KiYonna brings a conversation with her cousin about women making the first move. We talk about gender roles and how modern dating has gotten more judgmental.
S1E6 First Move
00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
And i move so i loves. We are excited. You've join us for an older episode. While our earlier seasons were all about dating in san francisco we quickly realize all the themes. Learnings are universal for all daters so we shifted to covering dating from all around the world as the seasons progress. The fun part is things happen. I san francisco the tech epicenter and counterculture capital of the world. We love for you to keep tuning in to our older episodes. But there's no set order to listen in so feel free to jump to more. Recent seasons are relevant episodes for you. Enjoy the show. This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches meet like minded people who share your interests over brunch. Everyone welcome to another episode of dateable. A show that opens up a candid conversation about dating in san francisco. Beautiful wonderful sexy voice. You just heard was my main woman you a and that sort of sexy voice you just heard sort of was that my co host. Michael vargas on each episode. We dissect a dating story and today we have a lovely guest kiana on the line with us. Hello hey girlfriend. i'm excited archana. Can you please tell us the story that you got for us today. So mine is not necessarily a story about a date that i've been on but more just some wonderful feedback and conversation that i've had my male cousins about why i'm still single and i mean i guess everyone needs some honest feedback every now and then i take it. Apparently you're male cousin is good for that. Apparently all of them are good for that. So i was at a family reunion over the summer and my cousin decided to sit down with me and just say kiana like what's going on. You should be with someone by now. What's going on and i was like. I don't know you tell me. And he said they really well. I think you're probably just not aggressive enough. And i'm pretty sure that men approach you plenty and you shut them down immediately and he's not to blame you for that because the mid that are approaching you probably the ones that spent the most game. I'm pretty sure you have never approached the guy when you're out in public that you like He said that. I need to think about making the first move but in my opinion i told him i want a guy who's still is aggressive and likes me enough. That wants to come up to me but he was like. But you know when that happens. Those aren't the right guys. So how do you figure this out. And i'm like. I have no clue like this. Is i guess why i'm single. If i knew how to discern between the two i would have a boyfriend. Maybe but i think that's kind of one of the things of whether it i women these days need to make the i knew For the type of guy who is not aggressive. And i think in san francisco's especially so i need to be think about. I want someone who's a little bit more humble than maybe i need to make the first move. According to my cousin. This is my problem. I have a very strong opinion. I want to hear that. Because i needed more. Go ahead you hit it. I i don't believe the girl should ever make the first move as this is. Why don't believe in bumble. I don't believe that app works. I believe in messaging someone on tinder. I i just don't believe in approaching guys because psychologically guys feel like they need to work for a woman now some may disagree with me A lot of men have actually tried to argue with me but then when you get to the core of it men wanna feel like they accomplished something they earned something so if a woman makes that too easy than her stock value goes down that i agree with that one hundred percent. This is why i never. I had like a rule that i would never ever right. Someone i on any dating site like to know that you're interested me so show me right. I think he was saying though. But the guys who are trained to do that or the ones you're used approaching women and are constantly doing that and they're the ones playing the most games so how'd you get mail side. Yes yeah so what. If you really like the guy i mean. Have you had that. Were you really like the guy. I mean so you really like him. But you're not gonna make the first move. I mean i guess yeah. I need to know what i think.
00:05:00 - 00:10:01
I have to know what has brought me to really like him. I i mean i have. We already started talking. Is it friends of friends. Then i mean. I try to make it aware like i'm kind of interested like you try to put it out there subtly but i'm saying like before like the whole initiation states i i still don't approach anyone before you even know you them right okay. So this is just pri pri pri in the beginning how do you feel when girls hit on you i i love it. Usually i have a lot of fun with that. And i also like being the first person to hit on another person so i'd like it both ways. Truthfully there's something to be said for someone in general who just goes after what they want. But i do agree that a lot of guys want to chase they'd like to be the aggressor. They wanna be the first person to initiate but i also think if someone you know if someone finds someone interesting that they should just go first regardless of if it's a man or woman so let me ask you. This guy need an opinion. So if i'm out the the type of guys do you agree that the tackle guys are more likely to approach me are the ones that are mostly like more confidence. Always wants constantly chasing women and not look like the slick ones and the smooth ones. The smooth operators not necessarily the ones that are maybe a little bit more. I don't know what's the word substantial long-term if it it depends on the environment right input data bar or a club and then they come up to you. I think that is like a slick kinda targeting individual. That probably has done this a thousand times. And here's no as a potential. Yes but if you're like at a house party or something like that and you around a bunch of friends or some people you don't know or you know something that's a little softer than that. And then they come up to you. I think i think that's a friendlier It feels like a more honest approach at that point. That's a very good point. It's all in context in the environment. You're in. I do agree like if a guy came up to me at a bar club or on the street. The first thing you do is to suspect what he's after right. The first thing a girl wants to do is reject him no matter how qualified he may be. But if if it's at a house party at a company then if it's like something where you feel comfortable then you're like oh this guy great so maybe we should turn it back around and say kiana. Maybe you should put yourself in a better environment where you can be hit on by people more substance so that means like church research cleaner. Joe's you know. Fatally marina safeway again. hiking trips. Meet up group producer. Julie wants to save them. I feel like brought up a good point about like people approaching real life. And i think san francisco has this problem that now because everyone's like head down in their computers dating apps. No one actually approaches you. So how do you deal with the approach that way. Yeah because i feel like a lot of guys who don't even approach me. Maybe i should say like online. Oh they only know how to there's two groups one that only knows how to me these days online like if i were to meet them out in public which has actually happened like met someone out in public met online and they were still too afraid to talk to me and they actually went back home and wrote me on the dating app later. I saw you out tonight as happened. And so it's kind of like we've moved away from actually like meeting people in person and approaching people like only having it behind the screen and the guys love really interested in our approach to me and person anymore. I have to agree with a lot of that steaming. The beautiful thing about online at had a lot of great ability for us to communicate with each other. The not so beautiful thing is that now. The method of communication is more online and people are scared. More in person they're a lot of people are very terrified terrified but they don't feel secure in going up to someone face to face because then they person get rejected when you do it online. At least it's still filter screen. Well i think the problem with san francisco specifically is that. I've i've seen men in many cities and the men in san francisco are just not hungry. I went to a party during fourth of july. It was like eighty percent men and twenty percent women. And i asked the guys. i'm like. Why why would you still stay at this party. In any other city guys will be like peace out. I'm done with a sausage fest but the guys at this party were like i'd rather hang out with my guy buddies. Try to bring girls to this party.
00:10:01 - 00:15:01
I have more fun. That way is just like their laxed is sort of like hunger for some reason. How do we get you guys to be hungry again. Ball just war graham. Megan come on. Maybe i should have told my cousins. No the problems actually haven't been naked in a clue as nikonov problem. We're facing see this. Is that women are basically stealing the roles of men right. We're like becoming more aggressive. We're becoming more powerful so therefore men don't know how to approach women anymore. It's very intimidating. I had to pretend to be a guy for a day. A don't ask me why it was an experiment not physically but just think like a guy for a day and approach as many women as possible and it was really hard. Everyone has like resting bitch. Face these days isn't it right like true. I catch myself it all the time. I wanna go back to kiana dilemma. Which is should she be approaching more men. I personally think that there's nothing wrong with that. I think that a lot of guys honestly to to there's a lot of men that would really like. I'm sorry but honestly what man would would hate it if a woman approached him. Come up i guess. That's the point. No one's going to hate it. Nobody's going to hate it. Every guys love it. Because the thing is i can approach guy and i don't think he's going to be like oh no. Don't talk to me like no way but at the same time like i don't know if he's going to take me seriously right like i feel like if i approach him. Did i make it so that. It's too easy now and i don't. I'm not wanna play games. I'm not like trying to play a game. But i'm saying like does it immediately in his head register as this girl's really easy. Maybe even desperate i would say probably yes and you can also make sure that the rest of the time. Isn't that easy yet. First impressions really matter. And there's always the reach or and the settler in a relationship. And i think once you start out as a retailer you become the reader in the relationship. I think is sets the tone for that. I'm just going off science which is based off the bachelor and the bachelorette series. Where if you look at the number of couples have worked out. They've always been more successful on the bachelor than the bachelorette the bachelorette. None of those couples have ever worked out because the woman chose i just. I just think there is a different way. Maybe it's not hitting him. But maybe it's i contact without verbally hitting ray yes. I agree with that completely. Like if i'm looking at you. And i see you looking at me and kind of give a half smile away. Got it message receive. That's the okay you can come and talk to me. Look how long should we be lingering for i. Contact wise five seconds six forty minutes twenty minutes a lot of word calling the cops just staring at you for twenty minutes. Say anything that is creepy to see for you. When you see that. I see and there's like a beat of a moment where lasts a little bit longer than normal and then you kind of slowly look away or do a little smile. I think that's not. That's so hard to do. it's easy. It's so hard to try. That and i just felt like a lunatic me too. Which is why you don't do it. I'm like no that seems so weird so awkward. i think let's go back to the culture of san francisco with approaching in bars. Because i feel like it's gone. Downhill with data gaps. So i i haven't really like in terms of people approaching me in bars versus online to this is another interesting phenomenon. I have to say this. I'm a black female. Dating in san francisco so it brings a little bit of a different perspective. But so i do feel as though people are more comfortable approaching online but at the same time the guys are personnel. Line versus type. Two guys that in person are very different. Right so online. I also feel like. I get screened out a lot of the time because you can be so picky right. You can say upfront. I want this guy tall. I want him in this ethnicity. I want him to make sometimes in certain apps. This much money have this degree Etc so you like pre filter so many people so that's the other thing. My cousin was like you're so picky has also bred this culture of being super picky right with anyone that does approach you that you do see and everything you feel like. There's so much opportunity that you just kind of like can weed out like majority of people. And so i'm not i i do feel like i'm not as head right to a lot of people but at the same time. A lot of people aren't as open to me online.
00:15:01 - 00:20:03
So i try like i do notice that there is a very big difference between bidding approach bars and the type of guys that approached me when they meet me in per said those are not the type of guys ever approach me online. I absolutely i mean they see a different person when they see you because they see your vibe. They see your personality. The problem with online is that it's great for certain people you gotta know your market if you're a tall white man you're killing it online chilly killing it you. You may get nobody in real life but online you're killing it. I mean everybody's swiping right for you. But if you're a woman of certain ethnicities or if you're short mail you are. That is not the market for you. Yeah no one's approaching you online. That's not gonna you give out or you get filtered. Invite all the crows fetish guys. I think what we need to get to is. How do we wear. And how do we make ourselves more available for us to be hit on by the right people. Yeah i think. Well i kinda wanna maybe challenge that idea of maybe getting hit on versus just going out to a community getting to know people and then kind of going from that space as opposed to just getting hey on issue and i do feel like i meet people. More organically always works out a lot better. That's one hundred percent true. I do think though it's still hard to find that organic group and To find the right match or the might the right group and mix of people. That's a very specific san francisco problem to just because like nobody works traditional hours really. Everyone's working a job aside startup. it's not like when we were in school or like very traditional corporate jobs. We're we had very solid social circles. Now it's like have to go out go out and find that. Yeah and we have the tribe literally everything in the city to find that group right. It's really tough on another part. Two is kinda almost contradicting myself. But i'm not completely where i remember. I had a situation like a little while ago. Where i was at a bar and at my back was on someone and so i just started dancing. Kinda like back to back. I had no idea it was on my back in. This person was dancing with me. And then i turn around and it was this woman and we started talking and it was. It was organic. It was an accident it was a happy accident bumped into each other started dancing then. We actually saw each other then. We started dancing all night and having fun and then we had a good time. Foods sell you making the first movie. Oh that's yeah so. I'm rub my back on every guy at then. Hopefully he'll probably work. Actually i think we have stumbled upon the new pickup method in san francisco. Shoot it could be like the most empty room. You just happened to you. Know whatever you. You have no spatial awareness. Whatever that's just people on the street of course tangent but my friend in vegas spotted the sky that she really liked and she had be pushed her in the lisi over at him and then they headed off that works. It is when you create serendipity at works my buddy and i we used to go to the park and they're on a frisbee and we would call it fishing where i would accidentally on purpose throw the frisbee into group of girls. He catch it and then we'd start playing with them and then kids gone from their eighties. Lafayette park on saturday. You guys. I think we're onto something as much as we're joking about this. I think one having a good wing woman or wing man next to you and to finding that finding those opportunities where you can create serendipitous moments. Right yeah so it's not necessarily being blunt and like heading on them directly by maybe invading their personal space a little bit. we go is throwing frisbees their direction. I got it. I got it. I have olten twos called like the white handkerchief approach where the woman with like the ro- down her handkerchief. We'll come into the same but in a modern. Oh i'm gonna start throwing carrots better for the environment and it's cisco just start throwing keen wall everywhere her and the other takeaways michael. Let's see i think one of the things. I'm taking away as like we as people need to be open for situations to happen right was talking about how no she wants people to make the first move and guys if something's happening like just go with it like they might not have been a direct.
00:20:03 - 00:23:30
I move but indirectly. Something's happening so allow yourself to be open for that so that you know you might get to discover a relationship by accident. Yeah definitely goes both ways. It feels like i will be more open. And i'm hoping that guy's listening to this will be more open to do. You know create that moment. I might be very blunt or the frizzy right there and has written on. Love it okay. Let's go on to our question of the day. I do have a question. It's sort of related. My friend asked me over this weekend. She's like what is the protocol for dating someone who used to date one of your friends maybe not an ex boyfriend or an ex girlfriend but some who may have gone on a few dates with them now. This is very common for san francisco because the dating pool is small and we all know each other and somehow we've all dated each other right but she was at a dinner where her friend had introduced her to some guy that the her friend just started dating and My friend recognized him from dating app and they had just recently connected so she she was like what is the protocol for something like that. Yeah answers and if there's a couple of variables the first one is. How long did the people date. And how long ago did meet and then also more importantly how do they feel now post break up even if it was years ago was the love of their life and it would still be uncomfortable. I think that's second here like if you went on like two dates and it was a year and a half ago. I'm not going to check with the like. I'm just not going to happen. No no no what. Why guy code and girl code may be different. Even if my friend went on one date with a guy i would feel like he was a little bit off limits. A little bit. i would need to check in. I feel like one or two days. Like i still feel like i need to check like oh you dated him like first of all. Do you think we'll hit it off because like why didn't that work out. And then second of all like is that cool. Most of the time they will be totally fine with it. It's more like you're not gonna find out some other way true. You just have to communicate right if she was apart enough for him to talk to me about it like on a consistent basis then we need to have a discussion. Think that's a good guideline. Have you guys ever heard of pinky buddies. Oh i only gas would that be. It's free if we ended up sleeping with the same person were considered like pinky buddies. Or something like eskimo twins guy sisters for hobos history notices. I never heard that one before. I'm just not going to have any sort of penetration for the next ten years to avoid all of this. Okay michael dion. Wrap this up all right. So i think that's it for today. Don't forget to submit your stories and remember we can keep your name anonymous. You can be john doe or jane doe. We will keep all party safe and one more thing. You stay dateable but dateable. Podcasts is recorded in san francisco we would like to thank our sponsor five hundred branches per making this happen to connect with us visit date. Able podcast dot com.