think, you know, as a youngster, I was more promiscuous for sure, like many of us are, you know. So maybe there was some unhealthy qualities about that. But no, for me it was really just the porn seemed to be the problematic part for me. Didn't like get in the way of your sex life because I've read places that if you masturbate to watch, you might not like actual sex because it's a different motion. I'm speaking at hetero heterosexual terms in those relationships. What has been your experience with porn seeping into actual real life sex? Yeah, I mean, porn, again, and I'll say any potentially toxic habit of behavior has a way of affecting all areas of our life, you know? And for me, definitely one of those was my relationships. And again, as I grew, I think an awareness as I grew in consciousness as I begin to wake up to the negative or adverse effects of this, I began to see these things more and more. But yeah, you know, it creates a degree of secrecy, oftentimes within the relationship. I would say in most cases, there's that degree of secrecy and for me it kind of created the sexual awkwardness that would kind of come up. Maybe if you're using porn frequently and then you go to engage and have regular sex. So you just kind of feel like a little bit uncomfortable in your own skin. That was kind of like my experience and the best way I could explain that. Or maybe you kind of know in the back of your mind, you're hiding something from your partner or you just don't really feel like you're in real integrity. And then I think the most obvious forefront issue would be like, if you're using pornography regularly in your masturbating regularly, it's like when evening comes or whatever time of day and your partner wants to connect. You know, you may be disinterested or just not present or just disconnected. You know what I mean? It's like men operate a little differently than women. You know, oftentimes like men after orgasm like need a break oftentimes, you know what I mean? So if you're like doing that all day long or regularly, some guys have a very frequent relationship with porn, then when it comes time to be connected and intimate, like the desire is oftentimes not there. So there is something to be said with the way pornography is used and how it affects you, right? Because I think in my experience, my own personal experience as well as talking to friends, there are three different ways people use porn. One is reflection. So reflection of reality, what they experience to is fantasy and three is novelty, something that they've never seen, they've never tried as just purely for the novel idea of it of the three buckets, which one do you think is the most dangerous if you were to be addicted to pornography in that category? So I wrote this down because I'm like, this is interesting. So it's reflection. And then the second one is to see fantasy and novelty. Okay. Well not being too familiar with those terms, I think the fantasy would be the most problematic. Because you're just off in another world and maybe creating scenarios and engaging with scenarios that aren't very realistic. And that's one of the things that I hear from women and I'm hearing is becoming much more of a problem with younger kids.

00:35:06 - 00:40:00

These young lawyers are being trained up with these really aggressive sexual ideas. They're in that fantasy world. So when it comes time to like, you know, engage sexually. That's kind of what they're acting out of. Living in this fantasy world, not grounded in reality, I think would be very problematic potentially. Like missionary is just not doing it. Yeah, yeah. So wait, you wait, what's reflection? What does that mean? It reflects your reality. So some people, some people, you know, it depends on my mood. I like to see this too. I like to see the woman who look kinda like me and maybe she's doing it with a guy that kinda looks like someone I know. And then they're in positions that I would do. And it reflects reality, so it's kind of like, oh, I get to see a little bit of myself in this. But what you are saying is in the fantasy, it kind of warps people's perception what sex is, especially for those younger kids who may not have had much experience. And I don't know if you've seen the show euphoria, have you seen this show? It's about high school kids. And it's coming of age, but also just the way they navigate around sexuality. And there was a scene where this very romantic kid is trying to have sex with his girlfriend and all he knows to do is throw her onto the bed, face down and start just like doggy styling her. And she's like, what are you doing? He's like, do you not like this? Because this is what I see in pornography. So with that image of mind, did porn affect the way you have sex in a negative way. For your connection with other people. I don't think it I don't think I had an adverse effect on me at a negative way in terms of in terms of the way that I engage. Maybe it gave me some ideas around things, but I don't think it was ever unhealthy in that regard. But I would say, after kind of hearing your description of these three things, like the reflection, okay, I get that. The fantasy, I think I get that. And then the novelty piece. I'd like to speak to that if I could, because I think maybe I have some suspicion around what that is. That is another area that I see is potentially problematic for the young people out there and we're porn could potentially take us. Like, especially in today's modern day of ever escalating like porn genres like UA, you were out there kind of checking out genres and stuff. Yes, genres. That's a good word. It's weird. It gets weird today, you know? Gets weird. If you want to Pornhub and looked at the categories, like it goes way far out and it goes weirder and weirder and weirder. Wait, what's like a weird one you've seen? Or I don't want to say weird because, you know, it could be someone's cup of tea. Exactly. No. I think this is weird because I don't think this is right. This category is very hot. It's step siblings. Oh, steps. It's a huge one. And it's a very popular category. Right. And that in real life would be just wrong. It's just wrong. Step, you know, there's like animals. There's like the parental role thing, you know? Just like, it's just like whatever. You know there's like old young like you name it and it just gets weirder and weirder. Anime is a big one that I never kind of go. A lot of anime. You know, a lot of cartoons. There's like the she mail thing, and again, I don't want to because some people, maybe that's just their thing. So respect. But I would say that's one of the dangers today is because port is like a drug. And with a drug, you know, it's like, you need more and more. You need like a harder and harder to fix to kind of get that fix, you know? So I think because of that, because the demand like the genres are getting weirder and weirder, like more and more bizarre, I think it's getting more aggressive and violent in nature to kind of hit those arousal mechanisms. And oftentimes what people are engaging and I think they're engaging with it for the novelty. And oftentimes what we hear from guys in my experience was like, now I'm watching stuff that really doesn't even line with my true preferences and tastes, you know? It's just what I need to kind of get off. Well, I think especially when you're younger, it's so important to have those good sexual experiences early on because I do think they shape your outlook of what sex is and how you view it as you get older and older. So I could see this being really detrimental to one, you know, like the people you're saying that are watching the porn that are like, is this even what I like? They think it is. Then also the people in the receiving end. I was thinking about the example you gave UA about euphoria. That would be horrible if that was your first sexual experience. I would never want to have sex again if that's what someone did to it. Yeah. So I guess Matt, how did it show up then in your relationship? Can you give us an example of a relationship you were in where you started to think this is problematic? Yeah, just very, you know, very it was probably a relationship a great relationship that I was in probably in my mid to late 20s and great girl and yeah, form was a regular part of my life. So, you know, I was using daily, oftentimes. So, you know, like maybe I'd be by myself or she'd be away during the day or something like that. I would use formed and then so she would come home in the evening or we'd be time to go to bed and I had already done my thing for the day. You know, I was just kind of either one, I was so intrigued by the stuff on the screen that just like regular sex wasn't as interesting. Or I had already kind of spent my energy elsewhere, so to speak.

00:40:00 - 00:45:10

So did you ever tell her? That's what was going on because I could just see this as the woman in the position being like the sky's never interested in sex, or he can never get off. I would think I was doing something wrong because where my mind would go. Yeah, I would think so too. So no, I don't think I don't think we ever brought it up. We never really talked about it. I also, I'm not sure that I was that clear that it was that big of an issue at that time. So I might have not had the awareness to bring it up, you know? As I reflect back upon that and I consider the lack of sex in that relationship, I know that there's a portion of that was definitely due to me and my disinterest at time. Was that what ended it ultimately or was there other reasons? I think it was one of those relationships that just kind of like the flame romantically discounted died. I gotta say this girl and I were still really good friends. We have a great friendship and we still stay in touch regularly. So it was one of those relationships. We had our season and then we just kind of evolved into just like a friendship. And then at the end of it, we were just like, we are great friends. We loved each other. And we had this kind of mutual breakup, and we just kind of went our separate ways, but we were able to maintain the relationship, which I think is ideal. Yeah, I could see though some of it like if the sex is out, though, then it becomes a friendship. Exactly. Yeah, and you know, for me, that was part of my thing. I was like, I really desired healthy, you know, passionate intimacy and relationships. And I knew porn affected that. So for me, that was a big driver to be able to really experience that high quality connection within relationships. Let's actually add to that a little bit. I want to know what was the tipping point for you to say I have a problem. I'm going to try to solve this problem or navigate around it, and then going all the way to now I want to help other men with the same problem. Yeah, for me, it was just I was in my 30s. You know, lasted from my teens into my 30s and I just kind of began to have this awareness that it was something that I had to hide in my life. I would be really conscious of the way it adversely affected me, you know? And it was something that I had like decided like multiple times. Like I'm like, I'm done, I don't want to do that anymore. You know, I don't want to go back, but I continued to return. And I was also kind of moving more into entrepreneurship. I was moving more into service and feeling called to serve and move my work into the service of others. And I kind of felt like I had the skeleton in my closet unresolved. And I felt like it was like literally inhibiting me from moving into the work that I was supposed to be doing and the life that I was supposed to be living. So I think all the adverse effects emotionally mentally, spiritually physically, that just kind of like being done with that and having wanted to quit but not being able to and continue to return. Forms one of those things that most guys try and resolve on their own, most of the time, you know, for a long time before they realize it's an issue. And then third, you know, my whole organization is called porn to purpose. I was feeling called to live my life in greater integrity and greater nobility and greater purpose. And I felt porn was like a spiritual ceiling to me, I felt of sorts. And I couldn't engage in the work the way I felt I needed to and wanted to with it still present in my life. So that was it. And may I continue? Yeah. I'll keep going. So what I ended up doing was I had been heavily involved in personal spiritual development and I've always hired coaches. I've worked with a lot of coaches and mentors. So I was like, coach, you know? And so I ended up dropping a couple grand on a group coaching program and I worked with a coach and I got into community and accountability and did the deep work and I did the deep work that was really required. A lot of people try and quit and they just kind of try and bare knuckle it. But what's really required is like a transformation internally. And we have to learn to turn the lights on and see these needs that we're attempting to beat by going to porn. And we have to recognize that it oftentimes where emotionally immature as men and maybe I go to porn because when I'm feeling distressed or when I'm feeling anxious or what I'm feeling sad or when I'm feeling lonely. But the healthy thing is to learn to sit with these emotions and be with these emotions and maybe this discomfort and then meet those needs in a healthier way. So I had to kind of go in and do that deeper work and do some healing and help that little boy that was still inside of me grow up, you know? You know what's interesting the way you're describing it sounds like the deeper effects of drug and alcohol abuse. And addiction. But in those worlds, getting help and support is very normal. Those are establishments that have been around for decades. But you don't think of getting help for porn. I could see why people would just be like, I can take care of this. Why do you think that isn't the right approach? Well, you know, I've been thinking about that a lot lately and I'm like, I should pose a question on Facebook. You know, like everybody seems to have some sort of issue one way or the other or some level of embarrassment or shame or awkwardness around sexuality like it's very common to kind of not feel that comfortable around our sexuality. And I don't know if it's normal. It's just like a part of being human or I don't know if it's like societally programmed into us, but for whatever reason, there's just a lot of shame around it and sex is oftentimes not a subject that is comfortable to talk about. There's a lot of embarrassment people might laugh at you and you might feel like a weirdo. You might feel like a creep. I felt like a weirdo and a creep, you know? That was another. I don't want to feel like that. And so yeah, people just do not feel at liberty to explore these things oftentimes. So how do clients find you? At what point are they at in their porn addiction for them to seek help? So oftentimes, so I run a pretty large online Facebook community, a private community for men.

00:45:10 - 00:50:07

So we get men into community and we get ready to accountability and we have these conversations and we provide a space in a four for men to get in and start having this conversation maybe for the first time that maybe they've never shared with anybody else. Maybe this has hidden the darkness the entirety of their life. And now they can finally start bringing it forward and recognize I'm not the only one out there. That's typically how I connect with my clients, either that or a referral. I'm quite active on social media and stuff. And oftentimes, the guys that come to me and do the best are the ones where it's all on the line. You know, I find that guys that are like fathers and husbands, their families, their relationships are on their line. They're not their disconnected in the relationships they're not intimate often times. They feel like a fraud in terms of a father and a husband. And so they got a lot on the line. And that's typically the guys that show up and are ready to commit to the work and actually do the work necessary to create the transformation. Well, that makes a lot of sense. I could totally see that. I definitely want to dig into who's coming to you a little more because I think this is interesting. We keep saying guys and we think about men. Do you ever see women coming to you or facing this challenge also? Yeah, I do. So of course, not as not nearly as much, right? Because maybe I've been learning that. Women, many women have a relationship with form, but I think guys and girls are just different. You know, I think we have a different experience with, you know, guys are very visual and I'm not sure exactly what it is. But I think it's like women seem to like the UA was saying, you know, she likes the positions and these kind of different things. And maybe intimacy and connection maybe is more intriguing. But for guys, it's not really about that. As you mentioned, it's transactional. It's about the act, you know? It's about the penis in the vagina. You know, in the orgasm. So I think men and women are a little bit different, probably in their experience, the relationship with port, but I know there's a lot of women that have issues with it. I know there's forums out there of women that have issues with it. I'm not sure if the female experience is. But I do get women that reach out to me. Oftentimes the women that reach out to me though are inquiring about their husbands because they don't say for their partner. You know? Yeah. I have had some women reach out to me that are just kind of dealing with general sex addiction stuff. And I have a lot of women raised their hand and be like, I like porn. It's a regular part of my life for me and I'm cool with it. But I see that is the double standard of society because women can proudly say that they like porn. It's like a cool thing. And I don't know any women who hide the fact that they watch porn from their partners. It's like let's watch it together. Or I watch porn today. I mean, I just texted my partner today. I was like, I watch porn for an hour or two, what do you think about that? And he's like, cool. But for men, there is shame tie to it. I don't actually know where that comes from. But I think I'm guessing that's what's beating into the addiction. It's the I shouldn't be doing this, right? Yeah, for sure. And I'm not sure again if that's like because maybe something inside of us like just says it's not quite right, or maybe it's something we've been told and it's a story that we have, you know. Okay, let's hold that thought as we take a quick moment for some messages. This episode is brought to you by pros, most of you have probably heard me talk about pros, the world's most personalized hair care, and I want to update you all on the incredible results I've been seeing since using my customized products, which include a personalized shampoo, conditioner, and appreci mask. My hair is now noticeably smoother. And I used to have really frizzy hair and now it's much easier to tame. I personally really love the pre shampoo mask because while it smells incredible and it just makes my hair feel even softer. To get started with the personalization process, you take an in depth hair quiz with questions around where you live, your diet and your lifestyle. And they even take into account stress. By analyzing over 85 personal factors prose determines a unique blend of ingredients to treat your exact concerns. Prose is a healthy haired regimen with your name all over it. Take your free in depth hair consultation and get 15% off your first order today, go to prose dot com slash dateable that's PRO SE dot com slash D ATE ABL E for your free in depth hair consultation and 15% off. Support for dateable is brought to you by in scipio. In scipio offers legendary protection for all of your devices from phones to AirPods, or tablets. They obsess over their tech to protect yours. It's like in scipio's line of products was made for me because with their phone cases, my phone is protected from drops as high as 14 feet. The cases are also wireless charging compatible and there's a lifetime warranty. So they've got you covered. I have the organic core clear case, which is made up of a 100% compostable materials that reduces landfill waste I naturally reentering the environment from where it started. All the packaging is made out of a 100% recyclable materials with eco friendly water based ink. Now for data listeners only, we have a special offer. These incredible cases are now available for purchase at insipio dot com and you can use the code dateable for 20% off.

00:50:08 - 00:55:02

That's IN CI PIO dot com and use a code DA te a BLE for 20% off. So you said the people that come to that have a lot on the line, I could totally see that that are in relationships that are partner does not like this habit. Do you ever see the flip side of people that just don't have any sexual relationship experience that have gotten caught up in porn? Like we were talking about earlier, it's easier. It's a way to connect or do you find those people aren't coming to you as much because if they don't see it as a problem. Yeah, those like the single guy, the bachelor, you know, he might recognize it's an issue, but he might not have the incentive in his life to really do something about it yet, you know? Either until he's in that relationship or you know, he desires to be in that relationship. But I do get single men that come in another category of men that oftentimes works that well is the impact driven entrepreneur kind of like myself. You know that that knows he's called to be more and to do more of this world and he knows that porn is out of integrity out of alignment for him. So he wants to get it resolved so we can step into live the life he's supposed to. Exactly. Interesting. We were kind of talking about it earlier. It's such a vicious cycle for these people that don't have a lot of experience. This is basically hindering them from getting that experience. And I love what you said earlier that the opposite of addiction is connection. And that's basically what you're not getting. If we have listeners out there that are in that position that they feel like dating is just so hard and I can't do it. And this is better than nothing essentially. What advice would you have for them to help them get out of that cycle and start connecting with actual human beings? No, are we assuming that maybe these users would be like porn user these people would be porn users or is this just general? Yeah, let's say they're porn users just because of this topic. Yeah, I mean, poor to purpose, right? That's the whole kind of that's the idea behind the work that we do. And that really spoke to my journey. For me, it really comes down to Tapping into a vision for your life. You've got to wake up to the issues that porn is creating in your life and the way that it impacts your life. And then we get clear on what we want to experience. Like, what do we want in our relationships? What do we want in our work? You know, what do we want? And maybe our spiritual connection our relationship with God, what do we want in our physical health and our sense of vitality? And we recognize that poor and affects all these areas. So for me, it's like getting to this point where I want something different, you know? And just kind of recognizing that there's more out there, but that really is that purpose that vision that why it's such a crucial piece in the long-term journey because you've got to have something that's really incentivized you to make the change. And with that, I would love to know only as much as you can share of the clients that you've had because I can see some people saying, like, how bad could it actually get? Can you tell us how bad it could actually get? Can you give us a new stories? Yeah, I mean, I think I could give you generalities and what I commonly see. You know, I commonly see, you know, 40, 50 year old men who have had porn addictions for 30, 40 years since age since 13, maybe it started off as just being like a wild young man and being very promiscuous and going to a lot of strip clubs and maybe prostitutes and stuff like that. Maybe this general womanizing, but then it kind of gets dark or maybe they're in a marriage or a relationship, and it becomes something that, again, they use as their outlet. It's like their go to. And it becomes something that secretive and hidden. And then ultimately it becomes like this really disruptor within the relationship. There's hiding. There's lying. There's secrecy. There's jealousy. You know, there's lack of intimacy. A big issue for a lot of guys out there really prevalent is like ED issues. Issues in the bedroom and ability to perform sexually. So that really has an impact on a man's sense of self esteem and self worth. And so the worst case scenarios is like children coming across dad, you know, masturbating in front of the computer, you know? Kids, kids finding, that's porn stash. The husband and wife haven't had been intimate for years, you know? A lot of lying, the man's the husband's connecting with women online, but neglecting his partner in the worst cases, these sexual tastes. They evolve and they evolve and some people navigate into really dark places and also illegal places. And that's another that's another direction that can be really problematic. So it can get really dark and really low. So do you see women wanting divorce and stuff or as a hitting those points? 100% women disgusted with their husbands. Especially when they catch wind of oftentimes these really extreme genres that men, you know? Yeah. I could totally see that. How do men share this with their significant others? You said that you could have never shared it with your ex, did you ever tell her at any point? She knows no friends. I never really shared it. I never felt like it was well, she like knows now, obviously, because we're in touch and she knows that I do this work exactly right.

00:55:02 - 01:00:01

She's like all these years later it all makes sense. Yeah, it's really difficult. Again, there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of guilt around it. Again, it can be just like embarrassing to bring up, but also like, you know, maybe then how you're perceived as a husband as a partner like a guy that can't get his stuff together, you know? I think that's what stops a lot of guys from getting the help. One, they don't feel like they can bring it up. But two, like how do you get your partner on board to say this is such a big problem that I need to invest in this coaching program and I need to I need to take some money out of savings and do this work and it's that bad, you know? So I think there's a pride aspect of it as well. I think that's a good way to put it. And how can partners meet their partner if they did come to them with something like this? I can imagine it really difficult. I could totally see that. It could. And I think a lot of women feel as though there's like a degree of infidelity, you know? And so a lot of women oftentimes feel jealous or betrayed, you know? Angry. And so but I think the best thing you can do because it is a difficult thing to bring up is be understanding to be loving to listen and if the man is sincere and he really wants to bring it up and wants to take action like support him and taking action because it'll drastically improve the quality of the relationship and certainly his life. Well I could see the shame coming in for the partner, too, like this. Oh, yeah. Definitely see that. For sure. Yeah. And then for yourself in your own experience with porn addiction, do you still experience relapse or is it like are you fully cured of it? I don't even know what the right vocabulary for this. Yeah, so I'm totally abstinent from porn. Like, for me, again, it's one of those things that I don't think I could do or I even have a desire to do kind of like casually because it becomes problematic. And I just don't like the way it makes me feel, you know? The way it affects my sense of integrity. Plus, I really feel like because I do serve a community and because I serve men in this work, I feel like I need to be the model of that and demonstrate the example. So for me, I am fully abstinent and I don't think a casual relationship would be would be ideal. Exactly. But how do you how do you protect yourself from everything that's out? Like on Netflix. That show sex life. It's not pornography, but it might be, right? So I'm a vigilant of vigilant and it's like be careful little eyes what you see. You know, like I grew up in church, and that was like a children's song, you know. But for me, I just live with a high sense of integrity around it. I've got COVID and eyes, which is an accountability software. I've got accountability software on my computers on my devices. And I've got people that will be accountable to this work. Even on Facebook or Instagram, if I see a girl that's really like flaunting herself and being really sexual, you know, of course, sometimes I'll click on the picture, but if I've noticed that, like, unfollow the girl oftentimes, you know? I tried to really clean up my environment in our work we have this whole process we call it clean up the field and it's really to create a more pure environment. So our minds aren't going there in the first place because it is sex cells in its everywhere. You know, so I don't really watch stuff like that on Netflix, you know? And like on YouTube, I've got the parental controls setting switch. So I don't get really adult suggestions on there. And on YouTube on Facebook, I unfollow. And I've got accountability stuff in place. So I've just put measures in place to create a more kind of like wholly environment. So I'm just not really going there as often. And if I did relapse, it would be hard to look my guys in the eyes honestly. So that holds you to a very high degree of accountability. Yeah, well, it definitely reminds me of like substance abuse. And that's why people like forever will stay with groups, right? For the accountability. And this is its addiction isn't like a one and done thing. It's something that can last an entire lifetime even if you're a recovery. I feel like we always hear of how detrimental substance abuse can be to relationships. Do you feel like porn abuse is in the same category or do you think it differs in a different way? Well, I mean, obviously, like, substance abuse, you know, you might be out of your mind and do something crazy, you know what I mean? So probably not going to do that with poor. You might spend a bunch of money. You know what I mean? In the prostitute or online or something like that, I'm sure that's a problem. But I would say it's different in that regard, but in the way that it could be damaging and toxic and disruptive, I think it's absolutely relevant to the conversation. And I just wanted to say also I recall UA's request. So for me, it's still like a daily choice. You know, I do think what I find is I'm practiced now and making the healthy choice. Like I don't really go there. My mind doesn't really go there like it used to. I think of reprogram my mind in many ways. And I've shifted my identity. I'm no longer that man. But I still have to be vigilant and I still have to be mindful of stuff to be watchful and cautious. And I still get triggered. The thought still crosses my mind, but I think it's like the less we water certain plants in the garden. It's like they begin to die, and we can allow new things to grow, you know? Right.

01:00:02 - 01:05:00

I definitely see what you're saying about the dangers of substance abuse. That isn't there as much because it's not mind altering. Right. But I do think what I'm hearing is that a lot of the fallouts of relationships can be similar, the sneaking around the lack of trust all of those aspects of how it impacts. I guess, now that you're not doing this, how has this changed your current relationship that you're in? Either in terms of just how you show up presently and that also like your sex life. World's different, you know? Like, porn, I think, generally speaking, robs us of our power as men, you know, especially if there's a lot of masturbation involved because like when a man ejaculates, there's that energetic kind of drain that occurs. You know, it's like the rest period that's often occurs. So I think what I meant is constantly doing that and it's constantly out of integrity. If it's a problem for him, it just drains us of our power, and we're just weaker men as a result of it, you know? So for me, again, I recognize that form was affecting every aspect every area of my life. My relationships, my spirituality, my work, my business, my sense of purpose, my income. In my health, like my energy, clarity of mind, you know, like, you don't really, you don't go to the gym as much, you know? You're not as ambitious. You don't have that drive. So for me, now the relationship that I am in, you know, I'm clear, I'm powerful. I'm strong. I'm an integrity. I think I'm honest. The sex is great. You're powerful. You're connected, you know? It's like, it's like the porno that you're like, you know, fantasizing about all your life. It's like happening, you know what I mean? It's like good, you know, so. Yeah, really high quality in that regard. And yeah, just a more powerful present intentional man, you know? We kind of glossed over this in your intro, but you are an ordained Buddhist minister. Right. What does that mean? What does that entail? There's many pieces to my story, obviously, but like when I was around age 25 or so, I was in this really dark, depressed place and I was like suicidal. And I was really dealing with a lot of obsessive tormented thinking. I was really unhappy with just a crap going on in my head. I didn't like myself. I was just in a dark place, you know? So I was looking for a refuge and I found mindfulness in meditation, you know? And that ultimately led me to Buddhism. And I'd really dug deeply into that. I grew up in a very Christian household and I got really into Buddhism and mindfulness and meditation, not as a religion as much as a way of life and a philosophy for a living. And a philosophy of well-being. And I ended up really connected with the community and following working with the teacher and I ended up training with my teacher and I went through a seminary because I wanted to deepen my own studies. And through that work, I kind of woke up to this realization that I wanted to do this work full time and be of service to others. And I didn't. When I started doing the Buddhist stuff and I went to seminary and I went to do my minister training, I wasn't thinking I was going to be doing this work around pornography, but I felt like a calling of my life. And you know, ultimately I went on when I grew up I was doing missions work and prison work and stuff like that with my parents and the Christian faith. So as a Buddhist minister, I ended up doing prison work and leading meditation in prisons and then going and doing chaplaincy working in hospitals. I just did a year residency as a Buddhist chaplain in a hospital. So that's kind of how I ended up there because I was just in a dark place and ended up digging deeply into my studies and then going in deeper with my teacher and wanted to go through the seminary program becoming more dean. I think that's so fascinating because a lot of addiction isn't escape, right? And you've been able to find a way to funnel that with mindfulness in a way that connects to you opposed to escaping reality and allows you to serve that purpose. And I think that is a good way to segue to takeaways. I think what I've gotten from this is that, you know, like any other addiction, porn becomes problematic when it interferes with your day to day in the life you want to live and your purpose and connections to others. I think all the basic human needs that we have when those get sideswiped because we're so focused on something else and it becomes an addiction. I think we think of addiction as you know, the big ones like drug and alcohol, but really addiction can be anything that really gets in the way of you living the life you want to be living. And like you said, there's always a thin line of some people can look at porn. And be completely unaffected by it and then others, it gets in the way of them having meaningful lives in relationships. So it's all about staying true to yourself and where you want to go. And I love what we were saying with even if you're not there yet. Having that vision and staying committed to the vision is so important to living the life you want and be able to recognize what's getting in your way. Now that Julie nailed it. I think it's really empowering to know that we have control over our lives and what we choose to see in our environment.

01:05:01 - 01:10:00

And the fact that you cleaned up your environment just shows that it is possible, I think everything in this world is whatever you put out there, you get it back. So if you put out that you don't want this sort of distraction or toxicity in your life, then you don't get that back. And we have the power to clean that up. I also think there is something to be said about how we use the tools or entertainment that's available to us just like dating apps, right? You can use it for good or you can use it for evil. And I think with pornography, if it detracts from your relationship, then that's a negative way of using it. But if it adds your relationship, I can see being like, for me, I think it adds to my imagination. It makes me want my partner more and it makes me excited when I'm away from him. But I can see it being bad if it becomes like keeping up with the Joneses. I can see opening a Pornhub and being like, everyone is fucking accept me, right? And having that feeling like, I need to keep up. That's not a good feeling either because you end up judging your own reality. So how we choose to use porn is also in our power. I really enjoy talking about porn, openly, and I think maybe sometimes that takes away the shame with it and I do think there's something to be said just about being open about sexuality and it's not just pornography just sexuality in general, would probably benefit us. Yeah, I was going to say my other takeaway was it's unfortunate that our society is such stigma and shame around sex, and all sorts of addiction, too. I mean, that I think prevents people from getting the help. They need, right? And mat kind of said that is that's the biggest barrier is the shame of actually admitting that there is a problem. But I think we should celebrate people of taking control of their lives instead of shaming them that they're doing something wrong because that's just going to be a perpetual cycle that keeps someone in a place that isn't serving them and you're living proof that you can't come out of things if you put your mind to it. It's a 100% possible. Wonderful. Anything else to add Matt? I know you live and breathe this stuff, but no, you know, there's always a lot of stuff I could say, but I would just say, you know, a couple a couple ways that we kind of like identify like, you know, it's porn a problem for me is this something an issue for me. Now I'm not sure how many men listen to your show. A lot quite a few men. A lot of men, yeah. A couple ways, I think one could maybe judge or gauge, you know, is this problematic for me? First of all, you probably just kind of know, you know, like on a gut instinctual level, if it's cool with you or not. Another way is like, what is your experience with pornography like a route pornography? After you use it in the days and the weeks that follow, like, how do you feel about yourself? How does it affect your sense of self confidence? Your sense of self worth, your energy levels, you know? Feel socially awkward, sexually awkward like, pay attention just to the direct immediate feedback that you've received. Number two is is it something that you are having to hide in your life? You having to hide it from your partner. If you have to sneak it around. If you handed your phone over right now to your partner to go through it, would you be okay with that? Is this something you have to hide and sneak? Is that like a sneaky energy in your life? And number three, have you told yourself or decided at some point that you were going to quit, but you continue not to. Those would be some great indicators that you could use to gauge. And I think if you want to begin to explore it, get into get into community as a great first step, you know? Just get around to the people that kind of, as you mentioned, Julie, normalize the conversation for you a little bit. Allow you just to get it out a little bit and just kind of recognize you're not alone on this journey and you can begin exploring some resources that way and get some support. Well, that's why I think like alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous has been so successful and helpful to people because it gives community at the end of the day. So I'm really glad to hear that there is this for porn. And you're helping lead the way. I guess like four people that want to learn more that might be going through this. What are some ways that they can kind of get in touch with you in find these communities? Yeah. Thanks for thanks for that opportunity. So I run a Facebook group online. It's currently called making peace with porn. It's a private group of men only from around the world. The name of my coaching organization is poor to purpose. So we're thinking about changing the group to porn to purpose. So if you search the group, it'll either be making peace with foreign report to purpose. That would be a great way to connect with us on Facebook or if you'd like to connect directly. If you're a man or a woman, maybe you're a female and you've got some questions about it, you know, regarding your partner or whatever, making peace with porn at Gmail dot com would be an easy way to connect with me as well. Great. Can I ask one more question actually before we go out? Do you typically work with heterosexual males? Or do you see this with LGBTQ+ community as well? Yeah, I understand it's very prevalent in the homosexual LGBTQ community hopefully I said that right.

01:10:02 - 01:12:53

I understand it's very prevalent there as well. Generally speaking, I work with heterosexual men. I have worked with homosexual men. Oftentimes, if a man is kind of more in that category, he might be a man that deals with what he calls same sex addiction or maybe it's like an attraction toward another man or maybe like bisexual men. So they're kind of working through navigating that terrain in their own life. But I'm here to help all. But generally it is heterosexual identifying young men. Got it. Well, thanks so much Matt. I mean, this is a wonderful conversation and I'm glad that we're open openly talking about it and for any of our listeners who want to learn more. You have all the resources now. We are going to wrap up this episode, but before we do so, we always like to say this, we love you. We hope you love us too. And if you do so, please go into Apple podcasts and give us a 5 star rating and write something nice or write something insightful. We love reading those love notes that you've all been sending in. Those are great. And you can always tag us on Instagram at data podcasts. If you have some feedback or just want to chat with us about stuff. And on that, we're gonna wrap up this episode. The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network, find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tagas in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitch radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to. Stay dateable. If you love hosting over the holidays, swap out your old age back filter with a filtrate air filter, it can help clear away particles from all your holiday cooking. Look for filtrate air filters at a retailer near you. Let's clear the air. You know the old saying selling like hotcakes. What does that even mean? What is a hotcake anyway? They should change it to selling like hondas, because right now, hondas are selling faster than ever. Probably because they're so rugged, long-lasting and fuel efficient. And if you want one, you should get to your local Honda dealer right away. Check out the 8 passenger pilot, or maybe the adventurous passport. What you gotta do it fast because hondas are selling like? Well, Honda's. New models are arriving now. Don't wait, see your local Honda dealer today.