Anxious daters! It's time to finally feel more secure in your love life as we chat with Kirstie Taylor about navigating the anxious attachment style and finally having the love life you want. We discuss why so many of us struggle with dating, how to decode when it's the anxiety talking or the wrong fit, and what happens when you can start to shift your beliefs about love.
Follow Kirstie @kirstietaylorr and check out her book 'What I Wish I Knew about Love'
Thank you to our partners for this episode:
Drizly: Download the Drizly app or go to Drizly.com and use promo code FAST5 for $5 off your first order.
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S14E6: Securing Your Anxious Attachment w/ Kirstie Taylor
00:00:01 - 00:05:02
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
What's up Friends? Welcome to another episode of the dateable podcast where we really dig into modern dating and help you all try to figure out why the shit is happening the way it is and today our episode is all about becoming more secure in dating, especially in early days. I feel like I get really self conscious and anxious in early dating in a totally fucks with me. Yes, you and all of our listeners. I think anxiety was, was the biggest challenge that I faced when dating for sure. And I think this topic is going to resonate with so many people because, you know, it's hard in today's world not to feel anxious while you're dating. And I have a lot of thoughts about attachment theory. It's been such a hot topic. I remember one of my friends telling me how she stayed up to like 4 a.m. talking to another one of our friends about how fuck they were that they were fearful and that they were screwed in the world of dating. So I think it's really great to give a foundation of how you operate and how you might be like predisposition, but I also feel like sometimes people take it to be like there's something wrong with me. And I think that's where it's good to know to help you, but I don't want anyone to ever feel like there's something wrong with them. Right. Like newsflash, there is something wrong with everyone, so you're not special if you think there's something wrong with you. But I think that everything when it comes to personal development and self awareness is knowing where you are and then also knowing where you want to be. I think that just gives us a barometer of how to measure our progress. It's not so much like this is who you are, you're fucked the sui are forever. And I like the thinking that this is like, okay, my moment in time is here, but I can't move it forward a little bit. I can progress every day towards being less anxious. Why I love this conversation because one is so relatable, but also kirsty Taylor, who we are talking to. She is who she is someone who's been through this. And she overcame it, which is incredible. And you can hear her journey, but I think this is kind of like the magic of just sharing these stories because then we know how do we overcome the stupid, anxious feeling you get in the beginning. I don't feel it a lot less anxious because I just got back from a trip and so did. Mini vacant. I feel like sometimes it's hard to take the time out, but it really does help in so many ways. So I went to Tahoe and I managed to find Hot Springs that were $15 to go to. What for the whole day. Or two hours. I went multiple times because you know I love Hot Springs. Damn. There is no better way to relax at a hot spring in my opinion. And you just got back from Mexico, so you probably were in a lot more water than I was even. I love the fact, okay, I remember getting a text from Julie saying that she snuck into a hot tub at a hotel. I'm like, this girl just chases hot water wherever she goes. Remember there was a hotness, that's where she's gonna be. I was chasing hotness in Cabo, Mexico. I've been to Cabo two other times. First time was for spring break, so I totally blacked out. I don't remember it at all. And so this time around, you know, being in my 40s, being in a relationship going to Cabo was a completely different experience. And one thing that I did that was completely different from my first time was I was completely dry. I didn't drink. I'll give you a good reason why this might be TMI because I had a UTI. Okay, so I was on antibiotics and fucking a people. For anybody who's had UTIs, don't you think that is just like the worst punishment for pleasure? I'm afraid to have sex because I get fucking UTIs. It's so fucking annoying. You get more UTIs than anyone I know. Do I really? I get like I get them twice a year. This is like my cadence, but every time I get it, sometimes it goes like two in a row. It's really, it's really annoying. And so picture of being a hot tub or a Hot Springs, I was like, hell, no. But what did you do in Mexico then? Were you not in the water? Yeah, we swam, you know? Cold water. We went in the pool, went in the ocean, but I loved being dry in Mexico because I had a lot less chatter in my mind when the alcohol is not there. And Julie and I have talked about this before, like when we were dating, drinking was a big part of it because alleviates that anxiety and nervousness. And I'm not saying this to say, if you are drinking on dates, you're a bad person.
00:05:03 - 00:10:05
I'm not trying to tell you that. I'm just telling you that if you try it sober and dry, it gives you a completely different experience, and I really enjoyed my sober time in Mexico. Well, the irony about alcohol in general is a lot of times you turn to it to alleviate anxiety, especially social anxiety when dating. I know I definitely drink too much on dates when I was first going out there doing the cereal dating thing. And the irony though is that it is a substance that makes you more anxious and depressed. So is it depressing? So I think it's really interesting too. It's also I kind of think about it with sex too. It's like it makes you looser and we're ready to go. But then there's all these issues that happened. Whisky dick. Yeah, so that's interesting. I've also been kind of cutting back on the alcohol as well lately. So I think that it allows you to do a lot more. You don't have the hangovers, all that stuff. Yeah, you have your mornings back, which is nice. Exactly. Exactly. But while we're on the topic of anxiety, 'cause that is the topic of this episode. We did something super fun today, a poll of our listeners. We always love polling our listeners. So shout out to all the folks that follow us on Instagram that also the folks in love in the time of Corona. Facebook group. That's where these polls happen. So if you're not there yet, get on it, but I was curious because, I mean, a lot of people have read this book attached. I feel like that is like the Bible that people are always like, have you read this book attached? It's like yes. Yes, we have. But like I was mentioning, I've had friends at severely think there's something wrong because they're a certain way. And I was curious what the breakout was. So overall, 50% of folks are secure. And again, this is what the stats of this book say that are published online. 20% are anxious. 25% avoidant and then 5% is that fearful avoid it, which is basically your anxious and avoidant at the same time. Ah, this is so reflective of the different styles because if you're voiding, you're probably avoiding the question in the secure, you're like, yes, I'm going to well that's the irony that I wanted to share is that was not the breakout of our listeners at all. And I think there's a few theories of why. So our listeners were more 45% ish anxious. So collectively the stats are saying 20%, but we're more in the 45% range. So on Instagram, it was actually slightly lower than on Facebook for our listeners that put in the poll. And then our secure attachment was about 38% on Instagram and then 12% on Facebook, people were identifying that way. And then avoidant, we were about 14% on Instagram 8% on Facebook, fearful avoidant was another 14% on Instagram 6% on Facebook. So I think there's a few theories, one of our listeners and the Saudi board, Megan, that we have known for years. She sent us a message that made me laugh. She was like, I think all of the avoided people are avoiding answering the questions. There you go. Yeah, they're avoiding it. I'm not going to answer this question. But I also think people that maybe seek out dating podcasts or want to learn more and educate themselves might skew more on the anxious side. I know both of us have identified as being more anxious, especially when we started this podcast. I think the podcast has helped us become more secure, but I think when we started, we were feeling anxious. I think when you're like, why can't I figure this damn thing out with modern dating? A lot of times you're more on the anxious side. And then there's also stats that the online dating pool is made up of more anxious and avoidant people. I believe you know in theory secure people are in relationships more. So that's kind of an interesting take on why our numbers might be slightly different. But we got a really good comment from Lauren that said, I feel like I've worked my way to secure, but anxious is the way I tend if the dynamic is unhealthy. And I'm so glad she said that because that is exactly what we're talking about today of there's, again, nothing wrong with you if you're anxious. I think for me personally, I'll always have some anxious tendencies because that's how I'm wired. Some of it's finding a partner that accepts those anxious tendencies or being in a dynamic that doesn't bring them out as much or just owning the fact that like, hey, if I don't hear back from you for two hours, I am going to feel anxious. Can you try not to do that? So I think that this episode really dives into like, what do you do when you are feeling anxious and how do you use that information to make different decisions and to not say like, again, there's something wrong with me, but how am I going to use this information as knowledge to become more secure? Question for you and all of our listeners listening to this.
00:10:05 - 00:15:03
What attachment style do you think Will Smith has? Curious, what do you think? Is it a way to violent? One or the other. There was a new one. We've created a new one violet attachment style. I don't know, I don't think it's avoiding because he probably just would have avoided the conflicts, right? Right. Is it anxious? Just anxious about the maybe it's fearful avoid it. Wow, fearful avoidant. I mean, secure, you probably would have sat down face to face, had a conversation. Privately. Yep, fearful, avoidant. We got you Will Smith. You're one of the 6%. Yeah, the 5%. You're a rare breed. Will Smith aren't you? Oh, yes. Anyways, announcements. We are trying something new this week. So you might notice that our intro is slightly shorter because we are going to be doing a second episode on Sunday where we do the question that we get submitted that's typically in this intro, but we go a little deeper. It's like brunch talk. We're going to release them on Sundays so you can get the answer. I think one of the reasons why we did this is we heard some feedback that these questions are really helpful. But sometimes they're hidden in the whole description of the episode. And we were like, well, we don't want to take away from the meat of the episode with our guests. So how can we do this as a complementary part of the podcast? So we are trying something new, feedback is welcome, but check in on Sunday for kind of this extra bonus that's going to be every week. And if even if this question doesn't apply to you, we still highly recommend that you listen to it because you always learn from what other people are going through, you'll feel like you're not alone in the process, and also you just hear personal anecdotes from both Julie and I. So even again, if the question doesn't apply to you, still listen to it because I think you'll still get something out of it. Yeah, and I think another plug for the sounding board and all the programs that we do, we will be releasing finding your person again in the near future. We're not sure on the date, but of course you can always join the wait list to be up to speed on any information at finding your person dot com. But one of the things that's been so fascinating is what we do these live Sessions. People sometimes won't ask any questions, but they'll come after and say, I got so much out of that and just hearing what other people were going through. And it made me feel like I got this because it's not just me. There's nothing wrong with me. It's just this is part of the course. Fabulous. Cool. Okay, well, that being said, tune in on Sunday and let's get into it with our guest, kirsty Taylor. And before we got on this call, I was trying to research, what is the average American study the most in school? Like how many hours are spent? And I couldn't find the exact numbers, but basically like you're at basics, math, English, biology. Those are where we spend the most hours on studying, yet when it comes to matters of the heart, like love, relationships, communication, you know, the basics, human survival skills we spend zero hours odd. And kiersey is so nice to have you on our show because we're here to talk about what you wish you knew about love. And she's 30 years old, she's in Los Angeles. She's been here for ten years, originally from Orlando, Florida, currently in a monogamous relationship. She's a dating and relationship author who helps anxious daters feel more secure because you wrote a book called what I wish I knew about love and you've been a self love writer with words in cosmopolitan magazine, well and good and The Washington Post among many others. So let's just start right there. Nobody teaches us about love and you've said that you have felt that you're a victim to your own love life. What does that mean? Right. We grew up learning so many antiquated ideas around love, whether that be from the movies we watched, the Disney movies we watch, where the princess is saved by the prince or the playing games that we heard an old teen Vogue issues and everything. Those right? Those beliefs that we form from those messages and everything really affect our love lives. And it did for me for me, I thought I was this broken person who needed to be saved and I was a half that needed someone else to be my whole actually I was probably felt like a force and I needed a three fourths from someone else and I led my love life like that for way too long and it's because no one really gave me any better advice. No one told me that love could be differently and I never even stopped to think that I had control over my love life. So take us back to this kirsty, the one that did not know about love. Can you kind of describe what you were going through? You clearly said some of it, but were the day to day feeling of looking for that person to fill you.
00:15:03 - 00:20:12
Right. Just hearing that takes me back to when I was in college, which was almost a decade ago, and thinking to my college boyfriend when I just every day worried about what he thought of me and if I was enough and how I could change myself to be enough for him and just feeling so anxious and so hopeless but without any self awareness. I had no idea. I was just functioning on autopilot. We get into a fight, I do everything blood sweat and tears to fix it, even though he really doesn't care. And I just will completely change myself for this person because I guess at the time I just wanted to be loved. I wanted someone. I wanted to be with someone. And I think that resonates with all of us because we all feel that way. And that's why so many people are in this dating game because they want to be loved and they want to find someone to love. But why do you think people struggle so much with finding love? Now, we don't learn about it in school. We have no basic skills around it, but the other side of it is maybe because of all the struggles it makes love more worthwhile. Maybe we're supposed to go through all of this turmoil. What are your thoughts on that? I actually think it's a bit of both, and I do think a lot, especially because I talk about attachment theories. It forms from our relationships with our parents. So I didn't have a horrible relationship with my parents, but I didn't have the best, and I definitely never felt really loved by my dad, which daddy issues. We could get into that. We'll do that right now. That's a whole podcast episode. Right? But at the same time, going through all those struggles, like you said, is a chance to learn about yourself. It's a chance to grow the moment we have a relationship, our first relationship, it's basically all of our insecurities reflected back onto us and if you have the self awareness and when we get older, you have the maturity and emotional maturity to do something about that. You can grow as a person. You can grow as a partner, and you can find someone who is a way better partner for you than that older version of yourself who wasn't so self aware and who hadn't done the growth. So we hear from daters all the time, that really resonate with this anxious feeling. A 100% resonate with this. I think you and I both were more anxious daters than avoiding daters and I would say probably the majority of people like in our Facebook community that we hear from are also on that boat. Yeah. Do you think it's a nature or nurture thing or a little bit of both? Because I think sometimes modern dating lends itself to anxiety, but then also what you were just saying about the way you were raised and all the impacts of your life. I love that question. I've never been asked if I thought it was nature nurture. Part of me wants to say, well, big part of me wants to say that it's nurture that it definitely forms with our parents and then our first relationships, whether or not those went bad or not, but you make a really great point. Modern dating definitely does not help people who are anxious, it will make you a lot more anxious, all of the playing games, even just a lot of people are how they function on dating apps right now where they're just like, oh, this doesn't work out this person, like big deal. There's all these other people I can swipe on. Definitely doesn't help for an anxious person when they're just waiting for someone to be like, I'm out of this versus people who are actually really committed to finding a relationship and putting in the effort. So I would say that it is mostly nurture, but if you are predisposed because of your past, modern dating will definitely trigger it. Yeah, definitely will fuck with you. There we go. Perfect. Other level. And it all stems from your childhood, right? Every expert will say all this bullshit that comes with modern day day. Stems from your childhood and I find this so interesting is that when you're a baby, you are given unconditional love. You can cry, shit your hands, whatever your parents are still gonna take care of you. But at a certain point, you start experiencing conditional love, you feel like your parents will only love you if you earn their love. So I would love to hear your thoughts on what is the relationship between early childhood experiences love and how that manifests into adult love. Right, yeah. I mean, I think it's really interesting. Some kids don't receive that unconditional care at the beginning. Some, I mean, back in the day, our parents really didn't have a lot of resources, so a lot of parents would just let their kids cry it out. And that formed something inside of them that's like, if I am sad, I can't rely on other people because when I show emotion or something, my needs aren't going to be met. Growing up more if you're toddler, young, adult, teenager, I guess, is the word. If you go to your parents for emotional support and you're met with, I'm too busy, or I'm unavailable, right? There's a lot of parents that mean well, but they're just not available, then you're being taught that you either have to do really well at school for your parents to notice you and to give you that love or you can't rely on your parents.
00:20:12 - 00:25:09
You can't rely on anyone to give you that unconditional type of love. And I think it's very interesting because I definitely don't think relationships are unconditional love, but to the extent of as long as you're a good person as long as you're showing respect and you're building trust and everything, then in that sense and that environment, it should be unconditional, which we would hope to see for our parents, but not everyone sees it from their parents, and it doesn't always have to be malicious from the parents. It can be unintentional. So was there any points of your childhood that you could kind of pinpoint now that you're in light of that you're like, oh, this plays it to my anxiety. My parents were gonna listen to this and be like, oh, no. By the way, let's caveat this by saying every parent has fucked up, okay? It's like no perfect parent out there. So this is not to throw anybody's parents under the bus. No, and it's so easy to blame our parents. That's like the easy way out. And I don't think attachment theory is doing. That it's more of just, let's take ownership and understand ourselves so we can work with what we got. Totally. And you both make such a good point, yeah. It's our parents just make mistakes. No one's perfect. I'm sure we'll make mistakes. Yeah, we're cute. I mean, I think the big thing is my dad, he just wasn't an emotional person growing up. I can't recall at all him saying, I love you or that I was beautiful or anything like that. And I think it's very interesting that he's gotten a lot better at it as an adult. It's actually funny that I'm sure my younger self would have loved to have heard my dad say I love you more and now he says it all the time when we hang up and it almost kind of feels uncomfortable 'cause I'm just so not used to it. And I cringe a little bit, but I'm also trying to work on it. I'm like, okay, he's trying, I'm trying like let's try. We don't have a horrible relationship at all. So definitely that with my dad comes up for me. And I guess how does it play out into today, it's actually really funny. Now that I'm sorry, putting those two together with my current dating, I have always only ever felt really emotionally connected to a person if it's my partner. I have always struggled with friendships and I used to really feel uncomfortable hugging people and saying, I love you to my Friends, but I'd never had that issue in a relationship. So I think that it's almost that I was I never received it from my dad and I was overcompensating in relationships and trying to heal that wound that I never had with him with my partners. Same boat. Same. I have never felt close platonic relationships. I was never comfortable being overly affectionate. And I would be very envious of my friends who can have these sleepovers and feel so comfortable in each other's space and I just don't get it, but with a romantic partner, I'm like on top of them all the time. My personal space. And that's interesting that you bring up that point because my dad was the exact same way, lacking the emotions and I always felt like I had to earn his love, which plays into my anxiety when it comes to dating. So let's talk about this anxious attachment style because so many people identify with that. How did you first discover your anxiety showing up in your dating life? It's so funny you say that. I took, I took a year break from dating because I had two back to back relationships with guys. I really wasn't that interested in, but it was the classic anxious avoid and trap, which I didn't know at the time. And I had a friend who was a therapist and training, and she was like, oh my gosh, you need to read this book. It's called attached. And they had the epiphany moment that so many people have, which is I read about an anxious attachment, and I was like, wow, these people literally like pride open my mind and just took it out and made a book about it because that's how I felt was like, this is exactly what I'm experiencing. And I never put the word anxiety behind it because I've always struggled with depression in my life. And I never even considered that I might be anxious, especially in my dating life, and once I read that, I was like anxiety. That's it. And dating, anxiety, and dating, that is what I'm experiencing. It's so fascinating because I feel like I've always experienced anxiety and dating. And I would show up for me a lot after a great date if they were to text again or to plans were to happen. I was very anxious about the next step occurring. That was always my thing. But I think even in my current relationship, there are times that I feel anxious and it's not because of my partner. It's my own stuff. And I've identified that. I know that. I think I realized, and this is maybe my only criticism of the book attached is kind of makes it feel like there's something wrong with you, where I feel like what I've learned to embrace more is like, I'm anxious and some ways in relationships and not in others.
00:25:09 - 00:30:00
And I actually thought I maybe suffered from anxiety and I signed up for this whole program to counter me anxiety and then realized I had no anxiety outside of dating. So I guess my question for you in a long winded way was how did you learn to kind of overcome it or is this something that you just live with? Because like for me, I kind of just live with it in my, I needed a partner that would accept it. I love that you said that at the end, that's such a beautiful realization because I think it is a two I know. It is a two step process. There are things that you can do to work on yourself and I did that during that year dating break. I identify my protest behaviors. I learned healthy healthier coping mechanisms. I saw a therapist at the time and I helped he helped me realize what red flags I ignored and why I didn't create boundaries with people. But I honestly think the biggest healing moment was when I got into my current relationship with my securely attached boyfriend. And I forget where I read it, but we often hear this message that we have to love ourselves for others to love us or we need to fix our shit before we get into relationship. But when it comes to dating and it comes to relationships, that wound and that those painful memories and everything are formed by humans. They're formed by human interaction. So part of the healing is having healthier human interaction. So if you have this belief that you're not worthy of love, you can do all these things to feel more worthy of life in general, but it isn't until you're with someone who stays with you during those dark moments who sees your what you consider your flaws and still stays with you, that you really start to fully heal. And I am definitely on board with Julie saying that you feel like this is just me. I would say I'm secure leaning anxious. I don't think I'll ever be a 100% secure, and I'm fine with that. I'm just a little bit of an anxious person. That's my personality. And we did this. We had another episode way back about attachment theory. And we did a few different tests, and there were some that would be like, oh, with this person, I am scoring this way. And then with this person in my life, a different way, or maybe I am a little anxious about someone texting to make plans, but once I'm in a relationship, if they want to make plans with their friends, I don't care at all. So it doesn't mean that you're anxious across the board if you're identified as anxious either. Totally. And yeah, it's unique for everyone. Maybe you really struggle with the beginning of dating. And once you get into relationship, everything cools, but that is kind of what you just said. So it is just different. Some people are really triggered by one thing. Some people are triggered by other things. And I think it's very easy for us to talk about this anecdotally. But when you're in it, it's really hard to crawl out of. So one major hang up, a lot of our listeners experience. It's like waiting for the text back or waiting for the callback or waiting for some signal back. And that waiting period creates so much anxiety. So step number one is figure out the why behind why we get so anxious around this type of behavior. Why do you think that is? What is the why behind it? Fear of abandonment is a big one for people, fear and people will leave their lives fear of being alone. Some people might think that there's they might have a scarcity mindset. They may think I had this really great day with this person. We clicked so well. And if it doesn't work out with them, I'm never going to find someone I click with that well. Those type of things, so scarcity mindset, fear of abandonment. It's all kind of just a fear, a fear of losing love, a fear of not finding love. It's very fear driven. I definitely agree with that. I think will we see people struggling with dating. It always roots down to a fear. And I know for me too, I think one of the things that I started to do was I would just reach out first. And that doesn't mean that you're always the one owning the movement of a relationship. That's clearly not a good place to be in one sided. But if I was sitting waiting for the phone to ring or to buzz for a text, I would just look at it and be like, is it worth my time to sit here and feel like anxious? Or is it worth my time to gain control? There could be no answer if I reach out or the person could say that they are not interested, but at least you know. So it's kind of like taking that fear of rejection by its head. Exactly. If you get anxious because you worry about whether or not someone will text you back or say if they had a good time in the day, take that power back from that situation and be like, I am going to Texas person and say I had a great date. Then you're not feeding into your anxiety and your fears. You're being like, I can take control of the situation.
00:30:01 - 00:35:01
I can trust myself and then I can find out what their feelings are rather than just wondering. It's so funny. Our minds think that if we wonder about something enough, we'll find the solution. That is definitely not the case. We're just drive yourself crazy. Our minds are like our worst enemy in times, you know? Because we think we know everything, but our minds are just an echo chamber for ourselves. We only know what we know. Exactly. Let's hold that thought for a few messages. This episode is made possible by sugar break. I have a confession. I have a sweet tooth. Every year I make it a goal to eat less sugar, and I'm not alone in this 90% of Americans are actively trying to reduce their sugar intake. But this year, I may actually accomplish that goal with sugar break. A plant based natural solution that helps people manage their blood sugar as part of a healthy lifestyle without completely altering their daily lives or costing an arm and a leg. There are three core products the sugar break resist. It's a natural minty fresh breath strip that blocks sweet taste in food and curbs sugar cravings on the spot. This is what I like to use when I go out to eat and I know I'll have an urge to order some decadent dessert. Sugar breaks stabilize as a pre meal capsule made with white mulberry leaf, a powerful plant ingredient that helps block carb and sugar absorption. I found this especially handy before heavy meals. And then there's sugar break reduce a daily capsule that helps maintain healthy, balanced blood sugar day in and day out. Of course, please consult your doctor before starting any supplements. Now for our listeners only get 15% off your entire order, just visit WWW dot sugar break dot com slash dateable and use the code dateable for 15% off. This applies to any products on the site. Again, just go to WWW dot sugar break dot com slash dateable and use the code DAT ABL E for 15% off your entire order. This episode is brought to you by drizzly. If you look for it every day has cause for celebration. Celebrate a friend for their promotion, baby, wedding life thing. Celebrate yourself for keeping the couch warm. It's no easy feat, especially if it's a big couch. Or maybe you just want to celebrate living in 2022, where you can get beer, wine, and spirits delivered from drizzly in under 60 minutes without leaving, said couch. No wonder drizzly is the number one app for alcohol delivery. And remember to share the love, you can get alcohol delivered to your friends and your coworkers, what a nice surprise. Right now, drizzly is giving all new customers $5 off their first order with the code fast 5. So download the drizzly app or go to drizzly dot com that spelled DRI Z, LY dot com and use the promo code fast 5 that spelled FAST number 5 for $5 off your first order. You're welcome. Have you ever thought about how much better dating would be if you had a whole army of people supporting you along the way? We know that dating can be frustrating and lonely, but it can also feel fulfilling and fun. Have you recently decided you want to make some changes to your love life? Maybe you've recently reentered the dating scene. Maybe you've gone on one too many dates that went nowhere, or maybe you're just ready to take your current relationship to the next level. That is exactly why we created the sounding board, a true extension of our podcast that delivers a personalized experience, which includes monthly office hours where you can drop in and chat with us about anything. Weekly sound offs with guided discussions and regular virtual happy hours, allow Julie and I to become your dating sherpas to provide real-time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can all navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. Again, that's dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board. So fear is an interesting concept because on one hand, fear can be debilitating. And on the other hand, fear can really protect us. It saves us from burning ourselves on the stove, saves us from oncoming cars. So when we're experiencing that anxiety, which stems from fear, how do we decipher if it's productive fear versus anxious fear? Yeah. So pinpointing what the fear is, if it's fear that you will be alone forever, you can maybe take a step back and be like, where is that coming from? Is that true? Is that a place of there's evidence behind this fear? Or is this fear because I've been told that if I'm going to be, if I'm single past 35, I'll never find someone, the pool is getting smaller. Is the fear based in a place that's actually productive that's actually helping me or is the fear based on all these things that aren't serving me anymore and maybe they were protecting me at one point. You know, wanting to belong is a completely normal thing.
00:35:01 - 00:40:00
People think the moment they're lonely, they're like, I'm doing this wrong, I should love myself enough to never be lonely, but to want to be with someone as a natural human experience. It was a survival method, but to take a step back and be like, is this helping me? Is this serving me or is this keeping me stuck and holding me back? Right, am I playing the victim or am I making progress? So maybe a follow on to that because I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with and I've definitely been here too. Is it my own anxiety talking or is it my gut telling me that this is not the right partner? Right. What was your way to suffer between the two? This is a really hard thing for a lot of people with anxiety or just relationship anxiety, right? I have a couple things to say about this. The gut feeling, a good question to ask yourself is, is this feeling persistent or is this feeling more triggered? So is this feeling do I think about this when I'm just driving in my car and feeling okay? Do I think about this when I'm taking a bath when I'm calm do I think about this? Do I worry about this or does this worry come up after a fight? Does this worry come up when I don't hear from my boyfriend or partner? Does this worry happen when we're having a disagreement, something like that? Because anxiety will often be a triggered thing and a gut feeling will be a calm assured feeling. That can come up sometimes when we're triggered and we're worked up, but it's still there, even when we're not triggered and worked up. So for me, that's something I struggle with in my relationship, you know? A partner can always be better, right? There's always something that you're like, I can change this. If only this were better, especially with social media. We look at couples on social media. My boyfriend was funnier. My boyfriend actually did tiktoks with me that used to be a big they used to be a big one so that's a big boundary of ours is that he's not on TikTok with me. And it's like, does that actually bother me in our day to day, especially when we're just hanging out at home when we're doing things? No, I only think about that when I see other people's boyfriends on social media. So that's clearly an anxious thing. And then also another thing that I think is really beautiful to think about. The only way that you'll know if you're going to be with someone forever, you will be with someone forever. You will make a great relationship is as long as you have respect as long as you have mutual connection and trust and all that is that if you choose. At the end of the day, people who stay in decades long relationships that are really great is that they chose. They chose during the hard moments to keep loving their partner. They chose to work through the fights. They chose to compromise. They chose to figure things out and they chose to stay. So as long as you find someone who's great, you find someone who you really enjoy your time with, you just have to make the choice. Okay, so here's the tricky part though. So yes. Yes. I think it's a constant choice. But we know a lot of people who chase the anxiety because they mistaken the anxiety for butterflies and chemistry. So we've even heard people say, well, I haven't had to wait for a phone call. I haven't felt anxious. Is there something wrong with this relationship? Am I bored by this person? So then it causes that yo yo effect of roller coaster dating and then you don't know what a healthy relationship looks like anymore. So how can people stop themselves from chasing after that anxious feeling? Right. I love this so much and I'm sure you've had Logan Yuri on your podcast who says fuck the spark and I love that phrase so it's a process. It's a process going from I'm attracted to these people who make me really anxious or I'm attracted to these people who are emotionally unavailable to secure which can oftentimes come off as boring is actually what's going to be a great relationship for me. So what I would say is really important to do is to start doing some post date check ins. Like, what did I feel on that day? Was there any red flags or anything? Did I feel anxious or did I feel butterflies? Did I feel like this instantaneous spark? Do I feel like it's too good to be true? In that case, I might be like, what are those qualities I'm looking for in this person? What qualities give me that spark or those butterflies? Is it that they're really hot? Is it that we have this instantaneous connection that I think is necessary for a good relationship? Pinpoint what those are and then ask yourself how those have gone for you in the past. How have those instantaneous sparks going? How have those butterflies gone? Because chances are you're going to see like, oh no, that led to someone who is emotionally unavailable. That led to someone who was scared of being vulnerable with me who was putting on this really cocky attitude that I thought I was attracted to, but actually doesn't lead me to a healthy relationship. So the first part is just getting really self aware about that. And then changing slowly what you're attracted to.
00:40:01 - 00:45:03
Getting really honed in on what your core values are and start to look for those core values and the people you date, and it can be as simple as starting to ask different questions on the date. Trying to think of one now right off the top of my head, something that's going to bring out a little bit more of a vulnerable side of them. What's something you're really passionate about at work? What's one of your biggest fears in life? Just kind of seeing how people react to those kind of questions can help. But kind of just reflecting on yourself, be like, what have I been attracted to in the past? And why am I attracted to those things? And did those work out for me? Reflections very powerful. And indeed it is. And I think one of the things that I love about attachment theory is what you can learn from it. How do you think you dated better after learning more about your anxious attachment? Oh, I love this question. I became a lot more aware of kind of what I just described, which is the kind of people that I was attracted to. The biggest thing being, I thought it was really attracted to confidence, confident men, but I'm actually, I was attracted to this cockiness and that cockiness triggered my insecurities inside me. And just triggered all this stuff I didn't like about myself. So some people would be like, oh, you should work on that, which I did, but I also decided I'm not going to date those kind of people anymore. Someone who makes me feel that way is going to be a red flag for me. Instead of an attraction. And then another thing was when I would feel some people called the ick or cringe or whatever. Of my boyfriend at the time who will say just at the beginning of relationship or just even people I dated kind of right before him. When I feel grossed out by his behavior, I'm going to be like, what's that behavior? So he would text me consistently. That was a big thing with him. And at first I was like, this is weird. Why is he showing me so much? It was almost like I went into an avoidant state. Why is he showing me so much attention? I don't like this. This feels weird. I'm not used to this. But then I took a step back and I was like, but I want to like this. This is what I've always wanted. I've always wanted a partner who was great at texting. So what is it about me that's being like this isn't comfortable. It's most likely that I'm not used to it and you know what I'm gonna do and this is I don't know maybe this isn't the best advice but I hope other people find it helpful. I'm gonna ignore it. I'm gonna keep dating him and until I find something that he does that's an unhealthy thing I don't like. I'm gonna keep dating him and hope that these feelings just go away which they did and it was beautiful. Well I think you hit the nail on the head the opposite side of anxiety and anxiousness is avoidance in a lot of times the reason why we're drawn to people when we are anxious that are avoidant is because we're essentially avoiding relationships because we know it's actually not going to be the relationship we need. So it's interesting always to me that they are basically the same even though they seem so different. Totally, they're both based in fear, fear of intimacy, avoidance pull away. Anxious people are scared of losing it, but we both get into this dynamic where it's not actually ever there and a lot of times it's avoidance or characterizes these demons or like the bad people, but it's really just, it's the same core problem that we're both dealing with and just manifest it in different ways. And there's that fear of change, too. I think in your example, you kind of inspired me with this thought, which is, I think, in dating, we are always chasing to replicate the feelings we've had before. So we tend to, you know, we can overlay the current experience with previous and say, um, I don't feel like this before. And if it doesn't feel familiar, we kind of want to get away from it for some reason. But the reason why we're still dating is because the previous experiences haven't worked out. So maybe chasing more of that change in feelings and experience is a better way to go what you described was a little bit uncomfortable, but you leaned into it because it wasn't a feeling that you had felt before. And in your book, you feel very strongly about the sentiment of not having someone or convincing someone to choose you. That shouldn't be that shouldn't be something that you're after. Tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, so I talk about that a lot that you can't make someone choose you. The fact is people love who they love and it's heartbreaking to think sometimes you want to be able to have a little bit more control over it that people connect and they're attracted to who they're attracted to. With that said, we oftentimes feel that, especially in relationships where things start out really good, there's all these fireworks. There's a spark, all of those type of things. We think that the moment the person starts to pull away, we just need to try harder. We need to try to convince them we need to change ourselves. We need to prove that we are worthy of love, but at the end of the day, even if that person does, they like, you know what, you know, I'll stick around. I'll try this out. Does that feel good? You're always going to be in a relationship where you had to prove yourself.
00:45:03 - 00:50:08
And I don't think that's ever going to feel good for you and be a very deep connection with someone. Versus if you were in a relationship with someone who's like, let's choose each other. Like, I want to be with you just as much as you want to be with me. And we are choosing each other. It's a much more beautiful, stable feeling. So how did you come out of that? Because you said that you would chase. How did you learn that this was not the right approach? And it was so much better in more fruitful to be with that person that also chooses you. Yeah, I mean, drawing boundaries was the biggest thing I knew how I wanted to feel in a relationship. I knew that I had just been through enough that I didn't want to keep repeating the same crappy dynamic in my past relationships. So boundaries definitely helped. I said that I wanted, I decided that I wanted to be treated a certain way with respect. I wanted to not be made to feel like I was less than that my boyfriend or my partner, and holding those boundaries and also holding boundaries for just feeling more like myself outside of the relationship too. I remember I drew this such specific boundary, which was, I told my boyfriend when we first started dating, I needed to leave his apartment by ten, so I could get back to my 10 p.m.. So I could get back to my apartment and have time to get a good night's sleep so I can then write the next day because when your brain's just any work when you're tired and you don't do well, but especially when you're a writer, just does not end well. So I hear that boundary and upholding that boundary and even just having my boyfriend respect it too was just a game changer. I was like, wow, this is definitely not something I'm used to. So I was going to ask you, that's a good follow on. What were the signs that this one was different? After you kind of did those. There's so many signs. Well, I talked about the consistent taxing was a big one. It was actually a great story. We were friends before, so we were friends for a couple of years, had a mutual guy friend group. And we did date for three dates. And when I said that that consistent texting really weirded me out. Oh. It actually caused me to decide not to date him anymore. I sent him a text, not the best. And was just like, I'm not feeling this anymore. I think we should go back to being friends. And we did that for about another 6 months and it was during that time that I really realized I was like, I think I'm just cut things off way too soon. I think I may mistake. He started dating someone else and I actually wrote an article about this, which is really cute to look back on, but I was like, I really feel like I made a mistake with this friend and you know now he's doing someone else or something I can do. But you know, fate aligned and 6 months later, we were at a friend's going away party and we hit it off again and we decided to go on a date. But that date was the two hours before he had to leave for a work trip for 6 weeks. Wow. So we went on our date. I drove him to the airport, 'cause I lived nearby. And we had one pet kiss and he left on the airplane for 6 weeks. And it was during that time. There was, and it was to India too. Wow. There is not a single day that he didn't miss texting me. And it wasn't an overwhelming amount of text. And with that said, India, parts of India that he was in, did not have the best reception. So he really tried to make really tried to text me and everything. And it was actually a really interesting experience to the beginning of our relationship because he asked questions about me. That's another thing I wasn't used to. Truly genuinely wanted to know about my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. So on top of the consistent text saying, respecting my boundaries never pressuring me, sexually, never pressuring me to move into relationship too quickly. Always respecting and being open to talking about things even from the get go even from the beginning of the relationship were clear signs that he was much different than the people I had dated. I think when they keep communication while they're away, is a huge. It's the best way to tell. The biggest green flag you could possibly find. Because a lot of people feel like, especially in early dating, you only win on one date. They feel like, oh, I'll just talk to you once you get back or once I get back, but if they keep the communication going, it means they're serious. They want you. Exactly. And if they want to communicate when it's not convenient for them, it shows that it's not just this is easy and then bored or whatever. It was a really interesting experience that I know obviously not everyone can go through that nor is that something that you should have to go through, but it was really interesting because we just got to know each other on such a deep level because again, he was asking so many questions and 6 weeks of communicating. You can learn a lot about each other. So it definitely was helpful for my anxiety and dating too because I could definitely reason with myself in those moments. Like, oh, he's texting me a lot or oh, he made a stupid dad joke and that's kind of cringe for me to be step back and be like, that's really not that big of a deal, kirsty.
00:50:09 - 00:55:13
Ignore the feeling. You know what's so funny is I've heard this happen so many times and one of my close friends has happened to when she first met her partner. She was not interested at all, but she was chasing guys in the band that were totally out of the ball. And it was that she did the self work and then she saw this person that was essentially there the entire time as someone completely different. I think in the beginning he was boring. He wasn't interesting. And then those characteristics, well, first of all, she didn't see him as boring. I guess I don't want to say like all of a sudden you're into boring because that's not the case. But it was that she changed what she was attracted to and started to see him in a different light. So you talk about this year break that you did. Was that kind of the pivotal point for you that you started to see things in a different way? Or was there something else? It was, well, the catalyst was those two horrible breakups with emotionally unavailable men that got me to take the year break from dating, but yes, it was during that time, I had been dating back to back, I'm not even kidding you. It's a little bit embarrassing. Back to back relationships for a decade. And it really just never took a break from it all. I never just tried to love being single, and I'm not saying that people have to love being single forever, but just enjoy it for a little bit if you are. And yeah, during those moments, I was like, okay, I can see the light. This is this work that I'm doing. I read attached. I read research papers. I was seeing a therapist. I talked with friends, all of that just really opened my eyes and juiced. I'm so thankful I took that year off because it made all the difference. And then when you say a year off, you mean no dating at all. There was absolutely no dating. Four, the most part. I've always wondered if someone would ask me that question. Good fun. Leave it to you. For the most part, I did go on a couple of dates. There was actually one time where I saw a cute yoga, he wasn't a yoga chapter, but he worked at the front desk of a yoga place, and I was like, I was really into him, blah, blah, blah, there was this whole story, but I left. And I was like, I should have asked for his number. And so I called the studio because I was like, this is a moment for me to be proactive and kind of take things into my own reins. I called the studio anyways, we went on a date, did not go well. So there was like little things like that, but nothing big. So now that you've learned all about yourself, we kind of started off this conversation with some of the lies that we've been told to about just the magazines we read or the movies we watch. What are some truths that you've learned? Now that you've had this reflection time. So the big one we touched on already is you do not want to be with someone you have to force to choose you. That's a very big one. Relationships should be work, but they should not be hard, painful work, like crying on the floor of your bathroom after you have a fight because they're stonewalling you or something like that. You can create boundaries from the get go with people and even on the first date and doing that is going to feel a whole lot better than not having any boundaries. Oh, a big one is the things you feel like you have to hide on dating apps or on the first date are actually the things that you should be showing on your first date or on the apps. Things that you should lean into. And okay, let me let me reel that back in, especially with reactions. She's like, my third symbol, I'm just gonna tell everybody about it, okay? Okay, so to an extent, if you're like, there's a limit. There's a limit. So if you're like, I'm I need to act chill. I need to have the cool girl. You being like, I need to hide that I am someone who has a lot of emotions. I need to hide that I'm someone who has a lot of needs. So instead of, and when you hide those feelings of that you're an emotional person, when you hide that part of yourself, love is never going to feel good. You're going to find people who don't want that from you because if they're attracted to you when you're not showing it, then they're not going to be attracted to you. When you do show it. And that's what a lot of people the toxic cycles people get into. So if you're like, I need to hide this about myself. In terms of your authentic self and a deeper sense of who you are, you should actually find ways to show it on first second, third dates. Maybe not the third nimble. You don't have to put it in your profile. They'll figure it out sooner earlier. Let that be a special surprise. You have a very interesting viewpoint on soul mates. You don't believe in soul mates. Tell us about that. Yeah. Maybe this is the realist in me, but I just truly can not believe that we are only going to be a good connection with one person on this planet. And I mean, even if we get a little bit morbid here, God forbid, your partner passes away, I really hope that if they do that, that happens in your 30s, your 40s, I really hope that you can mourn and move on, but eventually find another person that you can love and be in a great relationship too.
00:55:14 - 01:00:02
I just think that when it comes to the idea of soulmates, people can get so caught up in that idea that they disregard red flags, they think that it doesn't matter because that person's my soulmate, we don't need to put in the work because that person's my soulmate, things like that. Just, it's just not, it's not realistic and I don't think that it creates a healthy mindset for people when they believe in that. And it's such a high expectation for someone. It is. It really is very highly education. You're everything, yes. Right, yes. Find a great connection, but don't buy into this idea of like the other half, you are a whole, if you don't feel like a whole change things about your life build up a life that you really love, and also bring in your partner, then you'll be two holes and think two holes is better than one whole. It's even even better. Whole with a W, I just want to make sure that people are hearing that, right? Yes. You can't bring your with a double too. Exactly. That's exactly. Julie, actually, I don't know your take on soul mates. What do you think about soulmates? You know, I used to believe in them, but I feel like, well, actually, okay, I do believe in soul mates, but I don't believe in them that they should be the person you end up with. I think I believe in them in the sense that soulmates are here to teach you a lesson about you. To shake your soul and I've read a lot of articles about this, that there is a big difference between a soulmate and a life partner and the life partners who you go through life with in the soul mate is the person that teaches you the lesson. And I definitely have had both. My past ex, I believe was by soulmate, because it really changed how I viewed love in it. Honestly, kirstie, I know you don't believe in soul mates, but I kind of feel like we're solvates right now, because everything you've said, I resonate with so much. But I really think that he was there to teach me about myself and to take that your break and step back, all of that was my story too, and that allowed me to find the partner I have today that is more of who I could see myself doing life with. Right. Hey, that's a different mindset behind them. And I love that. I also have heard people say that we have multiple soulmates. So I mean, I definitely can get behind that, especially with the idea of soulmates even being platonic. I love that. That's amazing. Yeah. I just think of the idea of it's the one person you must want. I don't believe in the one. I don't believe in the one either. There's so many. And also, I agree. I don't think it has to be romantic by any sense. My soulmate is my cousin. She was she and I just have a soulful connection. She gets me. I get her. But I agree. It doesn't have to be a romantic soul mate at all. Right. So now that you've learned all the things you've learned, for anyone that's struggling right now, because we know a lot of people are, which is why we wanted to do this episode with you because I hope that other people also find you to be their soulmate that they can really resonate with what you're saying. What is one piece of advice that you would have of something that you now that you wish you knew back then that you now know? You would think this would just pop into my mind since that's basically what my entire book is. Ah, there's so many things and I feel like I touched on a lot of them, so I'm trying to think of something I haven't already said. The biggest one is honestly the one I already mentioned about the authenticity really trying to show your authentic self on dates because that was by far one of my biggest issues and I think would have scared away a lot of the people that I ended up dating. But don't take things so personally. That's definitely a big one. Don't take things personally because before it just used to be, you know, you're not going to be a match with most of the people you date. I read somewhere that was like the best mindset you can have in dating is that you're not going to be a good match with 90% of the people you date. Especially if you're showing up as your authentic self, which is so true, so get really good with rejection, rejection doesn't have to always feel so personal. But just even nowadays with modern dating, jeez, you could be a good connection with someone and they could just not be interested in a relationship or they could secretly be married. I really hope that doesn't happen, but I just hear that so much or they're divorced, but they're actually just separated those type of things that you're all the time. It's like every rom com on Netflix right now. Right? So yeah, don't try not to take things so personally. If you do, don't beat yourself up. Maybe get a second person's opinion on things, usually our friends can be a really great objective standpoint to things. But if you take rejection personally, it's going to be really hard to go through dating and not feel completely hopeless. Yeah. Yes. Very good advice. Well, yeah, I mean, there's so many takeaways I've had from this entire conversation.
01:00:02 - 01:05:00
Thank you so much for shedding light on your own experience and how this can relate to everyone. I think the biggest takeaway I have is that while it is important to do the work on yourself, that doesn't mean that you don't get into relationships either. No one is going to be perfect ever and part of it is relational awareness and how it comes up for you. That being said, I do think one of the best things that you mentioned and I've done myself too is taking that break. If you're feeling like you are so burnt out and you are doing the same thing over and over and over again, sometimes the best way to speed up is to slow down and take that time of reflection. And that doesn't mean it needs to be forever because I think there is a time in the place of taking that break versus like perseverance and just keep going and getting through it. So much of it is the relationship with yourself. Once you feel like you're in more of that confidence state, I think it becomes a lot easier to keep going with dating because you can say actually I want to feel this way or I know this is important to me less about EMI, the person for this person or what do they think about me. So look at the language you're using. Look at how you're showing up. Look at, is it the definition of insanity that you're doing the same thing over and over and over again? Or is there progress being made? Because I think that can give light into, is it a break that's needed? Or is it just to push to keep going? Right. I love that. The break thing really is resonating with me because I think a lot of our listeners will say that they want to take a dating hiatus. And they mean cold turkey, hiatus, not talking to anybody, be a hermit, work on themselves. And I truly believe that's not the most healthy way to reset your dating mentality. I think a reset or when you take a break is when you're not so results driven or obsessed, let's say. You're not tied to the result of finding someone. When you're taking a break, you're in this experimental, open mindset stage where you try different things like getting the phone number of the yoga front desk person. That's something you would never do normally. You're not tied to the result of marrying that guy. You were just kind of like, hey, I want to experiment and see how this makes me feel. I love that. And I think that goes into my next takeaway, which is we want to change our dating situations. That's why we're dating the previous relationships didn't work out. Yet, we're so scared of change at the same time. So if we can lean more into the change, the only way to have change is you lean into the change and not fight against it, it will Garner more change. That is just how it works. A plus B equals C in this situation. And the anxiety that comes up, I like that you described kind of feeling the anxiety and not avoiding it because when we overcompensate and avoid it, then we just push it down and it just erupts at some point. I think it's important to disclose the anxiety to communicate about the anxiety, Julie, you talked about controlling your anxiety. So if you know you have those anxious feelings coming up, be the first person to call and reach out. Be the person to say, hey, I get a little anxious if I don't hear from someone in three days. I'm just going to tell you up front. And I appreciate persistent communication. All of the things to know that we are in control of our love lives and we're writing this book ourselves and it can go in any direction. So don't put it in the hands of someone else because they're just going to scribble whatever they want on it. And it's just not going to be pretty. I think just one last takeaway I have to the kind of relates to what you said in many ways. One is, why are you taking this break? Is it about you and can you start to peel back the behavior a little? Because what we talked about with fear, I think that really resonates so much that fear is what is at the root of so much that drives us. And if you can look at I'm doing this out of fear and identify what that fear is, then that's so much more powerful than just saying, oh, the apps are broken or I have anxious attachment or whatever it is. How can you make it actionable at the end of the day? How can you look at what it is that's truly driving you and learn how to get ahead of it and not be so scared because I think when you're able to be fearless in a say fuck it, I don't care if I am rejected or whatever, that's when you're dating life starts to really make moves. I think so much of this really is hiding behind fear and we often don't think about fear what we think about anxiety. In fact, anxiety is just leaning into the fear opposed to owning it and making it work for us. Right, that's well put.
01:05:01 - 01:08:57
I always say, I've been using this analogy a lot lately, but kind of just sum up what you just said in a good way is to stop dating on autopilot, which a lot of times that autopilot is in those very fear anxious states and to start taking control of the plane and being like, what's going on here? How can I do things differently? Because often we'll just date, they not be aware of what's going on, not be aware of what doesn't make us feel good. So it's like taping that step back and peeling back the layers like you said and getting off of autopilot. That's just the best thing you can do for yourself. Right. We hear people taking breaks of day day. It just uninstalling the apps. And then a month later, reinstalling them. And then uninstalling reinstalling. I think there's a big difference between taking a break to reflect and try new things versus a break to just repeat the same patterns. Right. And like you guys said, change. The change if you want change, you have to create change and change feels uncomfortable. So just because it's uncomfortable, does not mean it's not the right thing to do. Yes, embrace that discomfort. And I do want to open this up for any of our listeners to share their own personal journeys because we love these personal journey stories. Thank you so much, Chrissy, for sharing yours. It's just so helpful 'cause everyone's always like, how did you get yourself out of it? How did you get out of the rut? How did you make these changes? So this is an open forum for open invite for anybody else who wants to share their story. So your book, what I wish I knew about love, where can people find it? Yeah, so it's on Amazon. My publisher's thought catalog, so it's sold on thought catalog as well. It's Apple books too. You can find it in the link in my profiles on my social media. Yeah. You know, we alluded to you having a great TikTok channel. And Instagram stories also, where can people find you on social media? Yeah, I love TikTok, so definitely if you find me on there. Yes, she does. But her boyfriend will never be on it. So that's the boundary. Right? I'm like, will there ever be a day where we do something really cool and just show your face, but I'm like, I won't pressure him. But you can find me on Instagram or TikTok as kirsty Taylor, kayi. Two hours at the end. Well, we're all about creating boundaries on this podcast. Our boundary is that we don't have any boundaries, really. We just say anything goes. Which is why we invite everyone to review us on Apple podcasts, 5 stars, you know, just setting the boundaries there, like 5 stars, kind of like the boundaries. Right, a little something nice. We love that. We always appreciate that and because of your reviews, we can get guests like kirsty here. So thank you for all of you who've given us reviews. And on that note, we're going to wrap up this episode thanks again kirsty for being on our show. Thank you. Thank you. Wrapping this up. The dateable podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Find more podcasts you'll love at frolic media slash podcasts. Want to continue the conversation? First, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter with the handle at dateable podcast. Tag us in any post with a hashtag stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts. Then head over to our website dateable podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles, videos, and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium Y series where we dissect, analyze, and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We're also downloadable for free on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google Play, overcast, stitcher radio, and other podcast platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us, so don't forget to leave us a review. And most importantly, remember to stay dateable.