Brian Howie from the Great Love Debate shares with us what he’s learned from talking to single men and women across the US and beyond. We discuss the differences between cities, the overarching issues nationwide, and the changing gender dynamics especially with the #metoo movement
S6E1 The Great Love Debate In Every State
00:00:00 - 00:05:13
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
Hello everyone we are back for season six. Thank you guys for an incredible two years. Julian i are fully committed to this for the long haul. Yup it's official. We've dt hard and we hope you'll be along for the ride to and keep spreading the word we love building out the dateable family and it's such a great treat to run into guys at events on the street or even in my dance class just absolutely crushing it on the dance floor. We're now at almost a million listens. Thanks to you guys. In off season we started doing. Some facebook live with past guests which included bottle. Ned remember him. The guy who believes the secret to dating in san francisco is to go out of san francisco date. And also taylor who brought us some very exciting techniques for approaching people in real life. She also revealed to her. Real name is melissa. So we'll keep doing these. Facebook lives throughout the season. Just follow us on facebook instagram. So you know when we're going live for this season will be rolling out something brand new. You ready we'll be offering you a platform to connect with vetted dating experts to bring you profile reviews. Coaching and mock dates will only renew people. We trust so you can trust them to up your eating game. Look for that feature on our website at dateable podcasts dot com also for season six. We'll be going out of san francisco. We've done this in the past. We've interviewed guests from other cities but this season in particular we've had quite a number of guests who live outside of san francisco in date outside the city. So we're not just going national we're going international. And lastly julian. I checked out a really great show called fucked tinder a love story. It's a one man show that starts out with some hilarious true dating stories but then rolls into a very touching love story with a twist. The show is touring the country with some new dates added to san francisco so go to the website f dash tinder dot com for all the details. It's definitely worth checking out. Okay season six here. We go the dateable podcast features real stories from real people of how they make modern dating work for your host. Ua former dating coach turned skating insider on each episode. You'll hear commentary from my producer. Julie crosscheck and other surprise co hosts. This episode is brought to you by hired club where friends help friends find jobs. You guys we all know how challenging it is to find a new job club makes it easy. You can post a job or refer a friend for one. You can also get career. Coaching with professional career. Counselors to improve your resume. Increase your salary. We're practice interviewing more. Join today at higher. Club dot com. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating today. We don't have our guest in the studio but we do have him on skype with us. A great technology just brings us closer no matter where we are with brian. Howie on the line. How are you brian. All you good. So just a little intro about brian. He's in his forties. He's originally from new york and lives in l. a. Currently he is dating someone but have not defined the relationship. We're going to get to that in a sec. But what mixed. Brian really interesting is first of all you and i have a mutual friend. Julie alexandria earlier this morning to get some dirt about you. Status is really changed for the better. Oh yeah she recently got engaged. She's like the as can be. But brian is the host and creator of the great love debate world tour and associated top rated podcasts. He has been featured on fox. Abc c. n. Entertainment weekly the new yorker esquire magazine time magazine named him. America's number one dating enthusiast. Dating that i like the miami herald calls him datings leading influence. Our and you can hear more about the great love debate because you guys have been on tour. You've onto over seventy nine cities nationwide. That's crazy that's awesome. Eighty one three three last into one in york allow back. Oh wow we did. Our three hundred show Last week in charlotte three hundred shows. We've done can you tell us a little more about what the great love to betas anyone. That's listening that may not know well. We we've traveled around Literally the world and in theaters comedy clubs and other places and we have We bring together a couple hundred usually single but not always Men and women and over the course of ninety minutes in a fun feisty form we try and break down the walls and the disconnect between the men and the women and find out why all of these seemingly reasonable people are either single or a single again or some of those who aren't single probably should be single and Every show is different every did different every crowds different so it goes all sorts of directions.
00:05:13 - 00:10:00
Got it's even to eighty one cities. Nationwide three hundred shows. Have you gone international. yeah canada. We were just in asia. We are going to all sorts of places because it's really the only thing that you go anywhere in the world that people can have an opinion on our share an anecdote honor or voice What they feel about love dating relationships in something for everybody in all these different cities you know internationally. What are some of the recurring themes that come up from city to city The the women want the men to try harder and the men want the women and make it easier. Really the crux of the disconnect everywhere. This sort of blurring of the gender roles which we have changed society but we have not changed physiologically and It's really caused a. I mean over the last twenty years the women who've gotten a little harder in the men of that little softer and and so the reaction to that is our way hides behind their technology but a lot of people blame the technology that technology's just the reaction. The the action is things have gotten a little confused and You know these shows tend to break down those walls. Because you're you're forcing men and women to get in a room and have an open dialogue about it. It really helps. We've had that we know of over. Forty couples get engaged or or eventually married from meeting at one of our shows and allow hash it out and and really is just the act of having in an open communication and increase confidence and most importantly let everybody know that they're not the only one who's frustrated or has some issues or pain or some regrets and mostly Find the hope and everybody at sort of what we're doing. We're selling hope here. You are selling hope at the same time you know when you talk about the great love debate. The one i went to new york seemed like it was just a bunch of women bitching. So how do you try to steer the conversation away from that negatively of bitching and complaining to a place of. Let's talk about things in a rational adult manner What i've done three hundred of them and to be honest with with you when we started. I was sort of amused by making it as close to jerry springer shows possible and i. I realized that that the next day or a couple of days later people would wake up in end. Thank you know i didn't. I don't feel better that i went to that. I really you know seal that it's a really scary place. We start and sort of lay out here. Are the problems in this city. And here are the problems in every city and we sort of Over the course of ninety minutes or so. Let me know why they're really not a problem if you do x. y. and z and if you abc and And joe that we're not as far apart as we think that we are if we can just Do a handful of things that mostly come down to confidence in communication and so you the mood changes drastically over the course of an hour half or so. I'm super interested in these sort of gender disconnects. That we you know you have conversations about. I wanna park that for leader. Because i i want to talk about the different cities here in san francisco. We always hear people complaining about their own city. I can date in san francisco because of this issue in this issue in this issue. You're telling us that they're sort of these underlying themes that are consistent across all cities which is women were meant to try harder and men want women to make it easier for them. Are there any differences between these major cities. Yeah san francisco for those of users. There's trouble dating services absolutely brutal it. If it didn't make our worst city in america for two thousand seventeen but if finished second what's the worst is denver. Oh okay that's because we have a lot of san franciscans who wanna move to denver thinking. It's going to be better. No i mean denver. it's sorta just comes out at denver the or too soft and san francisco. The women are too hard. I mean honestly san francisco always say the women here think they're too good for us in the women san francisco say we are absolutely too good for you. Got on that so true. That's really A challenge and You know we've done. Probably seven shows in san francisco and it's one of the toughest places for us to do the show because you know The women kind of convinced themselves at the guys aren't up to snuff and and theory wanna be. Allah dated in their misery this theory for years. There's just a big mismatch of men and women in san francisco because you know. I was in new york for seven years then. I moved to la. And now. i'm in san francisco. And when i moved to san francisco everyone was like it's a gold mine for you.
00:10:00 - 00:15:06
The the numbers are in your favor. You're just going to find someone right away. And i come here and it's just again a lot of single people complaining and yes. The numbers are in our favor in some ways. But it's a huge mismatch. The people who are single. I don't think. I don't think the numbers are in your favor. I mean i think that that it's a lot of the women are like. Yeah there's tons of single guys but they're not the guys i want. That's what i mean. Probably true it's a little bit worse down in silicon valley. It's even worse In terms of you know they're not you know. The women in san francisco are not a real good match for the men in san francisco. It's sort of like if. I put the women in san francisco in new york. It's probably fine so let's go to new york. What is the issue in new york. The issue in new york is that people are so. You're surrounded by people every day and people. It's it's really the loneliest spice. And i'm from new york so i can sort of say this people are really is not a stop and schmooze. People go from point a. to point b. And they only talk at the people to the people at point a. or point b and there's not a real sense of community in new york city. It's also tough because you're never going to see the same person twice or three times or four times like you would in a smaller city where you would go to the same places or you go to happy hour new. It's sort of build a slow momentum over time new york. You don't make your move in a moment that person's gone and at a real challenge that's fairly new york are the most On approachable budge in but people say that new york men specifically are like more aggressive and like all of that. What your thoughts on that. I think they are but they're being aggressive with the woman with women who don't really air about that. I mean that that you took a man in new york moved to denver the women who will be open to your Playful aggression and you'll be fine like there's certain cities that are just a little bit is make the joke that the statue of liberty stands there that resting bitch face city at totally has rb material by look sort of set the bad time for for new york and You know and the other problem in york in new york city in like a lotta cities. The women there watch sex in the city for a decade. Would you want to end up with big bag. They do track in the world and they watch that so they they act like big but they don't look like chris noth so we're his status. His ayumi terrorism charisma. I have to agree. I mean seven years. I was in new york. I dated the most ever in my life. But i was definitely the loneliest and there was some low points in those seven years that ultimately resulted in me moving out of new york so i definitely agree with that sentiment. What about l. a. What are the issues. They're weather honestly really. Is the weather the weather so nice every single day that you can walk your dog go to the beach. Drink your wine and have a reasonably satisfying experience without ever going on a date. So your incentive is not really there e the quality of life is pleasant alone and so people don't have a real incentive to date or they look for reasons like i don't want to traffic i don't wanna go there. I want wanna do that. It's too hard in a lot of people. There's less actual dates going on in los angeles than just about anywhere. You're going to a huge deal in la if you're not with a mile of me i'm not driving in that traffic to come to you. Two hours twenty miles to get a cheap desk at kia other priorities. A little folks. We'll just be and because your quality of day to day life is very pleasant. Generally you don't have any reason to shake that up by sitting across from somebody don't know for hour so people interesting. All of the warm weather nice weather places are like that. Phoenix is like that san diego's like that work in the opposite. if you go to you know minneapolis. You better find somebody to stay warm with in the wintertime and and it's mostly inside and so that does incentivize people to date. That's such of fascinating point. Because when i was in new york and i'm thinking about all of my friends who eventually define the relationship with their partners. It was all a result of some sort of weather condition. It was like it was a blizzard warning and he came over. And we shacked up for three days. And that's we decided that we were meant for each other like those are the moments that you really bond because you really get even even at two chivalrous behavior like if it's raining undermine umbrella. La you're fine that that's hilarious. What about looks in l. eggs. I feel like that. I've never lived in la. So i don't know personally but that's like the perception that's out there is a people are just very superficial or like looking like date really young men and whatnot.
00:15:06 - 00:20:06
I think that's a a little bit of a misnomer. I think there are looking today. Young some of the men because they can You know it's more than insecurity thing but you know the people aren't necessarily you know better looking here than anywhere else is just You know people don't need to really get into that emotional maka traditional baiting will will will happen so when you got when you look at people on a date in los angeles. They're both looking at the door. The both looking at every interesting is like there. Is that stereotype. That's probably like a one percent right like that is what you think. But i mean like the high high high end model on sixty third and fifth in new york you know. She's better than anybody. But that's not the norm. Exactly look people in every city. There's a lot of people here who are like i'm gonna be the opposite of that. 'cause i don't care about the stuff in so there's a lot of people who really Don't look so good at choice interesting. You know but it is outdoors a lot and you are wearing less clothing. I think Lululemon has hurt dating because girls the cute at two o'clock in the afternoon so they have no excuse to go on a date and get all dressed up they can get the attention and compliments anyway apple men bitch that women just wear yoga pants. All i'm in grey sweats like twenty years ago. Actually would you rather have me. We're really tight lululemon leggings or less but then bryan. Where is the best city today in in in the us. We named milwaukee wisconsin. I think they've you'll mary with six kids by now. Milwaukee's like chicago without the bad parts. You know and and the good thing about most of those midwestern cities is that the men and the women socialized together all the time like they'll start out. They'll play sports together. No watch games. And they'll hang out. You see groups of men and women together all the time in chicago in the walkie in cleveland in those places in the south or even denver were seattle. You'll see the men on one side of the room and the women on another side of the room until somebody's drunk enough to cross like eleven thirty that know. sf too. I just we just did show in charlotte the other day and i said on tv. The only like there's no socialized between the men and women. It's not at happy hour or church here and they sort of like yeah. That's true so monday. Through thursday the men and women aren't hanging out the way they are hanging out in in milwaukee milwaukee you can go. You can bond over beer and cheese. Kurds like nothing else. I'm telling you You know what. There's a you bring something that i think about all the time when i first moved to san francisco. There's a level of competitiveness between men and women here because you are literally competing for some of these tech jobs. So there's that competitiveness of not like there's no combat between the two genders. But i think what you're what you're getting is what i'm seeing too is in these midwestern cities where things are a little simpler there. Isn't that competitiveness. Well yeah the simpler times. It was a guy asked out the girl and he would drop me. Took her out and paid for you. Know some of these other cities get they've evolved and it's a wonderful thing insert I bring this anecdote a lot that we did a show in san francisco and a guy stood up and he said. I don't hold the door for women anymore. Because they stopped saying thank you at a woman stood up and said if you need us to say thank you don't do it and and they're both right there. Both wrong is that makes sense. Yeah right and one hundred percent wrong. And that's san francisco. Yeah that's so interesting. So i think it's really fascinating that none of this analysis you pointed to tack his people blame Pack is the reaction to the change. If we everybody's phones away tomorrow they're still not talking to each other people hide behind the tack because they're confused. they're scared. The men of being rejected. The women are afraid of being hurt. And so let's have this barrier but it's not attack attack is the band-aid that sort of holding together. The confusion of you know people like i don't know how old you guys are but anybody who's over thirty five. We used to have to pick you up. Go on a date out now. It seems insane which it shouldn't but that's the way it is and so people are confused because the switch got flipped so until people sort of have either their confidence or their understanding what they're dealing with everybody's gonna hide behind technology so before we get into that.
00:20:06 - 00:25:01
Because i know this much deeper discussion before we get into that. I just wanna play for a sec. Let's just let's just match up the different single people in each city. You're saying san francisco women would do really well in new york we're should then the new york women go The the new york women They should go to texas. Oh they should go to dallas. I don't go sow. Why is that because they would find a certain charm in In southern man that the southern women. No bullshit i love it. She got it like a new york woman goes to tuscany and they sort of like that. italian man behavior. They would get out in in gal so basically rotate the country. Ninety degrees the dallas women go the test. the women Should go to she go to chicago now. The san francisco man not really going to get it done to many places along you hear the beg stop blaming the slave again no matter where we go. It's not that you haven't met the right person that you haven't been the right person. And so a lot of that means that you have to sort of analyze. It's never really the city and it's never really the opposite saxon. It's never really We've done gay shows. And we've done. Asian shows and married shows lack shows. Jewish we've done every possible denomination every breakdown and if you print it out the transcripts to all of them you would not be able to tell the first five minutes which group dealing with him. Because ill comes down to people have lost their ability their their their confidence to communicate face to face. We had a woman come to our show in chicago and she shared an uber pool with a guy. And you know what over pool is and solid night. They don't know what they don't have it yet but she shared over pool with guy. She kind of liked him and she couldn't wait to get out of the car to find them online. Say low. that's where we are now. Instead of just turning her head right she needed to get to the safety of the technology. And we weren't that here too guys could be at a bar sees a girl and then start swiping on tender hoping to find her on their everyone. Here thinks that's unique to san francisco right fascinating. 'cause we're at the point now where we need some sort of virtual approval to do say and that's that's something that's even gotten worse. Obviously last ninety days. It used to be if i came up to. I might get rejected. Now it's i might be a a harasser her. I might end so you know. The men are bailing guys. I ladies that they're they're they're they're like ten percent of the man who are like i don't need the crap me too movement all of that. Today's climate what are your thoughts on all of this. Well i mean what i've noticed since it happened was there is already a big pool of man that were already very close to just say you know what we're two years away from virtual porn. I am out at the get a reasonably satisfying experience with that. Then on the flip side about half the women are like you know what. I'm willing to nuke it at all costs because i've been i've been itching for the spike for twenty years and i don't care what happens and i i want him. That's fine and they have every right to you. Too and on the other half of the women are like shut up. You're going to scare off the rest of the man and we're gonna have no shot so it's like a three way battle going on now And allow the man you know. We used to be You used to be able to flirt at work. Yup thing is. You can't even flirt after work and so the men are like what would you like us to do. Ladies and i've asked women this You know especially over the last three months. What would you like us to do. And because the women don't really have an answer on that because the difference between compliment and creepiest. Who's giving it and the man has no idea how you're going to interpret whatever he's thinking or saying so i don't know i mean the women have no it's confusing. I totally agree. It's confusing even for our podcast. Sometimes i don't know if i'm offending anybody. If i'm saying something that's you know that's a stepping out boundaries.
00:25:01 - 00:30:14
I don't know. I don't know anymore is confusing and i agree. I think it's all on an individual basis as for me. I need a man to take control. I need a man to also be assertive but then also win. I am saying no. Which is when i say no. Well it's hard you're right but sometimes you know and everybody has a right to their story. But some of the most publicized stories. Recently the russell simmons story disease on sorry story. Nobody said no there was no there was thought of now. There was twenty years later. I felt now and so cover gret right so men are like. I don't need the crap. i'm not a mind reader. i'm not gonna and so this was first brought up on our show last year by dr. He's he's done our show and he said that as soon as you know. Somebody's going to be able to put on a helmet and somebody who looks just like blake. Lively is going to tell him. He's awesome in giving reasonably satisfying experience. And that's half a silicon valley right now. Those guys are never going to ask out a girl ever and And you could say well. It's not as good well. They don't know that it's not as good as it's enough and so if we don't sort this out in the next eighteen months it's really a huge problem area. And how can we sort this out. What is this your challenging. Because like there is obviously there's the people that are at the far end of the spectrum that we've talked about and i get wild. The to movement has come full force and definitely understandable. But i hear what you're saying brian. I totally agree with the eighty percent of men. That are not like that way now. It's just terrifying. And like i actually from boston's love to hear your thoughts in boston to I think when i went to holy cross. I know we go. I know boston. Federal all of my friends and i remember when i work there. So many people got married to people they worked with like it was a huge way to meet people. Like that's probably the most common way. I felt like if you say new waiting time. These are the people i mean. You know that that's who you're going to be in contact with. I don't know if you suddenly take that off the table. Which i think we have to take that off the table. Then we better figure out a way to fill up the other sort of fifty hours waking time a week with With interaction but the problem that is there's so much technology that can occupy your time and You know the guys love the video games. Since they feel they can win. They feel can succeed at a video game and so they're entertained and they're stimulated and and they get an adrenaline rush that we used to have to go out to a bar to get you know. And i think the it's not the blame but it is the the the onus responsibility is the women need to get on the same page and they are not now into the men are like eight. I don't feel they have a voice in the in the conversation and And be they feel like that. They're scared to say or make the wrong. Move or say the wrong thing so until the women sort of not only get on the same page as far as strategically how to deal with this but also on some level hacked to acknowledge their role in this and a lot of women get mad at me but there's a i live in los angeles. There's a thousand women who would screw harvey weinstein tomorrow to get a part still. Hey and you can't just say that that doesn't matter. It absolutely matters because it sets an environment where this happens. And i you know. A lot of women are like crazy. That's man's planning on talking about but hey a lot of times you know the alive. Women's problems come from other women. I hear the women. I hear women all the time. Criticizing sarah huckabee sanders Which eight you don't agree with her in which she does her job politics. All i hear is people picking on her looks and that's women and that's girl on girl crime and i think until that stops the men sort of look back passively as approval to act the same way. I i agree. I think women need to get on the same page because we use sexuality when it's convenient in certain contexts so it's either for power or it's either for to play the victim and we need figure out what sexuality is. Because i think i agree. I think we still live in a society where we put men with high status on pedestal and women are willing to do whatever for these men and the reason why these behaviors are happening is because someone told them there was okay and it wasn't another man was was women who told them those okay so we got to start with behavior of how we want to treat sexuality in how we want to use it and you know this whole like sexual liberation i.
00:30:14 - 00:35:04
It's okay for me to sleep my way to the top. Let's be consistent about that. Like i think yeah. I mean there is nothing less empowering that then hearing we're all victims all time like i don't understand that and i don't know how that That does good for anybody and it certainly doesn't be good for for dating culture but you know you have to look at it now like if you're a guy Might not be worth it anymore. It's already not worth it for a lotta guys anyway. I totally get that like i mean. The consequences are just too far. But it's tough because like women are more like independent. We obviously citizen san francisco as you pointed out to like. There's something amazing about that. We don't want to discredit that. But a lot of us even if we are more independence still want that like most skill in mail to step up. But you know one thing you can do as independent women stop saying you're independent women. We get it you can see. There's no reason to say it only says one says two things it says the man i don't need you. Excess to other women. I'm better than you. Yup i think all women are independent women you know so i think that too so so getting rid of that because the men here all day long. I don't need you to do that if we don't work it out. There's only going to be twenty percent of guys left. Were out there still. Trying those guys are gonna be used bax. Yes yes and that is exactly why i was say this. We have to involve each other like the issue with the whole lean in discussion is that it didn't involve men. We need to involve men in these discussions and from the male perspective. I would invite men to interject. Come join the conversation. Because we don't you just gotta get in there like through your sister or mother through someone. You're comfortable with because we need to hear from you guys to and i think we as women need to be more welcoming of well i go into an event tonight where it is a honoring men for For whatever we're supporting women or something and the event was almost canceled because so many women were like we should never honor men at It's really bad. And so the women are mad at the other women. And and yeah i am i am not you know i always say i'm in the business. I am not nearly as hopeful. I never thought things would get better get worse than they were after the election in in two thousand sixteen. That was very man against against women at a but things did get better and by the middle of last year you could feel it around the country and then now it is just hot one socket. It's time to take a quick break so we can tell you about the latest service. We have been building over at dateable. We'll be offering a platform to connect you with vetted. Dating experts from our network to help with everything from dating profile reviews coaching to see where you're getting stuck in dating and even wasted get real feedback about your dating style. The sessions typically run from thirty minutes to an hour and can all be done via skype or google hangouts. So you can be anywhere. We're so excited about this. Because so many of you wrote in asking how you can find people to health up your dating game and this should be a great way to get personalised affordable vice. We'll be adding more coaches and more services and of course let us know. There's something specific you like to see to meet the coaches and book your session today. Visit dateable podcasts. Dot com slash coaching. Now back to the ship so all that being said i know earlier. You said like doesn't matter where you live. You can make the best of your situation. You can create the love life you want. What are your tips for people That you cannot operate out of fear and and you have to and you can also don't have to judge everybody by one bad one and mostly you gotta stop bringing your baggage to the table. You have to not be afraid to do. Communicate somebody face to face and it doesn't always have to be asking somebody out doesn't always have to be sexual Women go up to home depot and just start asking questions you know the more we get comfortable just talking to each other face to face again like that. That is the key to all of it. The more we get comfortable sharing space and time and do things around each other Without necessarily even being dating that. I think that's the first step and you can do that. All over the place you can go long tier or do networking events. Join meet up groups or anything where men and women you are having conversations in shared lives space and once we get back to that i think then we can start up and bring it back to san francisco. I don't wanna give any more fodder for women co. To complain about men so some ways that men can improve their dating.
00:35:04 - 00:40:15
Lives in san francisco Again the fact that you know the women in san francisco where the term bitch as a badge of honor. She's like you think it is compliment. So the guy's going to have to deal with that and invite women to do things with them and not be afraid to have conversations with them and don't take it to a a a sexual conquest place right away. Just got to you know. Find a way to share to for these whitman to understand that you do have a lot to offer that whether it's your conversation or your thoughts or your humor or or even your chivalry yet Allow instill deep down. You've got to peel away. One more layer in in san francisco than you do in say Detroit but Juice is worth the squeeze. Because you're gonna watch you can get in sort of inside her mind in her heart and all that kind of stuff like you do have a better woman there in san francisco than just about anywhere you know so i think what you said earlier this like line really resonates with me like women need or many to try harder and women need to make it easier. I think that is probably purcell for that is and then to take that step further. It's basically Women look for red flags in men look for green lights. And that's sort of sort of subtext of all of that. What's wrong with him going. Go bad you know what what is that is. He's probably i my my friend on speed. Dial for when. I'm on a date and the men just aren't like the men are fundamentally more optimistic where they were till ninety days ago The women are And i'm not sure you know. I that i've been guilty of that. I think it's like it's baggage lagging. Every it starts at young age with the fairy tales in the ideal prince charming and this certain kind of guy and than when a regular guy doesn't quite feel like that or like that. There's a level of expectation that even when he's doing pretty good it doesn't feel like it's getting knocked and You know there is a lot of insecurity in in pain and we all have that. The one thing that i learned from doing all these shows that i really did not understand. That's probably reflective of my own softener. Anything i had no idea how many men are afraid and how many men are in pain from some somebody who may not even paid any attention to them when they're seventeen years old literally and the meadow know how to process it and they don't know how to deal with it but that being said i think there are more. I think there's a larger pool of good man in america that has ever existed in the history of this country. I think there's more men asking questions. There's more men doing the work. There's men going to therapy. There's more men open to a lot of things being vulnerable and a lot of that than winter like. Oh there's jerks now. Well what do you think you with. Nineteen seventy four like those guys so about twenty years ago you know the women are like we wished the men would get more vulnerable more sensitive in on one hand. That's that's you know. Not exactly what you want. But the men are trying and i see that all the time like agrio. I think that's a great thing of what is going with. All this gender stuff yes but also it needs to stem from education. I feel like men are trying to relearn what it means to be a man and nobody's really teaching them so they're just looking on the internet. They're looking for all sorts of resources on youtube to find out like what does this mean to be a man. I have to say i really think. San francisco attracts men. Who do have that pain and baggage from earlier in their childhood from high school from middle school. They bring that baggage here and they become really rick loose and they don't know how to speak to women and that leads into women's frustration and then that's what creates these really tough independent women in san francisco. This is the first city. I've ever lived in where i will hold a door for a man he won't say thank you that straight does he. He's embarrassed but know not to. I'm at the generalization business. So i'll make this comment. There's a lot of Very smart maybe techy guys in in your community and a lot of them are socially awkward. A lot of them are dealing with a lot of pain in rejection from twenty years ago and just the fact that they have a good job and they have money. does not always manage to sell in a positive fashion they still lack the new social training and moore's to sort of even engage one on one and doesn't really play well well especially now women have the same jobs in the same pay so it doesn't hold much that did not the same se but over so fighting for that you don't know it's not like financially dependent anymore.
00:40:15 - 00:45:00
Does that like it's not as much let still wants to pay for your dinner yet. So so don't offer you know and and there's ways that that the women can sort of set an environment where his confidence in can flourish. I brought the the example on time. You guys go over to italy and you eat up the same behavior that would get a guy arrested here. The women are like oh my god. These guys were so overtly sexual in we loved it but the guy does it in tucson and use a pervert and called context. Yeah men are very confused by that. They're like i don't i but she liked it. They're like that guy. In so there is so the inconsistent the leads to confusion leads to nervousness and sometimes nervousness makes. It seem croupier. That really is the flip flipside. Like you've heard this quote like ethic. Ashley maybe this quote came from. Ua like but it was like anything that you do like if you like someone anything they do cute. If you don't like them anything they do as creepy so. I don't think that. I think that's something that's always been there. And it's so subjective to that person like well. That's that's what i think we have to do. Even if you're talking about just like going up to somebody at starbucks the women have to understand how hard it is now in two thousand eighteen for man to approach and so you have to adjust your body language. Accordingly and the men have to understand from the women's perspective how often the women get approached by people that are want to do so. We all have to start looking at it from each other's perspective and talking about it. I mean that's why you know people come out of these. Great love debate shows an after this podcast and whatever just having. These conversations goes so far in In bridging the disconnect absolutely. We need to open up that conversation. I actually want to ask about you brian. You're currently dating someone. Yeah how did you meet this person in l. a. Yeah in what has been your loved very private. That's why like i don't know yes. You're left life than like. Have you been married before now. Never been married. So i needed to get find somebody who didn't hold that against me although you should hold that against me and understood what i needed to go to that Scary vulnerable place. It is unnatural for men to go to you know so it just took the right combination of a me doing a lot of the work. Be listening to all of these. Great love debaters. You know. Sort of make their cases in what's wrong and then see finding the right girl all. I didn't judge that what he's in his forties. They'd never been married and what's wrong with him. Whatever and it's just like i'm okay. Let's figure this out together like that sort of the key to it. Now it's saying with the man. The man needs to set an environment where she can feel safe and goes both ways. I was ready. And i'd i'd done a lot of the work that i talked about earlier. And so i was capable of sort of finding somebody in make it work. Good for you good for you. Okay some takeaways go to some take. I have a lot to take takeaways from this conversation brian. I have to be on as before before talking to you. I was like. I feel like i'm going to get into some sort of argument with the sky. I don't know why i feel like he's really opinionated. But i'm pretty much in line with everything you're saying. Some of the takeaways are. I think empathy is a big one thinking about the situation from the other person's perspective. That's something that can help ridge disconnected between these two genders. But also this idea of like inclusiveness. I really think of nece is so important in the discussion. We can't talk about one thing without the other so we can talk about the current climate without the other gender involved so we got to be more inclusive in that nyc inclusiveness. 'cause ashley kind of goes to another point. That's different that. Brian made about just like in the midwest. The genders hanging out together a lot of stuff in other places separation so it's like find ways obviously do include in the larger issues about gender roles in society but also like how do you include people in day to day get connections that way i mean i mean i knew. A lot of people are You know you're gonna come here. We're going to argue and have differences of opinion. But i went into this five years ago with a with a.
00:45:00 - 00:50:06
You know my own personal perspective on things but mostly a clean slate. And i've heard from over seventy thousand real live people face to face. This is not great. Loved is not is not some like anonymous royalist. fifteen hundred people survey. This is the largest social experiment. That's ever been undertaken on this subject matter so we do have the data and we do have the feedback. So what i'm saying is this is the consensus of the overwhelming majority of the way men and women feel people can either deal with it or you know be the outlier and be the woman who you know. I don't care or the man. I don fine. But the eighty five percent of people in the middle. These are the answers. And you can deal with the have you like well. I think that's a good point segue to one of my takeaways. I love this topic about location. Is we here on the show. So many people blaming location and like you said there are differences in location but at the end of the day. There's these larger gender roles and then the reaction with technology that is universal. So it's like how do you find look to yourself like how do you find ways to make it work in the city that you're in is there's a reason you went to that city like i love hearing that like milwaukee's like the best city but like let's be honest. I'm probably not going to relocate to milwaukee your not then. You should look at the number two city which is charlotte. Which is where. I just was. People do relocate the charlotte every day. I am not going to do that either. But that's i think. I guess my point is they put his. How do i make it work here. And like i love this point of empathy of like next time a guy comes up to me instead of having our behalf in like not being kind of like welcoming even if it's not someone that's necessarily who i think is by type like having that empathy to them that this is one hard these days and more making it like either that it could be something that could lead somewhere having that openness but also even if it's not just realizing that if i reject them that's impacting some other woman that they're going to go up to. Yeah i mean. I tell people that you know. Never blame the city but at some point you can blame your own stagnation within the city and serious moving somewhere however there's one change that every single person can make tomorrow that will affect you immediately and not just the way you perceive yourself but everybody around you. I would say that the day of the year that the most people in this country are the most confident is halloween. High judges anybody on halloween. Everybody has gone you anything you want to be. And you're sort of liberated free of judgment to do anything you want. So i say take that playful costume confidence into every single day of your life. Meaning where saw color that you don't normally wear or an accessory don't normally wear suddenly you will send sort of a body language that is more playful than you normally would. You'll start getting attention from people you would normally then you'll move up to ordering something off a menu that you would normally order and then eventually you'll move up to dating somebody that you probably thought is not my type and everybody should get rid of the words not my type. Because you're still single. You have no type out really is why people in the bay area love festivals. They love burning. Man it's that exact flailing from halloween fraud. An eight in the streets street is at. Its most fun. Which is awesome is what it has a sense of community because of some wardrobe thing that's stimulate what's working a. t. e. park at everybody is in a giant area liberated scream and yell until personality and do things because there's a camaraderie of the costume and so i tell people eighties stop wearing black. I know it's slimming Notice it you know. The men are looking for shiny lords. So if you just even jelly at the last grey love debate you guys had julie was co hosting with you and she said ladies years a tip one. Go out when it's raining because you know nobody cares what your hair looks like. When it's raining out and then to wear bright color like she wears white all the time in new york because she stands out right away she understands that you know these of if you're an art history major you know that the the the eye is drawn to the lightest thing in the room and wants your attention on where factor but to get the day you should be dressed like a pumpkin or you should be in. In a credit to the women los angeles they will go out with a tiara. And a bolo yes to get to go to the grocery store and the man that seems fun. That seems playful. She's a lot more approachable than if she's just you know Black with headphone stand. That can make each other a lot more confident if you just make these subtle changes that everybody's capable of making.
00:50:06 - 00:55:05
Here's another subtle change. This is what i'm learning is that misery loves company so we got to avoid that crowd influence. I mean the you know that the love the great love debate. The one i went to new york. I was telling you about a bunch of women bitching and it was like they came in and said i'm looking for a good man than one next to them was like girl. I know what you mean. I'm looking for a good man. where are they. we have to avoid that kind of menu. Week.'. bringing up our new york shows used to be that way. Because i sort of liked. I wanted to take on the bitchy women but now our shows hacked completely sold out at. It is really healthy dialogue going on good. I want to say to these women. Well then bring some men from your lives into the discussion. Bring invite them. Why are you here by yourself. Because they wanted to blame this. They wanted to be validated in their misery. They wanted to hear. There's no good man in the cities. That's definitely what happens like blaming. Your city is the easy way out. Also on the flip side. Because i don't want to just say there's all these bitchy women bitching all the time. But on the flip side. I hear this in san francisco. At the time. I met guys who are like i've given up on dating. I've i've decided that it's just not for me. I don't need love in my life. And then they go back and play video games with their roommates. They're like forty years old and that's also misery loves company is the difference pitching right to the guys. The juice is worth the squeeze. You know you're gonna have to to understand that that there's only so much satisfaction you can get from an inanimate object to roll the dice that's the takeaway on that note. Let's go onto our question of the day. This is a good one okay. This question comes from brad. He says. I have a hard time going into the first kiss time. I feel like i'm getting into her personal space and in light of today's climate. I just don't know if it's appropriate behavior to just go in for the kiss. Should i ask for permission. It depends on how you ask you know we hear again. That's another thing good question because some women are like just throw against the wall and kissed me and some women will arrest us for that. I would say something like sorry. You're just can't pay attention to what you're saying. Because i so wanna kiss you right now like kitten fun yeah baby fun and bring it to her attention that this is what i wanna do without seeming like a question. I like layer. That wanna do it without asking. You wanna do it. There's a very different of that purchases. Like can i lean in forecast meek. Like what you're saying is like sexy or kids can say you would kiss you if you were me. Yeah again if you try and kiss her and she didn't wanna be kissed your now a harasser so who knows. This brings us back to someone. Posted a screenshot from what you wrote into this group. That julian i are part of this is from october. Fifteen twenty seventeen. You wrote women absolutely to be kissed on a date without prior consent. Nobody wants to ask consent for kiss. Trust me and this elicited forty seven comments from men and women. Some totally agreed with you. Some totally didn't do. Are you aware of this discussion at all. Do you recall I i see a lot of stuff that gets set around the internet. Yeah i stand by that Because i've heard for most of the women that they they would prefer the spontaneity in a moment from a guy who they want to kiss them if she does not want him to kiss him. It doesn't matter how he asks her. So basically the the caveat on that is from a guy she's interested in she's just like shut up and kiss me and that's true so Maybe people misread the context. But i totally stand by that. Yes women on this thread did say well. That's i need consent. So i need a guy to at least know on consenting to him wanting to kiss me and the men were saying you know what is consent. Then there's this episode of tv show younger. We're like this guy is like this. Like huge feminist. And they're like in bed he's like is that okay is that okay. Is that okay. And it's like she just shot up at like fucked me basically it's got well. Here's the problem with. I see dopey apps going around and consent that a lot of times. We'll once you greg consent. It's harder to take it back Or star stop it after that. So you know. Sometimes the verbal thing doesn't really work either but yeah the the overwhelming majority of women if they like the guy i want him to kiss her and if they don't like the guy they don't and because there's no way for him to know until he tries to kiss her or even asked it's sorta the same results either way.
00:55:05 - 01:00:00
He tries to kiss her. She wanna kiss them wasn't workout first. Playwright doesn't try to kiss her and she wanted to give some. That's that's the problem to is problem. I think maybe ease into in a little more a man. I don't wanna speak fully but as a woman. Maybe touch her leg like playfully if she said something. Funny and see what the reaction is there. like you could tell if someone is into that versus not so it's also like a little bit of a buildup because i think to just comes at a nowhere. It's like if you tap her leg and she moves away. maybe not assigned to go in. Your signs are level. Only dogs can hear like you prefer. Jester like we cannot like. There's no way you could be like body language. Yes or no really can't tell. I learned something on my podcast last week. I don't even heard of this. That if you sit at the bar next to me and the right leg is crossed over the left like the toes pointing me that that means you are interested if your legs across the other way. You're not yeah. I wish i would have never picked up on that like you. Gotta be kidding me. If you like me. I mean i think that's the answer is to say the way i said it before but that wasn't asking permission. That was making a statement. That i would like to do this. Yeah i agree like the cy. Even though that was just my suggestion. I totally get what you're saying. Is that every person reacts differently and is sometimes hard to tell i stirred the pot in your world just that i still think. We have to exercise empathy because Back in the day. When i was trying to be an actress and i went on this audition and one of the scenes was i had to kiss a girl and i had to lean in for the kiss and my palms are sweaty. Most nerve wracking thing in my life. Because i didn't know how it's going to take it. I didn't know if i'd be a good kisser. I didn't know how i should hold her face. All of it was like nerve wracking. So i think we should think about it from the other active. I try to make it easier for the men. If they lean in just a little bit i will lean in and meet them. It also helps if you complimented him yet once in a while. We don't ever hear that from a woman forever. We rarely hear you look. We don't we rarely hear it but the other thing you said you were an actor you try to a good actor on the if they don't get the part it just meant they weren't right for the part is not about them personally. Don't take this rejection. And i think they're mad. That's a good lesson to you. Might just caught her in a bad moment and she didn't pay attention. These guys were afraid of being rejected. Like you lost like five seconds of your time. Like who really cares. And you're going to have to get over that Guys you're going to have to not be afraid or think that it's just about you. She hated you. She might have just had a bad day. Don't bring that to the next girl even if she wasn't into. I mean the next girl won't be if you get jetted You know one hundred times and one hundred one will good should be. I mean so why like. Yeah you know. You're not going to remember that person in five years anyways or in one year. Yeah let's wrap this up. This is great fantastic conversation now. If people want to be part of the great love debate where can they go next. We're in the world. Can they next. We'll go to great love. Debate dot com. You will see our live tour schedule We have upcoming shows all over the place. Go there and you can also find the link on their to our podcast or wherever you get your podcast We have celebrities talking about this stuff. All the time and You know we're always looking for more ways to continue. The conversation beyond our live. shows are podcast. We think it's something that you know. Dialogue should be happening. Twenty four seven between the men and women so we try and do that and we are coming back to the bay area. I think let us go and you have like. Us dates like all other city yet to coming up okay. They're all they're all coming up in their on good automated. Obviously our tour schedule on. It's being updated like daily so if you don't see your city on their don't panic we'll give people want to reach you. Can they find your contact info on that website too. Yep is a big button. It says the brian a- upstate dot com no need for signals there slashing like two thousand style consent. I'm just as introverted. Anybody else like after these shows people wanna talk to me and i just want to go to waffle house better at that too so well. Here's a tip of you wanna meet. Brian just go to waffle house Over some pancakes the waffle house antastic. Well thanks so much for being a guest on our show brian. This is we've been wanting you as a guest for a while. I'm glad this finally worked out.
01:00:00 - 01:01:55
Great discussion and i agree. Let's just keep the discussion going. It doesn't have to end your only solution. Yeah thanks guys. Thanks brian we're going to wrap this up. By saying say anal your action item for this week is to reframe the way you view your city next time you bitch about how terrible dating is in your city. Do two things one. It's reframing think about all the great things that are great about your city and dating and the second thing to do is call up a friend who's single and dating in a different city and ask them what's wrong with their city. I guarantee you own making feel a lot better. This episode is brought to you by higher club. Where friends help friends find jobs. You guys we all know how challenging it is to find a new job by higher club. Mix the easy. You can post a job or refer a friend for one. You can also get career. Coaching with professional career counselors to improve your resume. Increase your salary. We're practice interviewing more. Join today at higher club dot com if you didn't know already. We have a revamped website with articles videos and content all about modern dating. You can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We've had some great feedback. About how actionable these episodes are so. Check them out on our website or itunes music also visit the site today to see the latest about coaching for connect you with dateable approved experts to help with everything from dating profile reviews coaching and even gathering real feedback about your dating style in personalized and affordable way to connect with us visit dateable. Podcasts dot com. You can also find us on facebook twitter and instagram. All under dateable podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe an auto download the podcast on itunes. Or your favorite podcast player. So you never miss an episode.