If you want to connect better on your dates, we're about to drop some techniques as we chat with journalist Celeste Headlee about how we can have conversations that matter. Heck even if you've been married for years, this episode is going to help hone those relational skills. We discuss how technology is helping and hurting communication, the differences between small talk and date talk, and how to have a better conversation with anyone – even if you don't agree with a damn thing they are saying.
TW: We discuss fertility / egg freezing in the intro of this episode. Skip this section if this is triggering in any way.
Check out Celeste's TED talk '10 Ways to have a better conversation' and get a copy of her book 'We Need to Talk: How to have conversations that matter' today.
Thank you to our partners for this episode:
BetterHelp: Get 10% off your first month of online therapy at betterhelp.com/dateable with the code DATEABLE
Murad Skincare: You can find Murad’s line of skincare products at Sephora, Ulta and Murad.com. Find the digital magazine at wellconnected.murad.com and the podcast “Well Connected by Murad’ wherever you listen to podcasts!
S14E2: Death to the Daterview w/ Celeste Headlee
00:00:01 - 00:05:04
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
Hello Friends, welcome to another episode of the dateable podcast where we dig deep into modern dating, people's behavior, and how we can get rid of bad dating behavior and start praising people for good dating behavior. And this is what this season is about. Season 14, hope you all like the first episode that was quite the banger. So good. We got so much feedback that it made people look at themselves in ways they'd never did before. And feel good that the multiple voices inside of you are all of you. You're not crazy. It's just crazy. So much is the relationship with yourself. And I feel like in this season too, whether you're dating and a relationship, whatever your status is, that is a common theme that we're going to keep bringing home. At the end of the day, that's what makes the difference. It really does. And whenever data say, it's my city, it's the apps. It's the people on the apps, but then you listen to everybody complaining about the exact same thing. You start to wonder, um, are we all guilty of that said behavior? Because we are. So we can only take responsibility for ourselves and this is why Julie and I have really refocused the content of this podcast on a lot of the self improvement material because that's the only thing we have control over. It is ourselves. Yeah, we hear for this week's episode. We hear this all the time that one of the biggest struggles in modern dating. You know, there's a lot of struggles. So it's not the only one, but one of them is getting past a third date. For some reason, it feels like quite at accomplishment to get past a third date in today's world. And we hear often the reason at this point. It's not that there's no attraction. Usually by date three, someone's already kind of established that piece. It's that there's no emotional connection. Those are like the dreaded words that get sent to your text. We will not be going out again because there is no emotional connection. Have you ever gotten that before you? I've sent that text before. I sure have. And I sent it because I didn't know what else to say. It just seemed like the only logical thing to send. It's right. I mean, when I sent that text, I remember the guy kept trying to convince me otherwise. So he tried to call me and ask me, what if we did this? What if I was all in? What if we went on vacation? But to me, my mind was already made up that there was just nothing there. And I think a lot of times this happens when we can't get past the date talk, the data of you. And it feels like we're all the same date, again. And again, and again. But the flip side, I don't think I've actually gotten that there's no emotional connection. I think by flip side was maybe there's too much emotional connection. What? A trauma dump. You know what I mean? I think some people slip on the other side. Of course, Julie would get too much emotional connection. Well, I swear some of the dates where I thought we had the most riveting emotional connection. That's what I got ghosted. When we beat ourselves. And I think it was too much too soon. So I think the flip side of not enough emotional connection is just too much of the other direction. And then both of them just prove that you're just not connecting on a personal level. It's either you're not being vulnerable at all or you're being too vulnerable regardless of whoever is in front of you. And neither of those feel customized to the person, this is why we have our guests on this episode, Celeste headley, who's a journalist. She's a renowned journalist. She is so great at talking to people, conversing with them, asking the right questions. And this is what she's basically known for now, is how to be a great conversationalist. I feel like I learned a lot from this episode. And we talk all the time. Yeah, we do. But there's a difference between talking and being a good conversationalist. And we dive into all of that. And it is a skill that we're never taught. We're expected to just magically connect with other people. And sometimes you do need to take a step back and think about it in a different way. And this episode does just that. I think there's different conversations that happen at the early stage of dating, but even as you progress a relationship.
00:05:05 - 00:10:02
There's a lot of hard conversations that are kind of come up and this is all about how do you have conversations that matter. And in what medium we go into that too a lot, tech can facilitate and also hurt connections, so that's like an interesting facet of this convo too. And if you have just one takeaway from this entire interview, is that you've been lied to. We've been lied to, that having a good conversation or being a good conversationalist means you ask all the right questions and you ask a lot of questions. And I can't say this enough that some of us going to dates with a list of questions to ask someone and we feel like the more questions we ask the better that's not necessarily the case in Celeste is going to tell you what is the number one factor for being a good conversationalist and it's not asking a ton of questions. Now I was thinking to after doing this episode of just a lot of stuff that's going on in my life of just how the questions change. Throughout the different stages. Share this with the UA obviously, probably not everyone yet, but I am actually starting the egg freezing procedure. So that's going to be interesting. Hopefully, I'll get too crazy at the next week. I'll hopped up on hormones. We're here to say heroin hopped up on heroin and hormones. I'll hopped up on hormones. And I have to say it has been so it's been very interesting watching watching your entire journey up until this point, even though it hasn't even started. You can start it yet. Because there are so many variables right now. You're balancing so many fucking things. I can not say this enough when I say I admire you for where you're going through because this is a lot of decisions that you have to make. All at once. Yeah, well, I think the most fascinating part of it too is that it had my partner, I talk about things that we, if we were going by traditional timelines, you would meet, to have the DTR, be committed, move in together, then get married. Then discuss kids. But you are flipping that script and we definitely discuss this a lot at length. And it brought up a lot of things. And we actually had difficult conversations, but ultimately came out ahead from them. So I think in general, sometimes it's easy to avoid difficult conversations and in a way I'm glad that this was like a catalyst to bring up those combos because we might not have had them as soon. But it also it's fascinating because we are reversing the order on a lot of this stuff with today's world and technology and all the abilities we have. So while you're figuring out if you like each other, you're also trying to figure out do we want to make babies together, those are two very different sides of the coin, but well, to me, what is baffling is when you said, you know, like these are topics that you may, in a normal timeline, you would talk about later in a relationship, but then to me, I'm like, why do we delay these conversations in a relationship? Because ultimately, that is what's going to come up anyway. You know what it is, it's not that we haven't had these convos, but they felt more abstract. Right. This made it feel real because something was happening. And I think that's the difference. It's really easy to imagine your future with someone and even tell them about the future. But when it actually comes down to doing the steps, that's when it shows if you're ready or not. Yes, yes. And we talked about this too, is everybody says, oh yeah, I see a future with a partner and kids and a family and all that. But we don't stop to think about the steps to getting there. And that's the stuff that really matters because that's the journey to getting to that, I don't know. These future milestones. So I'm curious to know now that you had your first appointment. What went down today? What is the beginning of this entire process? Yeah, I mean, for any one, of course, this is just my experience, not a universal experience, but the first haven't actually ejected any medication yet. So if you think I sound weird, that's just how I sound. It's not because of any medication. I have like four awards some people, though, because I have heard one of my best Friends, she was in love with everyone when she did it. So she was like talking about a mutual friend and she was really excited about him and I never heard her talk about this guy before and I'm like, are you sure or like an ex, the sky that she was blatantly not into like a month earlier? Just thinking about revisiting things with him and I'm like, maybe you should make any decision what's the meds or cleared? Just an idea. Who knows what next next week might get a little interesting.
00:10:02 - 00:15:00
We'll see how it goes. But it basically can be anywhere from 8 to 12 days. When you start, it's how fast your body responds. The next time we record, I will be on meds deeper. So we'll see if I get crazier as we go. This is a real life science experiment. Yeah. On the fly. Listeners. They're listening. They're like, is she getting crazier each week or not? And how do you know when you're when you got in the retrieval? You go in for appointments. So I'm not the one making the call. If they tell me to wait a day, I'm not going to be like, no, I need to go down. I hate saying this so much because people do it all the time on their own. But I think I would be a lot more overwhelmed if I was doing it on my own. Having my partner there have a Kim that I know will help me with these shots. It definitely felt good. Not to say you can't do it on your own. I have tons of Friends that have done it on their own, and it is totally doable. But for me, I think that's the part of the most nervous about too, is doing the shots. So I think having that support was really, really great. It's a shot in your abdomen, right? Yes. That is scary. That's a long ass needle. I witnessed my friend may do it multiple times. And it's a good thing she's an ER doctor, so she's like, whatever, needles. I see it all the time, but man, I almost fainted, just watching her do it. Well, you have to grab your stomach fat. And I was like, well, this is the only time it pays not to have flat abs. They said it's more painful. I'm like, have joking. They said it's more painful, the less fat you have on your abs. Because you have to grab the fat. And then how long how often do you do the every day every day? Yeah. Until retrieval. Yes, so 8 to 12 days. So yeah, we'll keep you all posted. It won't be every last detail, but if there's any questions too in the Facebook group, I'm happy to answer at least again my perspective only everyone has different experiences. Good luck to you and your partner on that this morning, Julie and I were on a call and it was right before her. Appointment and she was like, sorry y'all, I gotta go, not because I need to go to another meeting, but because I'm getting, I'm freezing my eggs, okay? Well, really gonna make way over. He was waiting downstairs and I was gonna be real late. I gotta go freeze my eggs. And what's the best because everyone on the call was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, get it. We get it go. Please. Stop the timing. I was like fuck. It is getting late. It is getting late. Something you said to me also earlier in the week you were saying, we're basically freezing time. And I thought that was actually very profound, because to me it's like a I used to think of as like a preventative measure in a way. It's like you're preventing from infertility to happen in the future. But you're saying it's freezing time and the fact that you can have you almost like you can have a little bit more time to enjoy with your partner without kids before you make that final decision. I mean that, okay, so I do want to clarify that this is by no means a sure thing. And I've been told from many doctors. I could do this whole thing and get nothing from it. One retrieve nothing, but also they don't think it will be nothing, but they don't know what the quality is going to be like until I use it. So even if you get a ton of eggs, obviously the more the better chance that one will be good, but they've said that there were situations where someone would come with a ton of eggs and none of them were viable. So putting that out there that I hate when people say it's an insurance policy, it actually bothers me because it is not. And I hate when people say it's a sure thing. You are buying a better shot down the line. That was the decision. And I mean, a big piece of this too is that I did get some fertility benefits. So would I have made this decision as much without that? I don't know. You know, that was a driver. I won't lie about that. And there is a very real financial side to this whole thing. So there's that piece of it. The other side is that is primarily why we decided to do this because we've talked about the potential to have kids and as you heard in the episode we did with Kate Kennedy. I'm still not a 100% sure. But the more and more I'm with my partner, the more I can visualize it. That being said, we're both not ready right this minute. Right. So I think the idea is if there is a way that we can maximize our chance in any way, then we'll take that chance. And that's how I'm viewing it. And again, there's financial elements. I don't want to downplay that. Everyone has to beat the decision for themselves. Because you in theory could be throwing away this money.
00:15:01 - 00:20:01
Right. Right. Well, yeah. Shit. Things women have to go through. And I just said that. And then there's egg versus embryo. There's so many differing variations. We had all those conversations. It's a lot. It's a lot. And this is just the egg freezing part. You still have to retrieve and all of that. Yeah. That's the thing in two years you could go and nothing could happen. Or the more positive spin is you could be trying and it's not working and you go and this is your saving grace. You just don't know, but it's again buying a better shot. Yeah, an option. Well, happy stuff. We're going into larger stuff people, but you know the heavy convos are important also. Very important. And this is like, I don't want to say tests of a relationship, but it is. It is. It took our relationship to the next level for sure. It has to. No fuckboy is going to be like, yeah, let's free drugs. Let's put a shot at your stomach. I'll take you to your doctor's appointments. Yeah. No, it's next level. So now we know your boyfriend's not a fuckboy, so that's for sure. I wasn't that concerned, but yes. They're like, no, I need to take a shot at the bar not at the office. He did pass the test. Well, yeah. I don't even know how to transition out of this. So I'm just going to say, change can you do it? I'm just going to change here. Should we talk about the news that we were at the news this week? We were on the skin podcast and a few of you also listened to the scam, which is so fun. That we were we did not realize that World War three was going to break out. At the time of our interview, timey wise, it was very interesting to be part of the same episode about what's happening in the Ukraine. But we were at the tail end of that episode and I hope we provided some lightheartedness to that episode. I kind of feel like that's our role in news, because the same thing happened to you with MSNBC. It was all about homelessness and drug use overdoses. And then it's to Valentine's Day with UA and Julie for the date of podcasts. I think that is our role is to lighten the mood. We're still providing information. Information, we're still in the news. We're still newsworthy, but it's a little lighter information. Yeah. We took it pretty seriously because the whole topic was about scams. And Tinder swindler, what's happening with these romance scams as they call it. And there's been a rise in romance scam cases. So it is a very serious topic, but also just in comparison to what's going on in the world today. It was not as serious. Maybe it was more serious two weeks ago when they were planning, but right, right, exactly. Yeah. But that is a good call out because we do want to do an episode about safety and dating. It's something we've been wanting to do for a long time. It's about how do we find the right people to be part of this and we were thinking that we could do it more as an expose bottle. You might remember our episodes like the sex party or Ashley Madison. We did a few of these or the start of COVID dating during COVID-19 we did one like this where we clipped together a bunch of people's stories to tell more of a holistic story. So if you have had an experience getting scammed, whether you don't even have to have wired money, but someone may have just approached you or in some ways scammed you on a dating app, drop us a line and we'd love to talk to you and see if there's a fit for this expose feature. So you can always email us at hello at dateable podcast, dot com, and also we'll put a post up on Instagram and Facebook too. So if you've been here yourself, let's hear from you. Yes. Let's raise a red flags to during our interview with the skim. I said something that I am currently experiencing. And I don't know if anybody else is experiencing this, but I know my partner and I are seeing an influx in LinkedIn requests by Chinese people who have a very strong pedigree so they either say they went to Stanford or Harvard and they work in engineering and they have all these credentials and their profile photos are very attractive, but when you click on their profile to me, it was just like this seems fake for some reason, but it made sense because I think they're building up their LinkedIn profiles so to validate their identity when you search for them if you match with them on dating apps. So this is like their way of scamming people and dating apps is by building up their online credibility. So just watch out for those two because if you say yes to these people, you're basically part of their scam. You are enabler in a way.
00:20:01 - 00:25:01
So I was out last night with two friends to buy at the battery, which is a social club at SF. And they were talking about because I was telling them about the skin and they were saying that they noticed an influx of these people on dating apps. And they said it was really funny because they would be they would use the prompts either their photo wouldn't match the prom. It would just be like something like show me your best self and that it would be like an ice cream cone. Yeah. Or the guy would say something. Like this is my fatty side. Did he have this stoic look like deep into the camera? It just didn't match up, but it wasn't ironic either. It just, it was clear that someone had put together this profile real fast in one of my friends said they were always from another country. She said too that she matched with a few of them and they would immediately unmatch her if she didn't respond in a certain amount of time. So my guess too is they probably were just trying to do the hot leads. They probably had so many people they matched with. They're gonna get one fucker who's gonna be like, yeah, this sounds great. Remember that text I got when I was in New York, I showed you some girl who knows somebody texted me and said, hey Keanu, this is so this is heaven from hinge we matched. Sorry, I'm running a little late. Something like that, sorry I'm running a little late. I just want to let you know, and then I responded back and said, this is a wrong number. And she's like, oh, it is. But do you like to have fun? Do you want to keep chatting? Like, what is going on? Well, you don't know who's on the other side of this ever. But that being said, we don't want to discourage people from dating apps. Just be smart about it. Yeah. I mean, the reality is the majority of people are on there for the right attention kids. Yes. But, you know, when things seem too good to be true, maybe take a step back and say, is it too good to be true? Yeah. And if they ask for money, say fuck you, just say that. Before we move off this topic, completely have you watched inventing Anna because I'm obsessed with this show. Do you like the show? Okay, I started season or the first episode, it was a little slow for me, but I might have to just keep trying because she is really fascinating to me. She is so smart. For anyone that's that doesn't know about this. It's basically another swindler. It wasn't geared to dating. It was that she was in the Manhattan elite social. Yeah. She's like a socialite in Manhattan. And she would stay at hotels. She didn't have a department. She was from Germany. So it was always that her bank accounts weren't working, but she had a massive trust fund. So she had this illusion that she was super rich, but wasn't paying for any of her bills. And totally screwed one of her best friends. I put her in major debt at her company credit card. It's a fascinating story. It falls so in line with Tinder swindler. It's just even more interesting to me because these people believe they were friends with this person. It's gotta be so crazy to think that someone was living this alternate reality. And this was not them. Are you just shocked by how knowledgeable they swindlers are? I mean, look at the Tinder swindler. He knew everything about the diamond industry. Yeah. He knew everything about that business because he studied about it. And the same with Anna, she knows everything about art. She can be very informed and knowledgeable that way. So for them to be in the positions or in, they must have just studied their asses off to be part of this high society and really blend in. All the other stuff that she was doing, she was changing her voice on and out to be a lawyer or something. She was doing so crazy as shit. But yeah, anyways, we won't go on a tangent too long, especially for people that haven't watched the show. I would recommend watching it. It is a little slow. There were times that I said to myself am I still on the same episode? Right. Like two hours, but I think all in all, it was a really good show. Okay, I will definitely try to watch that. I do want to give a shout out to my new friend Nick, who I met recently who listens to the podcast, speaking of swindler, he also goes by a different name. So I guess I'm close enough with him to know his real name is Nick. And he's listening. He knows what I'm talking about. He goes by a different name, not to swindle. Is it his middle name? Because a lot of people do that. Nope, the other name he goes by was a completely made up name that someone else gave him. Well, hi Nick, if that is your real name, I don't even know. And also, we do correspond on WhatsApp, which is the ultimate scam app, right? The story, the board warriors. I think you ain't getting swindled, guys. Oh my God, give me, give me back my $10,000. Damn it. I thought I was smarter than that.
00:25:04 - 00:30:01
Oh, okay, that's it. That's a transition. Shall we do a question? Let's do a quick question. Here's a quick question. Someone wrote in and said, I've been seeing someone where they really like texting me. I really do not like texting. Is this a situation where I should say something about it or try to just get better at texting? That is so funny. Texting, I don't love texting. I'm in the same boat. I do understand some people like to communicate over text. In my personal opinion, this is between two people aligning how they prefer to communicate. If you don't let the other person know that you don't like texting, they may just feel like you're aloof or that you're ghosting them or you're ignoring them. So it is better to over communicate in this case and maybe you can say something like, I'm just not really into texting, but I would love to get on a call with you or I really like I really like video calls and kind of just like negotiate your way on just aligning your communication. You need to present an alternative. Because if you don't present an alternative, it will come off that your dot interested in subway. And the reality is that texting is a big part of dating culture, even if you were hanging out every single day of the week, which we don't necessarily recommend at the start of something, then you still, there's going to be times that people are interpreting your texts as a sign of interest. And I think we can pretend that we don't want it to be that way, but that is the reality, the amount of messages we get about this person has this texting behavior, they're not just back. I've been there before too that I've judged if someone is interested based on texting. So the more you can communicate the better, the more you can provide alternatives the better, the more you can text for certain reasons to set up plans, but then if you want to actually have a conversation, you do a phone call. I think that's what you need to negotiate with this partner. Hope that answer your question. Okay, well, we have talked a lot today, so we'll be really quick on the announcements at dateable podcast, is Instagram, loving the time of Corona is our Facebook group, quick caveat, sounding board is our premium Facebook group and beyond Facebook group. That's where all the magic happens of the weekly sound ops, office hours with UA and I, we have noticed a lot of people requesting access to that Facebook group. You do need to sign up for the sounding board in then we will by all means let you in. So if you're pending, it is not that we don't want you in the sounding board. It's that you just need to actually sign up first. So that's the quick PSA. And let's do a few quick messages from our partners. This episode is brought to you by murad skin care, a line of clinically proven cruelty free products that meet the meticulous standards for safety, efficacy and care. You expect from a doctor. One of my favorite products is the invisa scar resurfacing treatment, which I've already seen some results from from using it for just a few weeks. Founded by doctor Howard murad, who is a board certified dermatologist and trained pharmacist, recognized around the world as a visionary for his unmatched scientific innovations, murad has also launched a digital magazine and a podcast called well connected by murad, connecting the dots between science and wellness, find the digital magazine at well connected dot murad dot com and the podcast well connected by murad wherever you listen to your podcast and for data listeners only go to Mira dot com and enter the code dateable for 20% off and free shipping for orders of $60 or more. Again, that's murat dot com and enter the code data date for 20% off and free shipping for $60 or more. This episode is sponsored by better help online therapy. Relationships take work, especially the most important one you have in your life, your relationship with yourself. A lot of us will drop anything to go help someone we care about. We'll go out of our way to treat other people well, but how often do we give ourselves the same treatment? So this month, better help online therapy wants to remind you that you matter just as much as everyone else does, and therapy is a great way to make sure you show up for yourself. For me, therapy has been an eye opening experience because I didn't realize how much I needed the support and tools to process my feelings. Better help is online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in person therapy, and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people have used better help online therapy. This podcast is sponsored by better help and dateable listeners get 10% off their first month at better help dot com slash dateable. That's BET TER HELP dot com slash DAT ABL E okay, let's get into it with Celeste.
00:30:07 - 00:35:06
So we're going to get right into this conversation. This is what I've learned. Being a good speaker does not mean that you're a good conversationalist. I learned that recently. You can be really good at talking to people and at people, but you're not great with talking with people. And that's what a good conversationalist would be is that it's a two way street. And that's why it's so important that on dates, we learn to be better conversationalists versus better speakers. And that's why we have Celeste headley on our show today. Thank you for joining us. Who is she? She's an internationally recognized journalist and radio host, professional speaker and an author of the bestselling book we need to talk, how to have conversations that matter. And do nothing, how to break away from overworking overdoing and under living. Her latest is speaking of race, why everyone needs to talk about racism and how to do it and her TEDx talk ten ways to have a better conversation which I've personally watched 5 times already has been viewed over 26 million times. Welcome to our show. So let's live in Rockville, Maryland, and originally from a Los Angeles she's been in Rockville for four years. She's in her 50s and divorced and here she is with us. Hi, thanks. There's all my demographic information. Hello. We're so excited to have you because this is definitely a topic that comes up a lot. Why am I not connecting with people even though I'm having these conversations? Yeah, interestingly enough for a few years I was the conversation consultant for plenty of fish. The dating app and this was exactly what they wanted me to do for them was teach people how to talk. And the number one problem I had was that everyone would be looking for me to tell them, okay, what do I say? What questions do I ask? And I'm like, that's not how this is not how this works. Bullet points. Exactly, exactly. There's not some questions magic questions you can memorize or conversation starters you can memorize. That's just not how it works. Maybe we can expand on that because we've heard of people bringing these prompt cards on dates, just so they can have the conversation. Why do these things do these prompts or like if people were to memorize a list of questions? Why does this not work in facilitating connection? I mean, because the cards are, they're not responsive and flexible. They're not present in that moment, right? You're going to get so many who says something like, how long does it take you to do your hair in the morning and they're like, I have on a wig, right? I mean, I don't have hair. Right. So you know, I just remember Dolly Parton at one point. Somebody in the audience said, how long does it take to do your hair? And she says, oh, lord, I don't know. I'm never there. Like, those questions are designed for some generic person that doesn't actually exist. Right. Right? Like if you want to ask great questions, you have to sit down and really look at the person in front of you. Look at them. What are they wearing? What does their hair look like? Do they seem like as though they've just come from a busy day? Do they seem relaxed? Are they wearing jewelry? Does their shoes have mud on it? Do they have dog hair or cat hair on their pants? Like, look at the person that you're supposed to be curious about. And then ask your question based on what you see. Not insensitively. Not about their race or identity or body size or shape, but about the things they have chosen for themselves. Everybody chooses what they're going to put on in the morning. They choose their tattoos. They choose their jewelry. They choose generally what side they're going to park their hair, whether they straighten their hair or curl it, they choose their shoes. The things that they choose for themselves, that's fair game. Love it. So in your TED Talk, there was this really interesting quote that you put out there from a teacher that was in the Atlantic Paul barnwell that said conversational competence might be the single, most overlooked skill we failed to teach. And I could not agree more. I would love to hear your opinion, why do you think having sustaining coherent confident conversations is so important? And so failed in our system. Yeah, so those are two separate questions, right? It's important because that is the basis of our entire species survival. So for a really long time, our evolutionary psychologists and biologists were trying to figure out how homo sapiens came to thrive. There was at some .6 different species of humans and Neanderthals were super impressive, giant brains way smarter than we give them credit for strong agile. They had a rudimentary form of dentistry. So how did homo sapiens who are, let's be honest, pretty fragile, you know, the air conditioning doesn't come on and we start in trouble. How did we make it? So what they originally, what they eventually found out was that homo sapiens thrives because we are the best species earth has ever seen when it comes to communication and collaboration.
00:35:07 - 00:40:09
It means that we can do incredible tasks like take down a bison because we're pack animals because we can have that really sophisticated communication to find out who's the best on a horse who can think geometrically and peel one animal off of a herd who's the best has the best aim with a spear. That's the kind of high level communication we can have. But in order for that to work, you have to have empathy for other people. That's how that works. Otherwise, you know, we survive because when you're messing with one human being, it means you're usually messing with more. And that's because we have empathy for others, which means we will help them out even if there's nothing in it for us. So when we talk about communication and conversation, sometimes we think of this as a soft skill. It is not a soft skill. It is the hardest of skills. By which I mean that after you take care of our food, our shelter and our water belonging is the number one need that a human being has. So that's the first part of the thing, is that's why this is so important. There is nothing more important. The reason why we fail at it is because we focus almost entirely on the talking point, right? Like that's what's pleasurable to us. We love it. It makes us feel good. Also, think about all the schools you've been to and how many times you were offered a course in public speaking. Right. But never a course in listening. Right. And yet listening is the number one most difficult part of the transaction. We struggle to listen. And that's always been true of us, like the seminal research and listening began in the 1950s, and even then the guy who's called the father of listening, a man named Ralph Nichols, his takeaway after decades was human beings don't listen well. Like we don't listen well, we have to be we have to study it. We have to practice it. It has to be a discipline. It was because it takes energy and it takes focus. And a conversation you started this by saying good talkers and not the same thing as good conversations. This is why. Because to be a good conversationalist, you have to be as good at listening as you are at talking. How do you think communication is being affected by the way we use technology these days? And I heard someone make a very interesting observation. We do so much texting these days that we're texting for the future selves. We're not texting for the current present self. What do you think is happening with technology and the way we communicate? There's a few things. First I'll say that we are wasting all of our social energy. That's number one. Everybody has a finite amount of social energy each day. Let's say that you have a hundred units of social energy, right? So here's the thing about social media. It uses up all that social energy, but it gives you nothing in return. It doesn't give you all that healthy biofeedback that raises your oxytocin in your serial serotonin and ups your energy level and lowers your heart rate and lowers your stress markers. It gives you nothing. In fact, it tends to make those things worse. So you go on Facebook and have Facebook, but what are you, Twitter, or Instagram, or TikTok or whatever, and you're just throwing your coins into that slot machine. And getting absolutely nothing back. Whereas, and then let's say you get home and your partner or roommate or whoever says starts to try to talk to you and you go, I'm too tired. Yes. Right. Or you think I need to call my friend, but I'm not going to do it tonight, 'cause I'm too tired. Well, of course you are. You have just dumped all your social energy down the toilet. So that's number one. That's fascinating, because we hear all the time from people that are just frustrated by dating apps. And I think it's the same, right? Is there expending this energy and they're not getting that feeling back? And that's why there's this coveted meeting in real life when in reality it's actually the same way to meet someone and you can form a relationship, but it probably the immediate gratification is probably a lot more for the real life interaction. Yeah, even if you don't like the person you will get that solid feedback that makes you feel better as a human being, we are beautifully tuned in order to take positive feedback from other even if you wave to someone on the street, your mood improves and your heart rate workers. Even just that. Here's the other thing I will say about social media. So writing of any kind is just not the same as speaking it in your voice. And I'll give you just a couple data points to demonstrate this. The first one is this research in which they presented people with an opinion that they disagreed with. And they presented it to them in a bunch of different formats. But when they read this opinion, they disagreed with. In any format, online, social media, in a book in a newspaper when they read it, they were more likely to believe that the person disagreed because they were stupid, and they didn't understand the core concepts. Now, when they heard somebody say that opinion in their own voice, they were more likely to believe the other person disagrees because they have different perspective and experiences.
00:40:09 - 00:45:01
Oh, that's why so much gets lost in text. Yes. And data gap convos. Same thing. So that's number one. Your voice literally humanizes you. In other words, the sound of my voice allows you to recognize me as a human being. I said two data points, I'm going to say three. Okay. Keep them cute. Two, we take a huge amount of meaning from the tone of someone's voice and their body language or facial expressions. So there's three parts of meaning. When you are conveying a message, there's the vocabulary you choose, then there's your body language includes your facial expressions. And there's a tone of voice. So when you're texting, you're literally getting one third of the meaning. And it's the same thing in email, which is why email is more likely to escalate conflict. It's more likely to increase miscommunication than a phone call. It's also way less efficient, by the way. The phone call is much more efficient because I'll give you an example. When's the last time you called a friend? And they answered the phone and said, hello, and you said, what's wrong? You wouldn't know that through text at all. Think about that. How fast you have picked up on some extremely sophisticated information. Third data point, sorry. Third data point is just that. We have evolved so specifically to take all that meaning and expression through people's voices that it just hasn't writing hasn't caught up. And I'll give this to you in the form of an example of apologies. So we know that going from I'm sorry, all the way to getting to your forgiven and being able to move on. It's a pretty complicated cognitive and emotional process. But we know that it has happened when this part of your brain lights up. This is the part of your brain that's sort of associated with compassion and empathy, right? And also self control. We know by watching people's brains that when they read and apology, you know how we love to send apologies through emails. When you read an apology, this part of your brain never lights up. Ever. No activity whatsoever. When you get so many goes and talks to you or calls you on the phone, which they avoid and why, because it's hard. Like you're afraid they're going to get mad at you, you don't know what to say. You feel anxious about it, you feel nervous, and then the other person sees you or hears you struggling, and compassion part of their brain lights up, and the process that leads towards forgiveness and moving on begins. I asked one scientist if it was possible that at some point written communication would equal voice communication. Yeah. And she said, maybe in 5 to 10,000 years. Oh, I'm just 10,000. That's 5 to ten. So not in our fucking lifetime. Or our kids or our grandkids. That's exactly what I was going to ask you, but before I go into that, is there a name for the part of the brain for anyone that's listening? The right tempo parietal junction. Okay. Repeat that back, Julie. Take your right finger, put it on top of your right ear, move it up just about an inch, move it back just about an inch and then massage it. That's the visual that everyone needs. They do. So that what you just said about the 5 to 10,000 years. That was going to be my next question, because the reality is that technology is here to stay, right? That people are leveraging dating apps where I can now connect the dots from what you were just saying of why it's a struggle, right? You don't know if someone just had a terrible day with their messaging you. You don't know what's going on for them at all. That being said, how can we work with the tools we got? Are there ways that people can know the limitations but still make it work for them? I want people to continue to use technology technology. I love technology. But I want people to be intentional about how they use it. Right? So if all I'm doing is asking a straightforward question, what do you want for dinner tonight? Chinese, great. Your email or your texting or your slack or whatever, perfect. If you need to send an agenda or a bunch of details, email, perfect. If you want to schedule a meeting and you're going to use a doodle, awesome. But let's say that I send a text. And I say, hey, just checking in how are you doing? And the text I get back from my friend is, so, so I immediately pick up the phone. Because I know that that text is not useful when it comes to any kind of emotional or nuanced conversation. And I hate to keep dumping studies on your head, but we love studies. We love it. We love it. Keep it coming. So I'll give you another example. When I talk about intentionality, they did that one study in which they got a whole bunch of younger girls. I think they're all teen teenage girls. And they asked them to do a very stressful thing. They asked them to solve math problems in front of an audience.
00:45:02 - 00:50:07
Oh gosh. Yeah. So they measured their stress levels all the way through, and they divided the girls into four different groups. When they came off stage for some girls, their mom was waiting for them backstage. For some girls, they got a phone call from their mother. For some girls, they got a text from their mother, and then some girls absolutely no contact whatsoever. They just walked back to stage and that was it. Now, the outer ends of that are unsurprising, right? The girl whose mother was waiting backstage, her stress levels dropped almost immediately. And the girl who walked backstage to nothing, her spirit levels remained extraordinarily high. What's surprising may be that the girl who got a phone call from her mother, her stress levels also dropped almost equally to the one whose mother was waiting backstage. Yes, the girl whose mother sent her a text had no change whatsoever in her stress. None. We're just not, we haven't evolved fast enough. Right. And if it's 5 to 10,000 years, we realistically won't. So what I'm gathering from that is for dating apps is like use it as the intro of a go to a phone or video as soon as possible, right? Exactly. Use technology for what it's good for, which is relaying information. Hey, here's a great article I read. You might find interesting, or making connections, setting up the time, the date, making the rest reservation, whatever it is, those details. Absolutely. But everything else you need to either be on the phone or in person. And don't default the zoom. Don't default to zoom. Okay, so how about this scenario? 'cause we were talking about the beginning of dating when you're on dating apps. But what about when people are trying to find closure? We hear this a lot, you know, I'm trying to I'm trying to find closure. I want to tell this person how I feel. So I'm writing it all in text so I can get all my thoughts down or I'm writing this long ass email. Just so they know this novel of a story of how I truly feel about them is that I get Celeste space listeners that can't see it's less. I think feels like you're like rolling over right now. She's slow, slow motion shaking her head. You know, that's not a good sign. I mean, yeah. Number one closure isn't an illusion. Like psychologically, if you ask a psychologist, it's not really, that's not a thing. What you have to really interrogate that the need that you need have foreclosure. What is it that you really need? Right? When you are writing that long missive explaining how this other person, can I swear? And every word, please. Let's say that all you want to do is say you're a fucking asshole. And what you really want is for them to say, you're right. I am a fucking asshole, right? Ask yourself if that's going to happen. Right. Right? So before you do that whole closure thing, you really have to interrogate what it is you actually want and need. Because you're not going to get that. From that long text or that other person. I mean, number one, that email or that text is going to be completely missing miscommunicated. We also though that email makes people less likely to cooperate, less likely to corroborate less compassionate and escalates conflict. Well, no tone of voice, right? They can't tell how you're coming off. And they also, they don't give you the benefit of the doubt. Right. They're going to assume the worst about everything that you've said because you're in conflict. You're broken up. So they're going to put a snarky awful tone on every thing, right? Because they're reading it in their toe and not your home. Exactly. We've said this before on podcasts, too, and in our communities. If there is conflict in the relationship or even in early dates, texting is the worst place to handle. Worse. The worst place to handle it. Pick up the volcano to set up a person. Yeah, right? It's okay to set it up. It's okay to send them a text going clearly there's a lot to talk about here. Can we find a time to talk? That text totally kosher. But having that conversation over text, what? The, what are you thinking that if someone's not receptive, you don't need more closure? That's all the closure. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And if what you really need to do is write that long missive and then file it away in your journal. Great. All for it. Right. Or read it to your best friend and have your best friend Quinn. I know, yeah, he is a fucking asshole. Like if that's what you need, then yes. Right. So I think the texting and technology piece is so important for daters, but I do want to shift to the first date. Let's say we're on the first date. We hear all the time that our people in our community are listeners, are sick of the data view. The questions that are basically just like, where are you from? What do you do? The ones that you're supposed to ask on a first date. Celeste, you like that? Do you like that term? Date review? I think that's hilarious. That's hilarious. Great. So outside of listening because that's clearly a big one. You can obviously draw on that too. But what are some other ways that people can have a more impactful early convos to understanding they still don't know this person's super well.
00:50:07 - 00:55:01
I mean, the first thing I would say is your conversation doesn't need to be deep. Like people really underestimate small talk. Small talk is super important and can tell you a lot about a person. So that's number one. Number two is I would be completely honest with the other person and meet them where they are and where you are, right? So if you're feeling awkward, I would say, I feel so awkward, I never know what to say. Right? Yeah. I brought a list of data new questions. You're on the list. Are you for it? Or just on a scale of one to ten, how do we feel about data view questions? I hate them. I love them. You can be honest about how you're feeling and what you're doing. If you ask a dumb question, where are you from? And the other person rolls their eyes, go, I know, I know. It's a horrible question. I don't have to ask. Okay, what should I ask you about? What do you like to talk about? There's this great thing that Ted does, the Ted conference, when you go to a Ted conference, your listeners can't see, but you're name tag is like this big. It's probably like across your chest, basically. Yeah, it's massive. It has your picture, it has your name, I mean, I think at least one of them it had how to pronounce your name, said like what you do, and then it said, ask me about like, I'm passionate about blah. And it was awesome. You never had to worry about forgetting people's names. Or what they did. You know? So there was a couple dates I went on where I like had my name tag saying, here's what I do. I'm not kidding. You think I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. I was like, here's what I do. And here's my son's name. I put it on there so they didn't have to feel weird about forgetting my kid's name, right? So like, I feel like we should just be honest about how weird the first dates are. Just acknowledge it. You know, it's an elephant in the room and just be open about it. Here's one thing I will say, though, if you're not funny, don't try to be funny. Yes. Thank you. So many people think they're funny? Yes. What is it from sleepless in Seattle? Everyone thinks they have good taste in a great sense of humor. Most people have neither of those things. And that's okay. That's totally okay, but don't try to be funny if you're not funny. You're probably going to say something racist or sexist or both. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Because it feels so forced, and then it makes everyone awkward. But then at that point you just acknowledge that it's awkward. That's why I usually do. Like if someone tells a bad joke, I don't give them a pity laugh. I go, that was terrible. That was a terrible joke. I like what you're saying here, though, that you're including them in the convo. And it doesn't have to fall all on you to be this master conversationalist. I love this. What do you want to talk about? What makes this a good date for you, you know? Yeah, and questions are your ally here, right? The more questions you ask, number one, talking about yourself and what you like, stimulates the same pleasure center in the brain as sex and Harold. So allowing them the opportunity to talk about themselves what they're interested in what they believe is going to make them feel super good and they're going to walk away thinking you're the greatest conversationalist on the planet. But it also relieves you of having to come up with stuff to talk about. So I always tell people don't especially on a first date, forget about what it is you're going to say. Right. What do you want to know about? Right? Let's hold that thought for a few quick messages. Have you ever thought about how much better dating would be if you had a whole army of people supporting you along the way? We know that dating can be frustrating and lonely, but it can also feel fulfilling and fun. Have you recently decided you want to make some changes to your love life? Maybe you've recently reentered the dating scene. Maybe you've gone on one too many dates that went nowhere, or maybe you're just ready to take your current relationship to the next level. That is exactly why we created the sounding board, a true extension of our podcast that delivers a personalized experience, which includes monthly office hours where you can drop in and chat with us about anything. Weekly sound offs with guided discussions and regular virtual happy hours, allow Julie and I to become your dating sherpas to provide real-time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can all navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. Again, that's dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. Let's go back to what you said, let's not underestimate small talk. How is small talk different than data view talk, which is like, where are you from and what do you do for work and where did you go to school? How are the two different? So how is it different do you think small talk than doing a job interview? Like, that's what data view feels like. It feels like they're interviewing you for a job.
00:55:02 - 01:00:05
Because they have this list of what the ideal mate looks like, and they're just going to go down the list. Just like when you go to a job interview, right? They have an idea of who they want for that job. And you feel nervous because you're not sure if you're giving the right answers or not. That's what data view is. Yes. And it's horrible. A horrible, yes, who wants to feel that way? Yeah. Data view is just that's you giving the impression at least that you have a job description and you're just asking the questions that you need to see if they fit into it or not. Right? Basically, yeah. How do you get along with your mom? She hates me. Is this over now? What do you need here? Yeah. I know, exactly. I don't know. So that's really different than like, wow, cool tattoo. What is that? Tell me the story of that tattoo. Or you have your name on it on a necklace, is that because of Sex and the City, no wait, tell me, you know, gift or not, right? Or, oh, you ordered truffles or whatever it is that they're doing. I have a California sweatshirt on. Are you actually from California or how'd you get the sweatshirt? Right? Right. These are the things you can ask questions about that are out of honest curiosity. And honestly, I super recommend just sitting down and saying, I know first dates are awkward. Nothing you say is the wrong answer. I just want to learn about you. Yeah. So it's okay to tell me if a question is too personal, it's okay to not answer. I'm just here to get to know you a little bit. That's 100% okay. Fantastic. That's fantastic. Okay, so we know what we know when small talk is now. Okay, this is very different. And I feel like you're saying small talk comes from curiosity and observation. So it's very in the moment versus like, here's a list of small talk questions that I can ask about. What about this V word? Vulnerability. We talk about vulnerability a lot on first dates. Were you a second date? You want to bring in a vulnerable side of you so you can connect as humans. How do we facilitate deeper connection and is vulnerability part of that equation? Yes, I think another way to think of that is substitute vulnerability for authenticity. Your authentic self is going to be vulnerable because you're a human being, and we're vulnerable, right? So when you bring your authentic self to a date and why wouldn't you? You're wasting your time if you don't bring your authentic self, right? Because the whole purpose is to find the right partner. And three years on, do you think you're still going to be able to be hiding the fact that you like reality TV? So you bring your authentic self and you make yourself vulnerable because they're either going to accept that and appreciate it or reject it and say that's not for me. That is a vulnerable position to be in. Again, you're wasting your time by hiding that authentic self. That's just armor you're putting on because you don't want your who you really are to be up for us acceptance or rejection. I like that because you didn't go all the way to here are my childhood traumas. Let me be vulnerable about those. You're basically saying here's who I am and I'm being vulnerable by putting myself out there and it could be as simple as I like reality TV and I drink I drink lots of whisky after midnight. That's just who I am. Or it could be like I like I don't know the difference between good one and buy bad wine. Okay, I don't. So another thing we hear a lot is this need for this emotional connection. That's what the number one reason why dates don't progress past date two or three. Date one, I feel like people are a little more accepting of the small talk or even the data view, but then once it progresses to date two or three, there's a lot of times like, there's no emotion that's coming from our conversation. What are some ways that people can bring it up a notch, essentially? Interestingly enough, now this is going to sound at the beginning like I'm contradicting what I've already said. But stay with me here. Interestingly enough, some researchers put together a list of questions that you can ask that supposedly make anybody fall in love. I don't know. 36 questions. Exactly. And if you read through those, I'm not saying they call them the interpersonal closeness questions. Now there's not there's two sets of them that the ones that are supposedly make you fall in love. But there's another one that is the small talk set. And there are questions like, when was the last time you walked for more than an hour? Where were you? What did you see? What's the best gift you've ever received in why? How did you celebrate last new year? Do you read a newspaper? No. What's a good number of people to have in one apartment? It's a whole series of questions that are, they're not emotional, but they allow someone the opportunity to give you a more emotional answer.
01:00:06 - 01:05:06
Like the problem with making your goal being making an emotional connection is that you're like, if that's your goal, you're likely going to force it. Right. And the other person, they may not be the kind of person that wants to just lay everything out on the table to some stranger that they may not like and not see again. And that's not a bad thing. That's an okay, healthy thing. So it's better to come up with questions that give someone the opportunity to answer either in an in depth way or give you a more. And want to say jokey but a more superficial answer. Let leave the door open to that. And see if they're interested or not. And by asking these questions of like, okay, are you the type of person who likes to celebrate their birthday or not? Tell me, right. And are you know, let's say I forgot your birthday and of the world. Right, so like that kind of question, they can give you an emotional answer. Or they can not. And I see what you're saying about contradicting yourself because the beginning was, don't show up with the list of questions, but I think what the skills that people could hone in on of becoming a better conversationalist is not having a list at their disposal, but having just the innate ability to kind of feed off the conversation and what's happening and take these questions to the next level. So have the ability to go deep or go shallow based on what people are doing. Are there any ways that people could learn that skill or is that just something that comes with time? No, you can learn it. Like, you guys have gotten to be better podcast interviewers, right? True. Yeah, I mean, you can tell when you're listening to an interview when someone's just reading off the script. And they're not really listening or changing. Based on what the other person says. If what you need is an opening question, then okay, right? You can go saying, look, I always feel awkward, so I ask everyone the same opening question. Our dog's better than people. I mean, yes, of course they are. If you need an opening question then have an opening question, but the rest of the conversation needs to be based on the fact that you're really listening to them. To what they say. I like that because we just putting it back to the podcast analogy. At the beginning, when we didn't have an outline, we would just go rogue and it would not flow. And you would not get this. But now even outlined, but that doesn't mean that we're sitting here being like, we must go to question number three now, right? It's just a fluid conversation after that. So I love this. It's okay to have a few go tos, but don't make it so forced. Yeah, and I feel like you need to be open about the fact that they are, that those are prepared questions. Right. Right. Right. You are not George Clooney. Like, you can't pull that off in a natural way. Yeah, that'd be super awkward. Just wondering. Just how this is thought that came into my mind. On my walk over here, I was just lying. I was wondering to myself, you know, how do you feel about the situation in Ukraine, right? No. Just be open. That's why some of these opening lines are data gaps are just so awkward because they feel so forced. If there was an apocalypse, what skill would you pray? Like if someone asked you that in real life, you would have to caveat with this is my go to question. You would have to. You have to. And also, I mean, you have to keep in mind that that's not taken into account even the situation or the mood, you know, if your question is, how do you feel about whipped cream? And this is someone who comes in and they look upset. You're going to seem totally insensitive. Asking this stupid question. And I say the thing about whipped cream because that was actually one of the suggested questions. Do you take whipped cream on your lattes? Or something like that? It was the dumbest ever. Like if someone's coming in and they're like an in scrubs and they're exhausted and whatever and you say, hey, hey, whipped cream on you. That is so insensitive. And this is one of the reasons why prepared questions will let you down. They will make it feel like you are sociopath because you are not actually responding to the living breathing human being on the other side of the table or counter or whatever bench from you. It's so true. It creates immediate distance between the two people because that question has no relevancy to the person you're going on a date with. And then as a receiving end, I would just feel like you must ask this on every day. So am I just one of the victims? I want to get back into this idea of, okay, maybe you can't have connection with everybody. That's okay. You know, chemistry doesn't have to exist on every day, but you can remain curious. What about the skill of being a good conversationalist? Can everybody have good conversations with everybody they meet? Is there a way to hack their skills to say, I'm going to have a great conversation no matter who I meet.
01:05:07 - 01:10:00
Yeah, yes. I mean, obviously the exception proves the rule, right? Like if someone is pissed off, you know, they just got horrible news and every question you ask them, they say either yes or no or whatever. Fine. Okay, that's fine, right? At that point, you have to be like, it feels like you don't want to be here and I want to respect that. So can we reschedule or what do you want to do here? But other than that, yes, everyone can learn to be a great conversationalist. Everybody, an inspired well, let me say this. Everyone can learn to be a good conversationalist. Maybe not great, maybe not inspired, right? That separates a great podcast host from an okay one, right? But everyone can learn the skills that they need in order to have a good, solid, engaged, interesting conversation, everybody. Can we get into some of those tips? No, I don't like the word hack. Okay. This can take you straight back to the original TED Talk, right? Because some of those tips are universal. And it doesn't matter what kind of conversation you're in. It's funny because when I first started researching conversation many years ago, you find all these books that are like, how to have a first date conversation. I want to talk to your boss. How to talk to your spouse about whatever, you know? All these books about hyper specific issues. When the fact of the matter races that, it's the same. It's the same shit. It's the same no matter what, right? And one of the first things is, for example, learning how to say I don't know. Like, this is also super important when you're dating. Because we pretend all the time, right? Like someone will say, oh, and so I was in this such and such region of France and I had a particular kind of cheese and you're like under the table looking to see what's going on. You can go, oh yeah, I know what you're talking about, right? No. Like let them be the expert in what they're telling you about. Let them tell you. Be prepared to say, I don't know anything about that. And I also realized that reading a couple paragraphs off of my Facebook feed is not the same as knowing. So tell me, right? And the other person needs to be okay with that too. The other flip side is, if you're the receiver or the one that's sharing this info, you can't just expect everyone does everything about everything. Absolutely, absolutely. We have to let other people be experts in what their experts in. That's first. I can't tell you how many times it's almost always a dude. Some dude decides to tell me about how public radio works. Oh, good. Man, sport, broadcasting. Right. They'll be like, no, NPR gets its funding from the government. And I'm like, dude. Let me have this moment. You're not standing here. I'm the expert, okay? That's number one. Say, I don't know. Also, just by the way, when you learn how to say you don't know things, it increases other people's trust in you. So that's number one. Another one. It is vulnerable, and it's authentic as well. You're not pretending to anything. You also have to learn how to let thoughts go. So if somebody says, you know, I was driving and some asshole cut me off, and then this happened in the midst of and right at the very beginning, you remember this one time somebody cut you off and then they got their accident and it was their karma and it was there comeuppance and ha ha ha ha. And so you do not hear anything else. The person saying to you because all you're doing is holding on like a freaking terrier with a bone to your story about the time somebody cut you off and you're just waiting for them to stop talking so you can tell them your story. You have to learn how to let that stuff go. Number one, you've told that story before, you know you have, it's okay if you don't tell it again. Number two, you haven't heard anything they've said. Yes. And here's the third thing your brain is constantly going to be supplying you with information. That's what it does. You have a little librarians in there sifting through the archives and looking through the encyclopedias to come up with contextual information and details and memories and sensations that help you understand what you're hearing. Yep, that's for you. That's for your benefit. That's not necessarily for everybody else's benefits. You don't have to verbalize all of that. So you have to learn how to let that thought come up and go, thank you brain and then go back to listening. That's such an important tip for all of our listeners right now, because we hear on dates, people want to listen with the purpose of responding or relating. So when they're someone telling a story, you want to say, oh, I also experience that, and this is what happened. And for some reason, that's advice we received when we were kids saying that's how you relate to people. That's how you connect to people. We should listen with the hopes of listening and learning and not with the purpose of responding. And it's also horribly dismissive when you say, oh, the same thing happened to me.
01:10:00 - 01:15:07
I hate when the same thing didn't happen to you. Yes. I know how you feel is one of the absolute worst things that you can say. The worst thing. It is so interesting though, because we have been taught, that's how you could have. Because it feels like empathy to us, we're getting this shot of dopamine because we're again talking about ourselves when you talk about yourself and your own thoughts and your own experiences, you get a shot of dopamine, and you feel, I feel good, and we mistake that for empathy. That's not empathy. That's a good point. So, okay, so what about these situations where you just are not seeing eye to eye with someone, especially in today's world, there's a lot of polarizing views. Is it ever possible to connect with these folks? I think we mentioned earlier about in person conversations versus online, and you can start to see tone and understand them more, but are there ways to have those types of conversations? Yeah, there are, I mean, you can absolutely have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you on all kinds of things. The fact of the matter is that so many people are making decisions on who they'll date based on their political party. In fact, there's this great study called fear and loathing and fear and loathing and political whatever. But it across party lines. That's what it is. If you're incredibly across a lot of party lines and they found that people are more likely to make assumptions about other people, Americans, based on their political party than they are based on their perceived race. Wow. Get that? Like, we're more partisan than we are racist and we're super racist. And we're super racist. So think about that for a moment. Back in the 1940s or 50s, something like, I think it was like a ten or 15%, maybe 12% of people said they'd be bothered if they're kid married someone from the other political party. Now it's above 80 or 90%. Oh, not surprised. We see this all the time in our Facebook group. This comes up all the time. But the fact of the matter is is that while it is true that at this point in our lives, your political party also sometimes has a lot to do with what you eat and what you buy and all of those kinds of things, whether you recycle whether you don't, but at the same time, a marriage is more about can you live with somebody. Can you put up with how dirty they are or smelly they are or the way that they sleep in the bed or how loud they snore or like it's about being a roommate with them. Like I hate to break any romantic bubbles, there's plenty of love or I hope there's plenty of love, but in the end, whether that marriage survives or not is whether you can learn how to disagree with them in a healthy way. And whether you can live with them. And the fact of the matter is that study shows that couples who argue are much more likely to have a healthy marriage than those who don't. So learning how to disagree in a healthy way is only going to be good for your relationship. And that all comes down to showing respect. It is okay to disagree with someone. But if you disrespect that person, that's a line you can't cross and come back from. So don't use that disagreement to call them stupid. Don't just use that disagreement to call them part of the woke mob or whatever. All time show respect and you'll be okay, but learn how to disagree. Because you will disagree. You will visit disagree about stuff you never in a million years thought you would care about. Yeah. So learn how to disagree. You will disagree about whether you should mute the TV during commercials or not. You will disagree about which Chinese food Chinese place you get delivery from has the best egg rolls, like these will become important issues for you. Yeah, which cyborg to get, right, Julie. Absolutely. Just jump into it over text. That's what we learned about. But that is important to know too because I think daters are conditioned to be agreeable on dates. You want these to be pleasant dates. You want to be on the same page, but it's okay to find yourself not on the same page and have a healthy conversation about and welcome that kind of disagreement, I guess. Right. Yeah, as long as you're disrespectful and you don't use that disagreement to make a comment on kind of person they are. Right. Right? Like, you may disagree about, even if it's something core, like how important family is to a relationship, right? I'm separated from my family, intentionally. And so if someone's on a first date with me and they're like, I would never date a woman who didn't get along with her family. I'd be like, wow, we're gonna not gonna agree on that. Right? Right. Right? You know, maybe tell me why you think that, you know, I'm not gonna agree with you, but tell me why you think that. I'd love to hear. And I have had to do this all the time. Look, I've been a news reporter. And anchor for a very long time. I have had to interview people and have good conversations with people. I absolutely disagree with on pretty much everything. But I can still have a good conversation with them. Right. So do you think it's respect? Do you think it's possible then that people that greatly disagree about politics or whatnot can have a lasting happy marriage? It depends.
01:15:09 - 01:20:02
It depends. I think for most people, yes, because the vast majority of we're talking about America, right? The vast majority of America is moderate in the center. Could a Bernie bro marry a trumpet? Unlikely, right? And you look, I'm a black Jewish woman. It's unlikely that I'm going to marry somebody who and be happy with somebody who supports Donald Trump. Right. That's just be realistic. But short of that, most people are not on the extreme ends of the political spectrum. They're the loudest, they're the ones who get the most attention, but that's not where most people are. So if what you disagree about with is whether or not there should be Medicare for All? Yeah, you can have a happy marriage. What you disagree on is whether there should be school vouchers or not. Yeah, you're going to be fine. As long as you can learn not to turn those into screaming matches, it's all going to be okay. I mean, look, one of the most common things couples argue about is where dishes go in the dishwasher. So I mean, we're worried about stuff that doesn't often come up. That's all I'm saying. Fair, I love that. If you can survive the man loading the dishwasher, you can just like keep your mouth closed and just shut the door and turn on the dishwasher. You're going to be okay. Is that our takeaway here? No, I think this conversation has been, so insightful, so thanks again for joining us last, but I think the biggest, I mean, there's been so many takeaways, but I think the biggest takeaway I had is being a good conversationalist at having conversations that matter is a collaborative event. I think so often we have points that we want to make sure get addressed, a story that we want to make sure gets told to show that we are this person they should date or prove a point. But the most important aspect is that we are connecting with this person on the other side and that involves listening that involves I love this admitting that you have no idea what they're talking about and giving it as an opportunity to invite someone to teach you and how can you use conversation in a way that doesn't need to be as black and white as the data view to what's your childhood trauma. There are so many different paths that you can take within it and I love this collaboration of where are we? It may not be the date three is when you should start getting vulnerable. That can be different for everyone and having this more fluid nature of let's adapt the conversation accordingly and not judge in any way if it's not where we thought it would be or if let's say we do have a desire to get to know someone at a deeper level. Like maybe it's even just saying that. Like, hey, it's really important that I feel like we are progressing and how well we know each other. What are some topics that we could talk about? Make it collaborative. So that's the biggest takeaway I had hands down. Can I give you just one note of optimism here? Yeah. Which is that it's okay. You know how to do this. And I'm not saying this from my own personal experience. I'm saying this even from a research standpoint. One of my friends, a scientist named Gillian sandstrom, she and her colleagues did a years long research study into how people converse with strangers with people they know really well and live with with all kinds of different people. And they're in takeaway was. Most people know how to do this naturally. They nod their heads. They laugh, they respond. The thing that gets in the way is us. A self consciousness over worrying, oh God, they made a face, does that mean they hate me? Worrying constantly about ourselves, we get so trapped inside ourselves, we miss the fact that most people enjoy talking to you, right? And it's okay. You got it. You have this. Well, I think this is why we tell people so much of treat the conversations like you would be talking to a friend with dating, there's so much pressure to be the person that you think this other person wants you to be on the date and that's when you start getting in your own way and in your head. And what's the point of that? Right. If you are pretending to be someone other than you are in order to keep this person interested, how long are you going to be able to keep that up? You're dating someone who doesn't want you. Right. What you really want is someone who wants you. You. That is exactly my takeaway is that in dating, we're just trying to find someone that sees us who for who we are, but also we don't need to perform for them. We don't need to convince them. And that's when the most natural conversations begin is when both people are like, listen, we're just having a very human experience here. Whether we connect or not is out of our hands, but let's give it a shot. I love this idea of this being a human experience. Why? Because I think as a privilege for us to be able to have conversations.
01:20:03 - 01:23:53
Yes. And every opportunity we get, we should be so thankful that we can have this experience and any moment in time when we feel like we can take this conversation into in real life or on the foam or we hear someone else's voice. We should take that. Take that chance 'cause it is such a privilege that we have. I also love this tip that you gave us a list of just admitting that I don't know. Most people going to dates thinking I need to teach. I need to tell someone all about me and what I know and what I stand for, but what if we go into dates thinking I don't know anything and I'm just here to learn. Lead with curiosity. Exactly. And that creates so much more empathy and a lights up that side of your brain. Temple pareto jumps up. The very last takeaway I had to is this whole notion of listening and that we don't do this enough and we're so focused on ourselves and our pleasure of the conversation, which is why we tell the funny story. And why we need to get that in and again back to this collaborative view is how can we start to see it as the full picture of us interacting with another human being? Just what you just said, you a, what a different shift it is to think about the opportunity to have these conversations versus like, I'm going to be on another date or view. And I am dreading asking all these questions. It's such a different way that you're showing up through that simple change of perception. Exactly. Thank you so much Celeste for sharing all that you've learned throughout your career. And I also love that this conversation is actually quite different from your TED Talk. Ten ways to have a better conversation for all of our listeners definitely check out this TED Talk because they're you go through so many tips like how to ask open ended questions and start your answer with their last word that they said. They're just a lot of these tips that you can learn from the TED Talk that you can learn outside of this conversation. And Celeste, where can people learn more about you? Where should they go? So they can either go to my website, which is just Celeste Hadley dot com or follow me on Twitter. That's the one social media. I actually use just Celeste headley. Yeah, that's the easiest. It definitely check out Celeste TED Talk. I loved every second of it. And so did 26 million other people. All right, we're going to wrap up this episode. Thank you all for listening to this before listening for listening with intent. Thank you for that. And also thank you for all of you who've gone to our Apple podcast reviews and left us 5 stars and a little love note. We love that. If you haven't done that, we really appreciate it. If you do that, that is part of this ongoing conversation we love for you to be part of. And we're going to wrap this up now. Thank you so much, Celeste. The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tag us in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those pose. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos, and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect, analyze, and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitcher radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable.