S13E4: Are You Busy Avoiding Intimacy?

Dateable Podcast
September 7, 2021
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September 7, 2021

S13E4: Are You Busy Avoiding Intimacy?

Whether you have an avoidant attachment style or are just too damn busy, you'll relate hard as we chat with Greg about how his 'always on the go' lifestyle was playing into his avoidant tendencies.

Are You Busy Avoiding Intimacy?

Whether you have an avoidant attachment style or are just too damn busy, you'll relate hard as we chat with Greg about how his 'always on the go' lifestyle was playing into his avoidant tendencies. We discuss how to balance having a fulfilling life with making room for another person, why just moving isn't the answer to your dating problems, and what the future of more remote nomadic living means for our love lives.

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Episode Transcript

S13E4: Are You Busy Avoiding Intimacy?

00:00:01 - 00:05:10

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves.  I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.

Welcome to another episode of the data. Podcast where we dig into the wise of people's behavior when it comes to modern dating and then we're going to tell you the house of navigating this whole dating scene. Your love live excetera along with our big announcement that we've been teasing for awhile. I feel like the biggest. He's right now. I'm in my life. The how has been what we've been asked for for so long. Everyone's like okay the wiser basing but we need the house in. That's basically what we set off to do like. How can we bring the house. And what is that question that everyone wants like what is it. Ultimately that people want when they listen to dateable. And i think the silver lining that really brought this to life was the pandemic that we got to have so much close contact with all of you. The facebook group through instagram through all the community and really hearing like what are the struggles in really what people want is to go from that dating hamster wheel being on the apps off the apps endless cycles of dates beating emotionally unavailable. People getting ghosted. All the stuff that we hate about modern dating that everyone complains about. It's like i don't want that. I wanted to find my person like finding that like real connection like it's so hard these days for whatever reason to find that. It's like a needle in a haystack. Or at least that's the feeling so you and i really like put our bides together like we've talked to thousands of daters at this point. How can we use what we learn dateable in put this to good use. That's really helping. Everyone reached the goal that they're trying to goal is to meet their personal ultimately. Have you been following us in our facebook group as well as on social media. We've teased out long enough. And we did reveal exactly. We're working on as far as the the concept of it. Which is a program to help you find your person. This is a tried and true method that we've developed in the last few years and we've tried it on ourselves obviously worked for both julian. I we've also tried it on others. Unbeknownst to them also seen great results from it and we are so excited to share this method with a select group of people because well there are only two of us so we share with everyone but we can only take on so many at a time and that is why we announce this early bird weightless in our facebook group as well as on our social channels. Because if you sign up for the early bird weightless than you'll be the first to know of win. Registration starts for this finding your person program And you'll be notified because we're also going to be dropping a six part series videos. And i think you add. I like we've been thinking about this. You a comes from the data get distri. I've read a shithead of terrible. Take box that i feel. I basically did the opposite of four be defined by person. I totally hindered me finally by person. So i think we're coming from this is like the anti big advice away. Yes well through a throw at all the all the bullshit right. We've tried kind of everything. All the workshops all the Different seminars all. The different theories and theories are great. I love getting theoretical. But then what you do with that theory. Have you ever read a book and then thought these are great theories but are they practical. What are some real life examples. So what we've come up with our yes. There are theories but also how do you implement and put them into practice in your real love life. Yeah i think that's really the thing that we developed as the balance of no positively reflection and action. We see so. Many people just spinning their wheels overthinking not taking enough action and then we see others that are just diving in head first and not really and get all so also what do you put out into the universe. I think that could sound really hokey. But i do believe that people read the energy. And if you're projecting certain negatively people on dates can feel that in when you're vibrating that positively people like attract. You like baghdad. Self you want more information definitely get on that early bird weightless it's finding your person dot com straight to the point right finding to here. Earth dot com. We actually played around the name quite a bit and Finding love finding finding the love of that you want finding someone who needs her needs but after speaking to so many people finding your person just we get it you get it we get it.

00:05:11 - 00:10:07

Like what are you. What are your. What's your goal for coming here to dateable. Every is like. I'm trying to find my personal trying to find and it feels damn good. What you find your person does it it. Does i've doing it. Ultimate test of our relationship. This weekend going to do. We're renting a two per se kayak. Oh boy well you're not sleeping on it are you okay. Now it'd be the ultimate test. What is it. The ultimate test is a trip to i- kia a trip to the super bark. And i think the two person kayak kinda goes up there. You gotta lotta coordination together. I think that'd be really fun. It'll be a good bonding experience. Let me know how you survive both physically and mentally from that. There wasn't option. You get like a to go basically if you need to use the bathroom while you're there it's okay. Did you know we're like we're gonna take our chances also probably not going to be on the kayak for four hours. We have the rental over four hours. I don't think we're going to be there for four hours or you can just take a little dip. Yeah that's what i said. It was like the world's biggest toilet right. Yeah and how awkward would it be. You're off to the side with your partner right. That like it's not like he can hide and go somewhere else. I just wanted to know what it looks like. Have you seen those before. It's like there's one gal go like when you camping. Yeah yeah. I had to my My friend may use it when we hiked kilimanjaro. And i remember she was like this is going to be amazing the middle of the night. I want to go to the bathroom and then towards the end. She's like i'm just paying out in the woods. Like i don't need this thing. Just i'm just squatting now too lazy to get this thing out. But that's going to be exciting. I was talking to my boyfriend about what could be something that could bring us even closer and he was joking that have we just pooped in front of each other and like actually yeah going to the bathroom together would absolutely bring you closer to the ultimate signed that you just don't give a fuck anymore you know. It's like bathroom behavior. How those first few months of dating. It is like the most awkward thing when when you have to go number two like do i go this place to go before hindu. I just hold it. There are so many relationships i've been on. I've been in that ad. I would hold it for the first few months constipated all the time. And then you get to the point where it's like a tipping point. You're like we're seeing each other enough. You just openly talk about it and then you get to like too comfortable point where you to openly talk about your your regular you are and what you're eating and maybe sometimes what it looks like it's crazy. It's just how you can go from. I'm going to hold it. I don't ever poop to like mine was really good today. Just one turns and that everyone's relationship goal right there. But the i guess. The alternate goal is to get to toilets side-by-side back in the day. I think this i don't know. Go making this up. And then you sit back to back and then you you know. Talk about your relationship and hang. I don't know. I think there's something that are better left to mysterious. I mean talk about a bonding experience. Talk about a bonding experience. For sure i did have a switch therapists. And i had my first therapy session today. In long and julie. You think this is hilarious. We got on our call. And she and i were wearing the exact same thing like this cape thing like this. I don't know you. Would you call this a wrap or a cape. It's a very theory by kind of feeling thing. And i like wearing it when i'm in therapy because i can wrap myself in it. But she got on the call and we were wearing the exact same thing touching our capes and the exact same way like. Wow we are as one right now. She must be a great one for me. But she and i talked about dream interpretation quite a bit and this is one thing i will share with our audience and then we can move on from this topic but i used to think dream interpretation was to interpret his happening your dreams and she gave me a really great piece of advice. You should always just remember how the dream made you feel and then take away so her advice is after you dream after you wake up in the morning. Jot down keywords of how that dream made you feel. Don't worry about the details. Who was in the dream. Just how the dream made you feel and see any patterns. I had a nightmare the other night that my partner die broke up. How did that make you feel really horrible. Really scared and i woke up and luckily he was sleeping next to me. And he's like they got up here right now. He's not going anywhere so scared. Maybe yeah i think gable or or maybe it's like this is something that you want to preserve and you don't wanna be there you know.

00:10:08 - 00:15:10

I don't think i dreamt it. Because i fear that that would happen but i think it was like this is something that's really important to be right. Yes oh what a lose. It validated the importance of the relationship. I also had a dream about you last night. Shoot god of scared we were. I have no i remember. She said it doesn't matter who's in the dream. What's in a dream. It's more how it makes you feel. I don't know where we were. I don't know somewhere public. And you and i were walking and i was holding your phone for some reason could end this man. I think a homeless man came out of nowhere with a really aggressive bulldog and the bulldog looked vicious and looked like he was about to set the bulldog free into the audience. And so i started running. I was like no i. I think this is something wrong with the situation. I'm scared for my life. I'm gonna run and halfway through my run turn around. You're not there. I don't know where you were. I don't obese are running with me. I was so scared. But i had your phone and the whole time. I kept thinking who to call. How is she going to call people if she needed. How how she gonna get help so it really scared me so it yes. I had a scary dream as well. Wow i don't even know what to make that thing. I don't think he's to make anything of that. I thought you were going to say that. We were holding hands halting a cell phone. I don't know why by twitter julie. it's a self fulfilling. Prophecy is posted a photo of making an announcement and one of my friend josh. Thanks josh was like engaged. Because the photo i agree legit. Looks like we are holding hands. If you know the photo we're talking about you know exactly. Oh what's happening. If he wants to see there's a whole slew was that are way better than that. Yes this is what happen wing. New had a wedding photographer taking photos. Now in hindsight we realize because in the moment we're like yeah put your head on my shoulder. That's cool your pinky on my. Maybe maybe they'll be really someday. We'll we'll keep you posted. Maybe it's a secret. Volts are lesbian bulbs of a lot of people who already were in a relationship. Rightfully i love if we shot. We've been working on this for years and it also be like a coming out like you'll be so much god right there you know what might be a better offering than anything that we get more than this this program that we're working on disappoint you all that. It wasn't engagement announcement between julian so anyway. We are not engaged but awesome at break. Very sorry leaves photos assists. We've gotten request to see these photos. So we will really someone of these days when we get really big. There's some really good ones. Oh my god well. Every time we in the meantime what is episode about talking about that enough about us. I was so excited about this episode. Because i feel like you know. It's coming off a last week's about confessions of reform coaster which got a really good reception. I think a lot of people. Just love this episode. That gave like a different look into the mindset of someone. That's ghosting right. You were is like what's wrong with me. And she basically confirmed. There's nothing wrong with you. It is all about that person in waited. So if you listen to that definitely check it out. But or continuing this avoidance trade this week and we're talking to our guest gregg. He's been a digital nomad for really long time. I've known him. I feel like i feel like this is a trend. That's been starting with kovin of people working remote and moving all over the place. But greg has really been the digital nomad and even before that he talks about like living in the city in being too busy. I think a lot of times. We all use this busy as a way to avoid intimacy at the end of the day. Like i definitely did that for a while. Guy feel like until i stopped filling my social calendar. Like every second when you kinda like sit with yourself and be like okay. Why is my life this way when i want x. y. z. And i think he's had a lot of those revelations over cova time and we're so excited to have him share those with all of you. It's going to be so relatable for so many of you because in this society we normalize busy. You know it's like cool to be busy and it's normal to be busy when not really i mean if you have time to next to your partner or not you have time for your friends or for the people that you are trying to connect with and i really love this journey. That greg went on to realize this that it's it's the avoid attachment that he has that has enabled him to kind of run away from things when now he's ready to be in one place.

00:15:10 - 00:20:03

Can you believe it to fully commit to building a life somewhere. Doesn't mean that your life doesn't work when you're digital nomad. You're not gonna find love. That's not the case. But i think it's all about your intentions so if you are traveling a always on the go if your intentions are still to find your person and out toward title for a program ben. You're on that path to do so but if your intentions are to come off busy or seem unavailable or to seem like you're hard to get then you're not gonna find your person you're gonna travel. Who are trying to prove something to themselves. Well i think a lot of times when we entered digital know missy and travel. It's like to explore in find ourselves that can always be essential for that next stab when you are ready to find that person a bit more. But i think it's sometimes hard if you're an exploration mood seen to settle down settle down but you to be a little more grounded row. Yeah or just slow. I feel like she's got to be a little slow slower pace of life. This is what i meant to say. I worry that'll down. I just. I don't know i feel like before the pandemic i was definitely more. Go go go in. I realized how much just slowing down was important. In how much i even ensure By social interactions better when it was a bit slower. And i know it sounds weird to say that you enjoyed social times during the pandemic but i personally had a really great year socially during the pandemic and i think sometimes like like the pace that you're going at it just allows you to connect deeper with people when it is a little slower or i guess more present it's mindful and its present. You're not thinking about. How do i fill my calendar. You're thinking about. How do i fill my cup in this moment right or you start to like appreciate little things more like going for a walk or going to the park. I actually got the pleasure of vedic. What of our former guest. Jeff harry the other week. Yeah we use our vet producers. Birthday party You might remember him for making dating fun again. The play expert in. I met my boyfriend also he was like. What was the best date you guys went on and we cut over both like i don't even know 'cause there's just so many times even just being in the presence not doing much has been our favorites. We kind of talked about this. After it's like even just going to the park laying downer. They have a the sunday couch test. Right where you're just doing that thing with someone can actually be the time that you greatly joy. It doesn't have to necessarily be this crazy adventure all the time. Although it's obviously fun to bake that in sometimes it doesn't need to be just a nonstop on the go activity activity activity. I feel like the connection comes with slowing down a bit. So maybe the question should be what has been your best date activity And then what has been your best date where you connected the most needs to be expanded on because what has been your best date. It's a hard question to answer. Because people tend to fall into the activity of the dayton and not so much. The person that you're on the date with rai or like what was that time that was like a turning point in your relationship and that could be like a little moment. it doesn't matter good ones. yeah yes turning. Points are crossroads or turning point. Zero always greet moments pinpoint. yes grapes. So that's the episode coming up and now we're gonna get into our questions. Question is somewhat related We have someone write in and say. I've been seeing someone i really like. But he seems really busy. He's always busy with work busy with friends busy with his family. Do i say something to him. Or should i just wait it out and wait till he's less busy. I've definitely data someone like that. Yeah i've been that person to. Yeah well. I think the first thing to to ask and it's hard for us because we don't know the situation. Is there a situation that has an end point like is he for instance finishing up school in it ends next month and he's in finals or whatever. I'm just making scenarios or is this just a perpetual business. 'cause i think those are very different things yes and i think about when i was avoiding people and trying to come off extremely busy the difference was and you're exactly right on. Julie is that i would either say i'm i'm still busy this weekend. Like there was no end in sight rhianna but for the people i really liked i will give them a specific date. I am really busy until i come back on this day.

00:20:03 - 00:25:02

I would love to see you that same day. They'll give you a time line if they are serious about connecting with you. I mean there are periods of everyone's lives like i'm even just thinking about us right now as we really putting together this program like. There's just a lot going on. And if i was in the dating world or with someone that wasn't as establish it might be hard to make that time commitment. But that being said like i am still making sure that i have more than apple of tie for my partner. Kara day joining the other. Flipside is people prioritize. What they want to prioritize even if it's a new relationship if someone was super into it they will prioritize it to some degree. It's always hard to give likes blanket. Yes or no because there's some circumstances that really just don't allow someone to prioritize. So i think it's digging in a little deeper of. What is it that they're busy. With whom to in that is that might be up to your intuition. A bit like is the stuff that feels very pressing that you understand why they might not be able to give you the time back to the example of finishing school for instance if they are wrapping up papers and doing have very time commitments on them. It may be more understandable that they can't be around every second or respond to texts immediately but if they're just like shooting the shit with their friends all the time like. I don't know if that's necessary early enough of a reason that they're not available to you and it really comes down to how you feel around. This person. do feel two very distinct questions here. Do you feel like this person's fitting you into their schedule or do you feel like this person's making time for you. There are two very distinct avenues. You can go down if they're just fitting you in then you're afterthought you're like this. I don't know about puzzle piece and they're like hey. I have some room here when put her in here. But if this person's making room for you and making time for you they push away other obligations to spend time with you so right check back in with how you genuinely feel around them but the question is should i bring it up to them. I think absolutely you should. Has they might not even be aware that they're doing this. I think there's nothing wrong with saying like okay. If the if the scenario is busy with an end date. I think you can cut. Maybe leave it a little and see if things free app once that happens or maybe even planning something if they have something big. Maybe it's saying like oh let's celebrate when this is over on the in seeing their receptiveness to it but if this is just a perpetual busy i think you should have that conversation in say something like hey i really like you. I really enjoy spending time with you. Sometimes though it feels like i'm kind of an afterthought or i've second to other stuff going on like what's your take and kind of just like see what they say from there like leave it open and you know have that conversation. Make it like a back and forth. Conversation doesn't need to a confrontation or anything it's just simply stating how it's making you feel of an afterthought just seeing how they respond to it how they respond to it. We'll tell you everything if they kind of go into mode of no. I'm not like you're crazy. You're not believing this like that is very telling versus them. Being like oh i was. I didn't. I wasn't aware i was doing this. Let's figure out how to fix this. Yes my therapist says something to me today. I thought it was a great technique. Is you say might perspective. I wanna share with you my perspective. Do you think i can share with. You asked for permission. Do you can share with you. And the person will probably say yes in so it puts in the context of that. This is your perspective. And how you see. Things are not so much. you're attacking them for it but practice can open communication everything we've just given you right now is a great opportunity for you to hone in your communication skills and to communicate your needs so good luck with that. I don't care announcements. let's do announcements. Well you heard the big one. Dig your person dot com. Get on that early bird. Wait list as always. Follow us on instagram. At dateable podcast. Join love in the time of corona. Which is our facebook group. We had our first weekly sound off this last week. Which is the updates. we've been making to The sounding board and we had a host led session. We have our hosts shield in brian along with janice kind of overseeing our moderator. The discussion that they had they broke up into smaller. Groups was all about how to ditch. The checklist defied the right. Person in the response was amazing. People that have been with us doing these happy ours. Discussions all the stuff that we've been doing said this was by far the favourite one yet which means that we're onto something so it was really glad to see that. I think that having a bit more of the focus conversation. Lets people know like okay. I'm going to clear out my wednesday night for an hour to come to this.

00:25:02 - 00:30:00

It's going to be worth my time. And i mean the people in this group just continue to amaze us all the time just the level of introspection emotional intelligence like this is a really good group to surround yourself. West of you're feeling alone under dating journey having this community is essential so go to dateable. Podcast dot com slash sounding board in you can get in. We just have one level. Keep it simple. Just be a member. that's it. They alica dot com slash sounding board. That's it okay. let's do quick message from our sponsors. This episode is made possible by lugs and miss the golden age of the nineties. Lugs found its footing as leader within the footwear and fashion space priding itself on quality materials as supreme comfort. The brand never wavered with the passing of trends whether you remember the brand's early appeal within the hip hop culture or the countless celebrity endorsements one thing remains the same lugs distinctive style. Julian i both have a few different styles of lug shoes ranging from their iconic boots to their canvas sneakers even though they're so different in style one thing remains the same there are also comfortable and light. I love my flirt. Hides it boots that. I can wear with summer dresses and my canvas knickers go so perfectly with my jeans and t-shirts fund comfortable everyday where realistically price and affordable so treat yourself. You can never have too many pairs of lugs exclusively for our beautiful listeners. Get thirty percent off full price items now by going to lug dot com and entering the cote dateable again that's l. dot com and entering the code. Dat e. a. b. l. e. for thirty percent full price items. This episode is brought to you by one last kiss by cap martin colorado rancher. Sam bridge will do anything for a friend even if it means babysitting rich city girl. Who knows more about high fashion than horses blonde. Beautiful liberty hail looks like a model and acts like a spoiled brat but samson's is another side to the young woman who has lost so much of her family as she can't deny the heat just one like her ignites. Libby is determined to get through her time on the ranch. Her inheritance depends on her. Putting in a solid month's work she hadn't imagined her boss will be a sexy straightforward cowboy as she surprised to discover. Just how much you want him. As life in the colorado sunshine's begins to burn away her grief. Libyan sam's attraction each other starts to sizzle. And there's so much more to the story. Get your hands on one last. Kiss by cap martin. At kensington books dot com or wherever books are sold. okay. Let's hear it from greg when i think about our guests. I think of the phrase. Catch me if you can. Because in the last was six seven years i've known greg i've caught him. Maybe like three or four times each time he was on his way to somewhere else. This international man of mystery. He is thirty five years old. Currently living in bozeman montana. Good to know where i can catch you by to. He's been there for nine months. He's originally from acton massachusetts he single and actively going on dates the topic as you all know about dating while living this nomadic lifestyle but we want to dive deeper into this topic because it isn't just about lifestyle but also like things that have changed during cova. Did the have. Maybe amplified your nomadic lifestyle. So let's just. I reflect back while i. Hello greg nicer. Catch you on video of so glad. You're here because i think this is so relevant for so many people especially with the changes that covert is bringing that it's allowing people more nomadic lives so i'm really excited to hear what you've learned from your experience what you would do all over again in what you wouldn't repeats when it comes to relationships of course totally i've had so many people shout in like the last year and a half and like asked me about all sorts of aspects of like living in working remotely than ever before. Yeah i mean it's crazy and you're kind of living the dream. I feel like especially in the bay area. A nomadic lifestyle is what we all strike or to work remotely to live anywhere in the world and to have the freedom to travel. Will we want to hear about today. Is how that nomadic lifestyle place into your dating life so if we had to go back to the moment you decided you want wanted this type of lifestyle. How long do you think you've been a nomad for. i mean even my last couple of years sf. I had a lot of flexibility with my job. So i would kinda go all over kind of went. I could is wanted to do it for forever.

00:30:01 - 00:35:01

sling like when i finally got my camper and moved into it. It had been like a decade. Since like i had thought about doing it in college like you've lived like you take stints in argentina to so you went like globally during this nomadic life as well. Yeah i mean. I travel for skiing a lot so yeah i would go down to south america to ski when it's summer up here and that how date if you're constantly on the go you're in different countries if not a different countries you're at least in a different city. Seems like all the time. how do you. How do you sustain relationships. I mean disciplined a lot of people. Here probably say it's not easy. Yeah can't be the number one thing. Is that people. Tend to not always take you seriously. Because you know you're transitory. I get it. You have to show people that your interested and available and also flexible. I think for me that was really key to be like. Hey you know if this starts working out. I can swing back through. I feel like you always had like long distance. Things go like i've ever like does guy. Here's a guy here. Like oliver different parts like. How did you find coming through like that promises. Obviously good that you'll be back again but clearly it's more challenging than if you could see every day and build that into your life. How did you kind of have that play out. It was difficult or didn't work. I mean i think it was difficult for sure. Like i said you know people tend to not take you super seriously and then just for me personally. You know. there's a stage like yeah. It's exciting at the beginning. But it's also you're just getting to know that person and if you're gonna like you get to know them a little bit and then you take off and then you're back again. It's kinda like it's maybe not at square one but it's not the same as going on dates with someone every week or something like that I'm pretty good at staying in touch so kind. Kinda did a lot of video chatting and just getting to know someone in like in some ways i found that like that's can be really love whe it has it's own pitfalls for sure but i found that you get to know someone really well without having sex. Confuse things complicate things as much in. I find that that is myself like probably make better choices. I feel like you were doing the date. The cova dated before kovin like video dates. Take against sla rat sexual encounters because you had to you were tolley Before your time. Greg get real i sag. If you said people couldn't take you seriously should they take you seriously. I'm putting myself in the shoes of people that you may have come across. I would think what a cool life the sky leads. He's traveled the world. And you never know where he is. That's awesome. I'm attracted to that. But do i want to be a relationship with someone like that because they could have in theory ten twenty other relationships from all the different places. Ja- i mean that's fair. I didn't really do that. I kind of like. I go a little crazy if i have too many things on the stove kind of so i usually go one at a time. That's not to say like there's not guys. I'm potentially interested in elsewhere but i usually like as far as dating the however you wanna define an idea that one at a time and then that's something i do for myself more than for anyone else. Yeah i mean. I think i had a couple of instances that were very frustrating. Where somebody would meet up with me for date and then be like. Oh you don't live here and like yeah. It's literally the first thing. I say on my profile. Someone didn't ask now that i'm mostly in bozeman or at least home-based i totally get it. I look at people just passing through in. Both men is a place where people pass through a lot and unlike Do i wanna go on a date with this person. They're going to be on in two weeks anyway. I just you know. I tried to make sure on the first date that the guys i was seeing knew that like if that that i'm a point at a point in my life that if this goes well that i will stick around but as i learned that has its own challenges as well. Because you're starting out a relationship you don't really know this person that well and frequently your marooned in a place where you don't know anyone else the like they're kind of your whole world in that play in so and it's very early so it's like kinda puts a lot of pressure on relationship. Even if i can kind of hang around that means. I like very quickly have defined the friends and find stuff to do that not tied to that person. You don't have a life.

00:35:01 - 00:40:00

They're pretty right. Yeah interesting so were you up front with people being like i date one at a time like i am looking for a relationship. That was something that you were pretty upfront with despite nomadic lifestyle i mean. I'm just pretty upfront. In general yeah i would. I would make sure they knew that. I was pneumatic but is actually serious about dating the one at a time thing. If it comes up. I'll tell people and a lot of times. I mean you know. I used to live in sf. So i'm like my basic assumption. Is that they're going on dates with other people and that's fine and i i've told guys before that like i'm just stating you were not at a point. Where like you have to be doing listening but just know that like. That's that's where i'm at that's good and what has been your intention. Is it to get into a long term serious relationship like for sure. One hundred percent. I mean i want. It's not something i've ever had. It's a little embarrassing but at thirty five my longest relationship ever hasn't been like four months out. A lot of people are on our show our in our community that say that there's nothing to be barest about nothing wrong with that. I mean i think there's a certain i have avoided tendencies foreshore. They think the travel fits into that. Very well In dating people that don't live close to. You also fits into that very well kinda trying to get away from that. Currently i lived in f- for like eight years. I dated on and off throughout that time and i never made anything happened really but you are also leaving all the time you were here. You were living at asset for wine foot out. This is true. That was the problem for sure. But i think it was. You know edison point. I think for me reached a certain age and is like well. I just have to look in the mirror. There's a reason. None of my relationships are working out. And i'm only common denominator at this point is that was that part of the reason that you decided to like. Settle down in bosnian was cut. Like did you have these revelations. Cove ed I had these revelations for a while. It actually like well when i moved into my truck basically like doing it alone. Most people a lot of people that do van life or whatever do it with a partner because it gets really lonely. It's amazing i've gotten to do amazing amazing stuff but there has been times where i wish i had somebody to share that with like an incredible sunset and her credit incredible moment or something and i can definitely tell my friends and family about it. And they'll be stoked for me but it's not the same as having somebody there Experiencing that with you when you have the four four month long relationship your longest. Was that during your nomadic lifestyle or was it. When you are settled in san francisco. There was one. When i was like leaving right before i left for i had like might truck already taibbi other relationship. I had had before that that was official. Anyways was in college cedary during nomadic lifestyle. You are pretty much on your own with things here and there. I actually met a guy in bozeman Amount that that was like. I was very very into and we kinda made it work for a little bit. While my truck broke down in bozeman ended up meeting him wyoming down. it was like a forest. Stay that how you ended up. I dated him for a while. And then There's a really big age gap and that didn't really work out. We're just very different. What's really big. He was twenty and thirty two. I thought that thing. No the age gap itself is like not wasn't necessarily the problem. It's just that he was young. I want kids and like that's where my mind is at right now and it was. It was something i had mentioned to him like three years ago. Like when i when. I gave him a whole speech about why we should date. Why you should shouldn't necessarily. He was the one that was like super kinda like wanted to hang out moran and iowa's the one who is like you know this is cool. You're like into a lot of the same stuff i am in. You seem really awesome but like your twenty in like you know. We'll hang out a little bit in. We'll go our separate ways. Stage of life is a big thing for sure. And do you think that's sort of how you call this. Basically people who would be attracted to your lifestyle maybe at a stage in life where they're trying to figure shit out and just looking at statistics alone. It probably veers on the younger side. Yeah i think.

00:40:00 - 00:45:02

In general what. I what i found out is that i'm really into spending time outdoors. I'm really into travelling. And people who tend to like those things tend to be very avoided a lot of solitude right and always on the go nell home base. I could totally see that right. Well in like being outside spending time outdoors. Being whatever backpacking ski. Touring whatever you all of those things. It's a sense of pride of being resources. Full adaptive and independent interesting and independence. Works cuts both ways right. There's a lot of people in myself in my previous self included who view or relationship as a threat to their resume their freedom and independence accents. Let's take a quick break from this riveting conversation for a few announcements let's face it. It's a weird time to be dating or developing relationships. Have you recently decided that you wanna make some changes to your love life. Maybe you've recently reenter the dating seed. Maybe you've gone on one too. Many dates that went nowhere. Or maybe you're ready to take your current relationship to the next level. That is exactly why we created the sounding. Board a true extension of podcasts. That delivers a personalized experience which includes one on coffee dates with us. A monthly dateable live after show exclusive audio content much more allow julian. I become your dating. Sheriff us to provide real time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcasts dot com slash sounding board again. That's dateable podcasts. Dot com slash sounding board. Okay let's get back into this combo okay. So you had the time on the road when you in the rv that you are experiencing sunset seeing all the staff. Was there any other moments that you're like okay. Something's gotta change. Want us which out my lifestyle i mean. I kind of ignored a lot of my friends for awhile. Who were like. You're not gonna basically like you're not gonna meet someone this way. Okay and as like no could happen. I know it's harder. But it could happen and i still believe that. I do think it could happen. Did meet that guy in bozeman and that was one of the most meaningful relationships i've ever had. It didn't work out but it was still incredibly meaningful for me but it is hard right. There's always an option for a to. But i do think that like have a home base somewhere. You're just like more kind of settled down by default and away so it kind of lends itself may be more of that you are you. Are you resistant to the idea. Because julie you know what this reminds me of is our episode with jesse and cassie. Who are on our last season. Jesse left san francisco to explore the world and thought he was gonna live this nomadic lifestyle and in the middle of his travels. He couldn't stop thinking about this one girl that he had a friendship with back home in san francisco and it took him almost a year of traveling and being nomadic to say she is the one. And i'm gonna get her and we're gonna make san francisco homebase or wherever the two of us are going to find a home base and then we can go and explore the world together like. What is your theory around. What could possibly happen and make it work. I think being on the road alone. Traveling alone gives you a lot of time to think so. That doesn't surprise me. I mean. I initially hit the road. Might my initial kind of feeling was i've been in. Sf'er eight years in part of being in sf for me. Was i wanna date. I wanna try to like find a boyfriend. At a certain point i was like i've been here eight years. Nothing's happened and i'm not gonna sit around and wait. I'm going to go live my life. I'm gonna do things that i wanna do and especially take opportunities that i have and you know that will make me more attractive to the right partner instead of just like hanging around and waiting for stuff to have literally. I think that that time to think can really clarify a lot of things what it clarified for me. Was that the problem was not sf. The problem was well that i feel like people always do that. They always play their city. I know and i think it's like is a double edged sword. Because i agree with you what you just said. It's like you shouldn't wait for you. Wanna do something with your life. You shouldn't necessarily like wait because you wanna meet someone but then on the other side of it usually just moving somewhere else isn't gonna solve the deeper problems of what's going on.

00:45:02 - 00:50:08

It's like a Ternal fix right totally Okay so you're on the road you're having these revelations. How did you get to the point that you're like this is me. Not it wasn't san francisco but it's my own stuff going odd I have a friend who for years was talking talking to me about reading the book attacks and attachment theory in general. Okay and he's just super interested in that stuff and i started. I listened to a lot of podcasts. Including the and i started just examining more. It's i think it was similar for me for starting therapy to start thinking about things that maybe you're blind to before in your kind of mindset towards it matures in you start realizing that these things are inevitable. I think that's a really good point though the holy slowing down in taking this stuff in because part of the challenge. Let's say you don't do the nomadic life but you're just in a city. I know i did this for years. I just kept myself busy. Always going out. I was always surrounded by people. I never really had like a lone time to be deep in my thoughts and i think i didn't realize like subconsciously that i was doing this. But it was a form of avoidance it away the have either of you dealt with this Because i think people that maybe aren't nomads. Can relate that sometimes even being in the city that you think that your settled down in. You're still not like open necessarily totally. I think that. I know for myself that like when i was dating actively like now look back on it and i was like i was not ready to be released until i wanted cuda with everybody else wanted which was like an activity partner. Somebody who's do stuff with me. When i want to and what i want to and that's not a relationship right. That's now that's fun. But it's not a. There's no such person right like everybody has their own personalities and alan interests and that's what makes it great but i think i needed that time to just be alone and think about things to realize that and i i feel kinda bad because i dated pretty actively on and off and now i realize it wasn't really serious about it. That's yeah. I i relate to that so hard. I felt the same way when i was living in new york. Surrounded by noise and people and louds events in bunch of shit going on and it was the loneliest time of my life. Because i used that noise to drown out my own thoughts. And even though i thought i was living this really eventful and fun life when i went home and night it was early quiet and i had just did not want to deal with whatever thoughts i had coming to my head but then i would also argue. Wouldn't could you also say that four. Be on the run all the time. Oh i felt like at some point in new york too. I kept thinking okay. I'm done with a new york. Noise and distractions. I'm just going to go skip down. I'm gonna go this other part of the world and all all. My problems will be resolved. By the time i come back when i come back. All the problems are even worse right. Well i think one hundred percent. I think that's why people always look to go to a different location as the solution. I think that's why people are drawn to the nomadic lifestyle too. Because you're always on the go. I mean the reality is it. Probably it's like you could probably make whatever work but it's not where you are work you're doing on. The inside is really probably the deep down piece of it true. That's true like when when your houses mobile it's very easy towel near problems. Get in and go somewhere. They'll always catch up to you though the tricky part and i'm sure a lot of people are asking this question. Greg you know you have an attachment style yet. You live this life where it's very easy for you to pick up your shit leave. So how are you reconciling. The to where you're still you know you have this this of Attachment style and you live life. That could enable it. How do you not let it enable it carefully. I'm trying to take the good that i see. I mean i am proud of the fact that like very self sufficient and independent To the right person that will make me an attractive partner. But i'm also trying. I'm in bozeman now. I'm trying to hear a little bit more. I still wanna travel still loved to travel. It still love to ski a lot. But i'm trying to make an active effort to be here to have community to potentially aid someone in be willing to understand that.

00:50:08 - 00:55:02

Yeah i can't at that point. Just take off for half a year. I still i do go to argentina every year. And that's one of my favorite institu- and i really want to keep on doing that. But if if. I'm dating someone who can't do that with me than you know. Maybe i go month instead of three. But i do think for me personally. It would be very important to date someone who's independent on their own. I just think it's hard to find people who are independent but also a serious relationship because those two things they don't have to be opposed but a lot of times. I think we all feel like they are like speaking for avoided people. Yeah i've either. It's the whole thing comes down to balance like it's always easier said than done but this is really the root of it. It's like when you're always out like being like outdoors and active and looking for the activity partner. Because i think that's such a interesting piece to like so many people like i need my partner to the have the exact same hobbies as i do but if you're just having activity partner in that's the only thing they were bringing to the table that you're not even having that deep connection because when you're skiing you're not even talking to sinn right like you're just like doing an activity so greg's like now. I don't agree with their ski. Ski touring like the myth about ski. Touring you actually get to ski a lot. You don't ski a lot. You mostly just walk and so you have a lot of time actually talking with someone It's actually. I think some of it's incredible. How quickly you can get to know. Some because there's no distractions. There's no nothing the same. Same thing with backpacking hiking. You're out in nature. Your cell phone doesn't work. There's nothing else going on your just huffing it. Basically and so what are you gonna do. You're gonna talk to that person. Actually the the the guy in bozeman our first date we went back country skiing in. It was incredible. Okay so you're proving my point at a very different way. I'll still take the same point. Is like you find. Then you could actually do the stuff you want to do. You need to have the balance that you're making room for that other person. Is i think like when you first said it about outdoor activity. A lot of it is so low or some of that. You're always doing that stuff on your own. It's hard to let another human in but it doesn't mean necessarily that you have to like be like i'm never going to do hobbies again. It's just finding that compromise balance that you can still do it in a way that lets in that partner totally a it's something i struggle with 'em struggling with right now in house struggled within the past dislike how much i've designed my whole life. Basically around being able to travel as much as possible in being outdoors as much as possible in like right now. That is super important to me. Is it going to be important to me in a decade. Yeah but is it going to be as important to me. Maybe not an like. I've definitely met guys before that we have overlapping kind of interest in that but that the other part of it just isn't there and i think as i've gotten older and as i thought more about it you know i care much more about whether somebody's going to be a good partner if they have you know like if they're warm and caring and thoughtful and all of the things you want in a partner rather than if they ski or not. I injured outdoor activity with them can evolve over time to like. Maybe it's not what it looks like today. Maybe there's like taking your kids sled ride or something like there's different levels of activity that can accomplish the same thing totally totally in you know. I would also love to introduce somebody to those things. They're not but it would be difficult for me to date someone who's not into being outside at all who's miserable in the cold. That would be very very tough. Not maybe not impossible did date data guy for a little bit who hated the cold. that's a whole nother story. He was an olympic bobsledder cold and hated the cold. It was basically cool runnings. Which said no i did not. We talked for like a month before. I mentioned the cool runnings to him on our first date. That was all that was running my head. I finally said it as like. I'm sure you get this all the time and i've waited a fucking month and i deserve some credit. I feel like that is such false advertising. I know right. I met him in in british columbia to and he's like no. I'm from the south and it's like meeting a pastry chef who sweets.

00:55:02 - 01:00:07

You're like way exactly. Yeah the part. That i struggle with right now is like there's a difference between interests and lifestyle. Yes i think. Interests are easier to find alignment. 'cause i can always say i don't like the cold but i'm willing to learn about why you love the cold and willing to learn how to ski better like these are things we can open ourselves up to lifestyle wise first of all. It's already hard enough to find a partner. Even if you lived in the same city all these variables have align and then you have to factor into these other things have to workout. As such as financial planning. This person will need to be financially stable enough to move from place to place and also the we'd have to have work that's allows them the freedom and remote work ability to to be flexible and they also have to have this Desire i guess or not even desire. But maybe they're not they don't have family that is tying them down like caring for the elderly or caring for an ill family member. I just feel like there's so many other lifestyle factors that need to align and. I'm just curious if that's something that you found in your dating world and i mean i think i've given up on like i. It's just not giving but like if somebody comes along. That is able to do all of the things that i do with me. That would be fucking amazing. I'm not holding my breath. i'm. I've been incredibly lucky and it's you know it's something i've wanted to do something i've pushed for but i've also had the opportunity to do it in. It's pretty rare and it's becoming more common. We'll see what the posts coveted world looks like but given all that. There's a lot of freedom and flexibility. That i have that most people will probably not ever had as the smallest side that all being said. I know a lot of people who have talked to me before and been like all. I would love to do what you do. It's amazing and you're just so lucky depending on your career. That can be a hard thing but definitely had that conversation with plenty of people who are. I've been like you can. You could totally do it. There's a cost associated but you could do it. See you could meet someone. That's in the same page in. They could you could give them cut like that. Push to do it. Or i think what i'm also hearing is like you're entering this next stage of your life that you're looking for something to be a little war you know putting a relationship i may be and you're like at least i've had this opportunity and it's not them going to give up on the outdoors going to give up on the travel. I'm just gonna fold in with the relationship. More at the forefront opposed to in the past where relationship was kind of a secondary that came with it totally. I still have my camper not going anywhere and change. They are and what they want to do. But i do agree with you like there is a cost of being always on the go or always so busy. We hear people even their in their cities that are just like too busy to fit in a day. that's like well. how are you expecting. You're ever gonna someone if you don't have time now. How are you going to have time for a relationship so it is something you kinda do need to carve out the space and it can be difficult when you don't see prospects in. You're like why. Would i do that when i could be doing x. y. and z. But i personally think you do kinda need that energy to attract that person for sure. I mean i think somebody who's going to be attracted to me hopefully will be stoked that have done all this stuff and Will want to do. At least some of it with me in the future. But i think i i think i swang from one extreme to another sf. And i i mean i still had my tendencies and it was gone a lot. Even in sf. But then i was like this isn't working up this. I'm gonna go out on a row on the road. And i'm just gonna do my thing and maybe somebody will come along hopefully and so now just trying to like find a balance of traveling sometimes having community giving space to be able to meet someone i feel like i'm being a little nihilistic about like meeting people on the road i think it is possible for shore is just think it is. It's difficult in. You need to really put effort into staying in touch with people you're interested in but then that's a whole nother issue because then you're investing a lot in a person that you don't really know if you guys are gonna get along in person that much and i definitely been in that situation to where invested a lot in someone only to find out that there are a lot more than than i am and matt. It was great when we were separated but when he notes when when she is getting real spending time together that they actually just bail and so for me.

01:00:07 - 01:05:01

I'm on the other end of that being like well shit. There's a year. I've not not entirely like the but it has a cost right. Emotional cost time call opportunity costs. I'm thinking that. Greg revealed to me before we start recording julie caught. This is greg. You did make a big move in bozeman. You bought a place that you're currently living in so that's very much even if you told me you're like i can always airbnb out if i'm not eager is still shows that you're putting down roots somewhere and he and i think that does make dating a little bit more intentional for people that you meet totally think i know myself and i need to let physically grew myself to places otherwise. I'm just gonna take off again like it's a way for myself to be like no year doing this. That is self awareness. Say like i think even in a transient city like san francisco in new york and some of the other major cities out there hearing someone like has a place that they own does show or they've been in the city for ten years or whatever it is does show that they are committed to where they wanna live. If that's something that you want. Also i guess now that you're in bosnia. Now that you have the place what do you think is gonna be different like outside of some of the more attention. -ality that you mentioned earlier. I mean i think my mindset is a little different like i have a routine which is not something i've had for the past four years basically three three four years. I have a gym. I go to look like. I'm starting to meet people around town in i found that my mindset around dating has changed a little bit as well. I'm a little bit more serious about trying to find a good match and just making sure that i'm being available to people trying to be around. Honestly it's very easy to be like. Would but i'm gone that weekend. I have a good feeling about this for you. Greg ereli thank you. I'm not as sir as you are. Because i moved from a big city where there's a lot of gay men that might be the only thing not in your favor and that being said person is very outdoorsy. I think part of me is like well. Yeah there's less options here but hopefully there's more the the kind of right option for me right. Well you hear abundance a choice all the time how. That's not always the best thing. And i think you hear this even like in big cities. It can be hard to date when there's zillions of process because there's always the bigger better brighter syndrome right so i think it might. I agree with you might let you focus more and really get to know the people that are in your surroundings and you said something though so key you said there may be more choices for people who are better fitted for me. You could be in a city with a million gay men who are just not your type. Who cares there's a million them when you rather be in a city. They're like ten but they're all your type and are on your same wavelength. Totally i think is a good segue to takeaways spell like one thing that's coming to my mind to just kind of on this exact topic is just because i don't there's ever a right or wrong way to d- like i do think you do need to know who you are in what you wanna do with your life. We had another guest From last season john. Kim say that before i was saying like it's where i'm going and who's coming with me and i think there is a little bit of a balance there because you can't be a hundred percent like it's all my way in that. I'm just going to see who comes along with me but the same time setting yourself up for success and being in the types of environments you wanna be in and being around the types of people that could be a good fit is kinda step number one so i think that it's not all or nothing you can't live like the life that's authentic to you but that my other takeaways you still need to make space for someone like if you're always on the run you're never like allowing someone to folds into the life like what you said was so key greg. It's even if it's like mundane things but just having a schedule that you're doing someone can be in that life with you but if you're always running from place to place it's very hard to get that person in that life and i think sometimes we just need to sit with things that can be you know even if your other road baby you are sitting in having all the deep thoughts the start again right wrong that you're on the road or you're in one location but just even if you're in one location running around all the time or when things get difficult even if you're in a relationship with things get difficult you're running. You do need to kind of sit with the with the uncomfortable feelings as much as the good things that come through with life totally like a lot of this stuff is like coping mechanisms ass right. There's some maladaptive stuff in there in. There's some stuff that's really positive as well.

01:05:01 - 01:10:03

But i think recognizing that can be a way to deal with it to give it a name and then when it's kind of acting up in a negative way that you can name it and be like that's what's happening. That's what's happening like. I need to like just turn the volume down for a little bit. I loved that. It's not changing your whole lifestyle. It's not changing. Who you are at the core but record is against what it comes up. You know your instinct is to run. It's to be like okay to sit with this in. See if i can get through it. Yeah i think the instincts for me is frequently to run but now turn the volume down on that voice in just be like no. This isn't what you want long-term this is going to prevent you from getting that easy. Wild long-term absolutely something. I think about all the time is we're constantly running away would have. We shifted that phrase to running into instead of running away from my home town running away from the city that i hate. I'm running into a new place. I'm running into new people and that way we kind of feel like we're not escaping is. We're more open to experiencing I'm also interested in this idea of like. We mentioned this word intention. -ality quite a bit nothing and a lot of times. We do things without intentions. We don't set the intentions. Sometimes we run away from things and even if you set the intention of running away from something at least. It's an intention but we don't even do that. It's sort of this like just a reaction we have and then we just do it. What if we were to be more intentional about the life style that we choose to lead. I want to live in nomadic lifestyle but because my intention is to experience the world as much as i can and feel as much love as much as i can. That's an intention and something that is a great about intentions is that we can always change it and i hate that. Some in today's society were so tied to our identity that when we think about changing our intentions were thinking about out- does this changed my identity like greg. You're tied to a nomadic lifestyle. So now you feel like you have to fill identity right because everybody knows me as someone they can't catch so i got worse my next place to go but also know that your identity changes all the time. You can be nomad greg today but you can also be routed greg tomorrow who cares. What other gamble thanks. We're just like all constantly trying to fulfil these identity roles and expectations when we forget. Everything's constantly evolving. So i love where you are right now greg because not only have you evolved to a new. I know stage in life. But you haven't given up your core values which is still experiencing the world as much as you can't. It's a new chapter. You're just evolving a bed. Definitely a new chapter store awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing all about this do chapter. Hopefully this gave a lot of food for thought. Whatever people's life goals are. I think like the whole thing about the new chapters there is. It's okay to have a chapter. That is more about you in self-discovery sometimes you need that chapter to get to the next chapter that you are looking for more of you know something serious to settle down and really plant those route. So i'm a firm believer that kind of everything plays the way it's supposed to and there's not really any right or wrong timelines for people in people discount andy to zig zag at whatever pace makes sense for them. Yeah no none of this is wasted time at your learning all the time and we're learning from you as you're in bozeman who i mean. I have no regrets. My time on the road was amazing. And it had just like everything else had its ups and its downs. Keep us updated on all of your adventures even if all your ventures are evolved around bozeman on. Were stoked to hear that too. I'm going to start looking at real estate in bozeman because apparently that's like the hot market right. How thanks for that tip. Thank you very much please please. Don't all of those will say that it's like exiled for a booth please please overberg bozeman me right right soviet. I'm just kidding. The word is out. I mean it's been in the new york times obviously obviously databases at the same level as plitt buddy the new york times. Thank you for sharing your journey and your story with us for any listeners. Right now we are still booking guests for our season. You have a story of evolution. by greg's we love to hear it. And while you're sending us your story online just go to dateable. Podcast dot com. You can also give us a review in apple. Podcasts five stars. Hey just you know just trying to be. Try to be giving right now. Let's do five stars and just like a line or two about why you love us.

01:10:03 - 01:12:03

Why you love the show and what you've learned from the show or you what you've learned from greg. Those reviews really help us shape our seasons into shape our content and the better reviews the more reviews the better our content. It just goes hand in hand that way. All right okay. We're going to wrap this up. Thank you enjoy your new chapter and we will be keeping in touch for sure. You're not getting away from us. This time And we're going to wrap this up olo the dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic. Podcast network find more podcasts. You'll love at frolic dot media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at database. Podcast tag. an any post with the hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those post then. Head over to our website dateable podcasts dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium y series. We're we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums for also downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts platforms. Your back is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable. Hey i'm katie. Grison a trail and ultra marathon runner sponsored by new balance. I'm also a creative professional wife to my life and running partner dominic and a very proud mom of two girls. I i got a little crazy. Especially after battling postpartum injury and abdominal tumor. Running is still a huge part of my identity. Legitimately improved my mental health. I'm working my way back to racing but for now but still finding peace on the trail. Go beyond the run at new balance dot com.

Dateable Podcast
Yue Xu & Julie Krafchick

Is monogamy dead? Are we expecting too much of Tinder? Do Millennials even want to find love? Get all the answers and more with Dateable, an insider’s look into modern dating that the HuffPost calls one of the ‘Top 10 podcasts about love and sex’. Listen in as Yue Xu and Julie Krafchick talk with real daters about everything from sex parties to sex droughts, date fails to diaper fetishes, and first moves to first loves. Whether you’re looking to DTR or DTF, you’ll have moments of “OMG-that-also-happened-to-me” to “I-never-thought-of-it-that-way-before.” Tune in every Wednesday to challenge the way you date in this crazy Dateable world.