Ariel, founder of Gender Illumination, shares what it’s like to date as someone trans, gender queer, and gender non-conforming. We discuss her own personal journey, all the terms and pronouns, challenges in dating in the trans community, and how to be open and educated.
S6E9 Gender Blender
00:00:00 - 00:05:01
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
This episode is brought to you by making ways making ways as a podcast that shares the unexpected paths to creative careers. Just like we hear stories about people's journey to finding love making ways shares people's journey to finding a career. They love you can find the podcast on itunes soundcloud spotify and all major podcast ads or visit making ways dot co to learn more. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating. Today we have a special guest named ariel with us. I'm going to give a quick bio. But i know there's more we need to talk about so this is just the opening of who ariel is all about so areas a sex and relationship coach and educator and ordained hebrew protests and a founding member of the sexual liberation collective in two thousand and nine aerial founded gender blender. That's a great name by the way a safe community space for all genders always and in two thousand sixteen founded gender illumination which focuses on education and policy reform as methods of safe-space creation for trans and gender non-conforming. People yes yes. We're not working. You can find him on the dance floor. Aerial aerial grew up in new york and now lives in berkeley california. so before we get to you area. Because i was about full we also have a special co host with us. We had aaron's from season four episode for in an episode called levels of dr. And when we think about dr. It's usually in the context of monogamous relationships. But aaron open our eyes up to define the relationship in open relationships. What does that mean right so like how when we talk about our relationship being open. How open is it. What are the rules. And what are the boundaries. So if you haven't heard that episode yet go back to season four episode for for that to say yes great to be back so areas all about you today. Tall is about this. Great coles who read about you your referred to as him her in a day yes tell us with. That's all about so identifies gender queer eye with intention news all of the different pronouns. So that involves he. She they z. Her and the products that you can think of or be creative with a quick so all the data one hundred terms you can say okay. So gender illumination is my organization and we wrote an extensive list which is actually twelve pages long. Oh great we of course also made a one pager. Because i recognized that some people are not willing in today's age to spend. I'm writing a full twelfth. Aegis but i actually think it is. Is that expansive in terms of definitions so to the main definitions that i think everyone should know when six gender is people who are sick gender identify with the gender that they were at birth. How do you spell it. Cysts cis cis okay and trans is your s transgender. And that basically means that you do not identify with the gender that you are assigned and so gender is your identity and sex is your biology when people say you know you're born and people identify you in they're like this is a male baby. This is a female baby with. They're actually saying what you're sexes looking. They're actually going based on what your genitalia look like or what. They think your chromosomes are. But that's not actually your gender right. You could be somebody that has a china that does not identify as a woman. It's sort of correlative like these. Two things are very different. Things we hear gender queer gender non conforming and nonbinary. What are the differences. Yes uh-huh okay. So there is so much first of all. It's really interesting because there's umbrella terms rates like the word. Queer is an umbrella term. And under that you would have gay bisexual lesbian. So trans is an umbrella term for gender identity and under that umbrella. You actually would have everything you just said. So non binary gender fluid gender queer all actually fits under that umbrella k. I think there's benefits to having an umbrella term in the sense that people can organiz together. Politically people can fight for their rights. People can collaborate and work together. I also think there are some drawbacks having an umbrella term because actually everyone has different meats.
00:05:02 - 00:10:02
So somebody that identifies as a trans woman might have very different different. Needs from somebody who identifies as non binary. Who's sort there. Certain things in common right like we all need safety. We all need the ability to maintain our jobs. We all need to discrimination. We all need to have access to bathrooms. All of that is true. But then i think there's very different needs because some people are really in need of specific healthcare needs around surgery and hormones and some people are not and i think. If we're all lumped in one category sometimes are needs can be missed and also i think politically. Some of the struggle is different than i appreciate. Being a unit and being able to struggle together. And i think it's important to acknowledge the differences that exist so when you say. Non binary the concept of non binary rate now the way gender is structured in the us is it's been structured as a binary system so people think of it as you're either a man or your woman and i'm saying in the us at structured this way because one it has not always been structured this way especially if you go back to before white. People came and colonized. This land. gender looked very different. I say this because my own background and culture jewish and in the tall mid there's actually six genders so i think it's very specific to say gender has not actually always been a binary gender queers also unim- parrella term. I particularly like the word queer because to me. Clearness the word. Actually if you look in the dictionary it means other right. And i actually really liked that word. I know that if you go back if you talked to my parents. They feel very conflicted about that word. Because in their generation it was a slur and in their generation. It was used against people in a very harmful way. I'm just trying to think about that the other day. 'cause i remember growing up. He would never call anybody. Queer not the word reclaimed. It's now you know. And for my personal journey. Enjoy being cleveland with gender. I like i like being expressive. I like shifting my gender. I feel very gender. Fluid appreciate the word gender queer for me. It's about my self expression it's also about my internal identity. I see myself as having multiple layers to my identity. I see myself as a game in this as a woman. I see myself as everything in between all that very very queer in my identity and in my self expression and i think it's important to say that there's lots of people that don't feel that way right. There's lots of people under the chance umbrella that it is very important that they have just one pronoun and it is very important to get that one pronoun correct and for me. It's very important to us multiple pronouns and to be playful with that until and explore with me so basically. You're never offended. i am never been bit frame. I think it would be offended if somebody was mocking me or making fun of me or specifically china. Tear down my community then. Of course it'd be offended. Or someone was saying something hateful harmful or oppressive or sexist homophobic or transphobic or racist. Obviously than i'd be offended but if people are just using a pronoun in the context of seeing me understanding me that's my whole point is to be expressive to have multiple personnel men and women people of all genders. Yes i trans people. Gender people now binary people people identify man people identify as women I'm super queer in my identity. The kind of sex has really clear on lots of levels I play with gay men. Women run the whole gamut of. What's possible do you like to play parties together like you see you see me an actor wonderful. Yeah do you have a preference because they always say sexual preference right. You have one that you really prefer my preference is that i love all people all bodies in that a genuinely by humans really attractive and something that i think is amazing about my life The you've really seem is that i get to show up in spaces at beam identity and people siemian that identity. And i've made the choice. That i don't for a lot of people hormones and sexual reassignment surgery or gender. Confirmation surgery is really important for them. And i fully support people in those journeys and for me. That's not the path that i'm choosing to take a really believe that i can live my gender identity without doing those things and sometimes that means that an average day people might not see me Amazing is have gay male community that does see me as a game. In when i'm at you know we've been played together. We've been out events together hosted by comfort enjoy glimpse cox which are also burning man theme camps that gender blender the theme camp that i run up burning man is super connected to and in those spaces i feel like people really do see me and they really accept me and i didn't have you know they understand who i am. And they welcomed me into those spaces and that's been an amazing journey and just to be clear you're assigned female at birth gets. Okay have you guys hooked up. We'll say the for another. I think at the end of this.
00:10:04 - 00:15:09
What changes with different people mij- Experience yearling with a gay man right like how does that differ than being with like a straight man or another woman. My gender is is so fluid that my gender is shifting in the experiences. A ha so when you're with a gay man gay man. And if i'm way see male who is a lesbian than i'm a female because my gender does shift that much and my expression shifts. That's not that much. In the way i play the way i move actually. Is that expensive. So i wanna bring this back to you. You're thirty seven years old. You're from new york you've been living here on and off since two thousand and four so that's a longtime you've seen all the changes cisco rent has dramatically increased. Many you about your childhood. Get how attitude so exciting these issues so important to you so also if you met me in two thousand four my own understanding of my identity was very different and so i also teach teacher right. Now i'm working with fourth graders. Astros working with ninth graders and something that i see. That's amazing in my young students is that they have so much more opportunity than i had the very first day of class. I had this in my head. Anyway that we were gonna go around and say our names and sarah pronouns and before i even got to light get everybody's like settled into their seats. Somebody came up to me. One of the students came up to me and said i really hope redoing gender pronouns. Of course we are. I was in ninth grade. Nobody asking my pronoun. I didn't know that was a thing that you could have the right to express. I thought it was assigned. So when i was younger i nobody was out in high school. There was nobody out as queer. There was nobody out gay. There was no one else lesbian. There was definitely out is treat as i did not know the word queer. I did not know the word gender queer. It's very hard to exist in an identity. If you don't see anybody else that looks like you. It's very hard to exist an identity. If there's no conversation about it or communication about it. So i was having lots of internal thoughts but there is no place for those thoughts. Were these internal thoughts. I never thought of myself as just a girl always had some understanding that there was multiple layers to gender but there was not there was not an expression of that. I never saw anybody else doing that. Got you like so with. All of events were was it multiple. Things have been one. I think when you live and identity and you have these experiences you wanna see social change happen because you recognize like i recognize within my own life certain disadvantages and i see certain pain in my community is in. I wanna make a difference for us and also my religion being jewish really influenced me from a very early age to believe in social justice. The whole framework of my religion is really this. This concept called coon alum which is basically healing the world and pursuing justice so from a very early age. I was given a narrative that it's not enough to just see something bad. You have to actually understand the root of where that thing is coming from and work for change and so for me. It was a very natural development to start gender blenders and then to start gender and to really make this my life were compassion for you. When did you do. You have coming out period. I mean i feel like coming out is on multiple layers. Not still coming out. I like the concept of like celebration so into multiple coming out parties and events and actually think you are constantly coming out in the sense that first of all the lake liberalising before the words have changed a lot. So if you were to meet me know when you're saying my first round of living in the bay was two thousand and four. If you met me then i didn't know the word gender queer. So how could i be out as something. I didn't know. I was married so there is multiple layers even to my in my own identity and my own self expression that has shifted and changed and in terms of coming out. There's layers to it right. There's one that come out to my mom. And dad wanted to come out to my sister when i come out to all my friends. What about people. That didn't seem you for like ten years and then found me on facebook. Live coming out even me right. What are you coming out with information. Are you giving them. I think for me. It was important to tell people that i grew up with about my identity because we didn't see it because i was actually really curious to find out like who else said secret identities in high school that we didn't know about or get to talk about because we weren't given the language to you of coming out especially when it comes to gender identity is really interesting because it has to do with presentation as well and for for many trans people. I suspect that You may know that they're trans or you may not have any idea that you're trans. And so that coming out process could be all the more fraught with difficulty depending on where you are on the journey and also what your safety is right like.
00:15:09 - 00:20:05
We have very less to be honest here in the bay is my god france. Social experience here. There's a lot more safety. I know this because i teach workshops all across the country and when i do workshops in places in the middle of the country is a very different. I've done. texas have done workshops in ohio. I've done some workshops in new york atlanta and each place a very different understanding a lot of times. I'll start a workshop and save. Raise your hand if you're familiar with the word transgender. And that's you know when you're in the bay area. Everyone has a hand up when you're in texas. Two people have their a. And i think that people have detained against the duration. What does it mean for you if you're doing even if you're just being if you're just being gender non conforming and say you still identify with the gender. You were assigned at birth. But you don't conform to traditional gender roles or the stereotype of what your gender like. There's a lack of safety for you. Retirement where heels. I'm acutely aware of it. Not just because of the pain but because of the way in presenting but you looking so good photo gets gelang. That's me how to walk. And also what is it the danger that you face in san francisco is still. I believe less than is still real danger here. We've had friends that have been assaulted. But i trust that good for the mind was it still happens in places like san francisco and about the one that was murdered whom i met at burning man last year terrifying to be that the bay area facing i. I've actually had to queer friends. Murdered in san francisco since i've been here and countless more beat up so it's it's still and i you know i've experienced my nothing quite that bad. Thank god but other things as well. You know that it's not as we lo- late to think it's quite safe and it. It is a lot safer. Yeah lots of other places but you know there's still always at risk i want to bring it back to your dating life again. 'cause i'm mostly interested in that in your dating life to find people that you're hang out with hooking up with do you meet them mostly in real life or are you on apps. No i'm a real life. I probably one of the few. I'm not on any apps. I'm not i've never met someone on the internet. Never done that. I might be like a denominator. You've never been on app ever ever game. At into your own writers album i hear i am extremely extroverted so i a ton of people in real life and so i i just never. I'm not. I think for a lot people that make a lot of sense. I think i could see how it super helpful i think for me. I'm meet people all the time every day. So if you need someone in real life and they see you and they see woman sister under woman not any. Do you have a conversation with them. Media. or how do you broach that subject. How you educate them. I think what's interesting is a lot of people lately have really been seeing my gender identity. I don't think that that's always true. So i think maybe it's about getting wilder and being more comfortable in who. I am more comfortable in my self expression that helps people see me more or maybe people know me more in communities just becomes obvious who i am and also i'm very direct really believe that great sex is all about greek communication and when i meet people i'm pretty upfront about who am what i'm interested in what my identity is and i'm very clear boundaries. On very clear on what. I want very clear on how i express myself I tell people right away. Oftentimes what my pronouns are. So if you thought that assistant and now i'm telling you actually use multiple pronouns even if that's new you automatically are like. Oh i need to shift my understanding of this person. That i'm talking to when i see you. I see glitter sexual. You are literally for the benefit of our litter all over your added that to the list. Aerial hundred percent owning glitter sexual. That is my new favorite term. Those the love them. So did you get sexual dot com. Dr person getting now. So what are some the over arching issues that trans people face when it comes to dating. Oh i think there's multiple issues one actually when you talk about apps. I have a lot of friends who identifies That do use apps that find them to be really problematic in terms of how people treat you in disrespect you almost continental same.
00:20:05 - 00:25:01
Same all around. yeah. I think there's all that but then i also think there's another aspect to it. Which is that people will miss gender people in ads or people will make inappropriate comments about people's body types or people will ask really inappropriate questions that you that you shouldn't be asking why actually you should ask somebody if they've had a surgery or what their look like super on the internet will dislike. We'll say anything's i would you. But this happens in real life too. Yeah i mean. I've seen this before where people are like. They'll ask you know. Even you know whatever the last what kinds of rather they ask than to assume in their mind. I don't think people need to. I think this this is really where it's at ease you. You should ask someone what their pronouns are and you can ask someone what their gender identity is but upon meeting you it is really like i just walked into your house. I wouldn't. it's very weird. If i'm like. Oh by the way. Do you have a magician. I'm just conscious need to know right. You'd be like that is really invasive. I'm not really sure why you went there like it's being of it. We have been socialized not to do that. So then if you pick one population of people insist that the answer that question that's really harmful and dangerous trying to say like i get. It happens every online. I feel like people say things that they wouldn't normally even easier. Do they feel i can. I can imagine a lot of abuse maybe for the better for the listeners. Who are not part of this community. What are some questions that you should ask questions. You shouldn't ask if you find yourself in the presence of someone who you're not sure of their genzer. I got it now. How to phrase cloudy questions. So i would phrase the questions but asking i i to say. Hey this my name is earl. These are my pronouns. Like i use all the pronouns. I'm really curious you know what pronouns do you like. I'm also curious. How do you like to call your body parts. Or what if you know if you're in a dating experience ruin experience where you know you're going to have sex. The context right. Like i obviously asking these questions. Does it make sense if you're just meeting someone other than your gender. I'm talking about if you're having ingratiation because you know you're going to have sex. Then the conversation can look like the way. I reference my body and my body parts or this way the the way like to be touched this. My boundaries are this. I am a hard no to certain things. And i'm gonna tell you what those are and i'm a big yes to these other things. I'm gonna tell you what those are and you ask the person the same questions you're asking. What are your boundaries. What are you a big no to. How do you referenced. Your body parts. What part of your body allowed to touch. What part of your body and my not allowed to touch How do you want me to call your body. What words you use for your body and that's what you then use right and that's how you engage and getting consent. Every step of the way right. I also think it's really important to note that Trans women Some trans women liked to have their penis played with and some absolutely do not so. That's part of why that's an important question to ask one question to ask whether you're trans or gender bodies. Yeah there's a lot that happen and there's a lot of swimming that oh because we have side were having sex is gonna look or be a certain way and i actually think sex's view e expansive and the unfortunate part about the way society and culture has trained us to believe personal. Most of us are taught sex education in a terrible way right. We're taught as if everybody's heterosexual were taught that sexist penis vagina. That's just not true. That's actually not what sex is at all right so sex any experience in which people are consenting to having a physical experience that leads the pleasure and potentially orgasms and not. even the point is that you're trying to create pleasure with each other that you are consented and you're engaging in a physical experience but it's not any it's as hell somebody like what is the definition of sex. It's like you need to decide that with the person that you're playing with with the person that might be your partner or lover. And so i actually really want people to express more and say more about their needs and say more about their boundaries. And i think we live in a society where it's very hard for people to understand consent for some reason even though it's like the most basic concept rates all the news articles about consent. So that's actually a good segue into this episode. We have season three episode sixteen and episode called full disclosure in our guest. David came on the show to tell us a story. He's a straight male or he identifies as a straight male. He met this beautiful woman at a club and they were dancing and they seem like she was really into him so they start dating and he would like cook for her and bring her out on these great days. He was so into her but a month into the relationship.
00:25:01 - 00:30:01
She would always say no to sing over. We're having him go over to her place. And whenever they became more intimate she would say makeup. Excuse like i have to meet up with friends. So at the end of one month mark you could say They were starting to get intimate at his place in cooked for her. The whole shebang you know. And they're progressing little farther than usual and as he's trying to undress her she said there is something i need to tell you and it turns out that she had a penis so he didn't know how to handle the situation. The whole episode was actually really eye opening for us kind of like because he didn't really push her away he didn't he was trying to remain civilized but also the same time he's like. Why have you been hiding this from me. And she said you know every time. I've brought this up. I've gotten some sort of negative response. And i really like you and i wanted to keep us going for a while. They didn't end up working out but he even tried. Every scenario head of how this relationship could work out so you were speaking about earlier asking about your pronoun. How should i. How should i call your body parts. I think that's really great in a in context of something that you know. It's a safe place right. Gender blender community where you know. It's okay to ask these questions. But what about this scenario like what david was in. It's time to take a quick break so we can tell you about the latest service we have been building over dateable. Dateable is teaming up with higher club to provide headshots for your dating profiles. You'll get a fully professional experience with makeup. Styling lighting and more visit dateable. Podcast dot com forward slash coaching for more details. But what about this scenario like what. David was in back on the a couple of things you said someone is that she probably could actually identifies street woman. I don't know her sexuality Through so that right so she is a straight woman the part that he the ways framing it is that he thought he was dating assists woman. He's dating a transom. That's different than i thought. I was dating a straight woman. He is dating a straight woman and she's a woman and disclosure is really complicated process right because you have to be thinking about your own safety but your physical emotional safety so when people's especially if you're meeting somebody you know when you were saying about apd eating. I think when you're meeting someone on an app like say meet someone through friends. There's at least some vetting right like you. If i'm your friend and you introduce me to somebody. There's a little bit more safety there because somehow person's been vetted yet at at a club so there was no right. Yeah so there's a lot less so her safety could have been in real jeopardy. How does she know. i mean. think about especially transplant of color. The most jeopardy in our society there literally being killed literally being named and so why should they disclose to him. Mike how does she know that she is going to be safe. How does she know that he's not gonna turn on her killer. Because that's actually happened in our society raise had friends over and i think that what makes her think that she's gonna be safe. Especially if you're saying you know it sounds like one month is actually not a lot of time to get to know somebody and if you're going on deeds in you're not And you actually have. I don't know how much time they had actually spent together. It sounds like great. You've been cooking food and spending some time together. But how do i know that you're safe to disclose my you know. How do i know. I don't know so. I actually really see her perspective. She sang. i finally felt safe a month into tell you this information. Actually his response to be. Wow thank you so much for feeling safe with me curious. Like how can i engage body when you want when you like do you like your the do call it a penis do you call it a. Do you want me to touch to you. Not want me to touch it. I think people need to get past this concept that your body is your gender like people and especially what i've seen from six straight men is. There's a lot of like freaking out about their own sexuality. Their own gender martin is about power on privilege and part of that is the way our society has structured male identity. And i actually think for himself. He should have just been like. Wow thank you so much for sharing this with me. How can i support you. I think part of it though is when it happens is like ineffectual. Time like is there a better time to have that conversation as you're having sex revealing this. I think that was part of a time it. I think it's not. It's easier to like. Save stuff retrospect Through but of you're in the moment it's not like you're expecting like stumps. Your brain doesn't register that fast. And i think this is the reality for anyone whose body this not. The what society is saying is mainstream so that could be that for whatever reason your body doesn't look like a mainstream body what you're seeing as the stereotypical body. If your body doesn't look like that guess what something might come up during sex.
00:30:01 - 00:35:00
It's not just about being transferred. I actually think it's really a huge struggle. It's about wendy share certain things about your body. It's it's like this is true for sis entrance people because the reality is actually almost everyone has something. That's true for them that they're probably afraid to share. Because they're worried about jackson. They're worried about physical emotional mental harm. So i don't know if you guys have any. I don't know what the right time is. I guess i don't like i. I i mean i in an ideal world. He would respond with. Oh what a nice surprise. I don't know how can i please you right. How can i support you. But we're not there yet. I mean we're just absolutely not there yet. So what what are some steps. People can do because she said to him like. That's probably one of the nicest responses as she's gotten a definitely gotten beaten up and you know here's violent behavior but like julia. It's easy to say. I can say these words. How can i best support you. But when you're in the moment you're in shock. What's a better way to deal with that situation. I think it involves right. I think is also assessing about the word disclosure rate and. I'm thinking about queer community and how that word also has been used both for trans people in terms of disclosing their transit entity but also Especially in the eighties. When you talk about there is that word was also used right like people take. Are you disclosing your status or not. And today i think there's a whole conversation around sexually transmitted infections. A lot of people don't have that conversation a lot of people will just imagine that. Oh maybe this person's on prep were. Oh i'm just gonna trustee even though. I just met you on this app or just met you at the club. Ryan not have a conversation to me. Actually think it's really important for people to say okay so my last sti check up. Was this long ago. You know these are results but the problem is we have so much. Shame in your body negatively and there's so much shame around you know all of what i'm saying right. There's a lot of shame around things being different. A lot of shame around Sei's and i think we need a new thought freeman and we need more education than we need the education to start when you have actual sex ed in high schools in egypt all the way back to them to say. Hey guess what there are. People who do not look like the magazines and there are people who identify different from what you might have already been told right like let's go over what cisse's let's go transit transition. Let's talk about safer sex and let's talk about the fact that no one should feel guilt or shame. People's bodies are beautiful. And how do we. How do we shift in mentality. i think it's about education. And i also think that education can happen as adults. Also part of a platform called and that platform has sex educators and we do. It's it's a tough where you can actually come in here. S teach educate and. It's for adults so that they can also learn right because a lot of times it's like we didn't get this education at high school. Most of us my segregation was terrible. In high school was awful. Outdated video voice still run them now. Like i would be surprised. I do also think it has to start with. Children starts new start ordinary. it's socialization right. I mean they did this whole like sociological study. Where they put a baby in the middle of a room and they told people around it and they assigned different genders to this. Maybe two different people half the people thought it was a girl have people thought was a boy and they scare the baby and the baby crying and they asked the participants. Why did the baby cry and everybody who thought the baby was female said. The baby cry because of scared and everybody who thought it was. A boy baby said while he was crying because he's angry and so then the next question was what would you do with this baby. And this is your own baby. And the people who thought it was a female babysit. I going comfort her because she's scared. And the people who thought it was a boy baby said i would let him cry because he's just needs to get his anger out there now. Imagine this is a real real life situations. Someone's getting mugged and they're screaming right if we put that person is perceived to be a female. We go and rescue her. If they're perceived to be a male some people may just let him be say oh he can defend himself. he's angry so i think we are thinking about socialization of our kids from the very beginning. You're socializing end each other and each. I mean i mean. I think so many times. We have opportunities within within our groups when we say things that are misogynistic about not just about women but also how it affects men. When were we don't allow men to have emotions when we when we don't allow men to act in a quote unquote feminine way All of that stems from the same sort of thing that you're talking about the way in which were raised In how we're socialized. I think those conversations we can be having with each other not just with children should be educating children as well but so often i'm i'm when i'm around straight men which admittedly is not super often.
00:35:01 - 00:40:02
I'm sort of amazed at the things that come out of their mouths and fact they don't really correct each other even though independently they would say. Oh you know. I would never say that. Or i don't really misogynist feminist or all this kind of stuff the things they say each other can be very destructive in perpetuates these ideas of gender norms. That i think can be very and harmful and this may be stereotype. Why is it. Because julian. I've seen this. We're not the right group to answer this. But why is it when straight men get together in a group may get drunk. They start acting gay. Like you've you've seen. Oh they've lost each other like seeing the light you like lifting up. Their shirtless are grinding up by each other. I definitely want to meet your friends. Nominee yeah and then they take pictures like posing together. We went on a party bus with these straight men who wanted to meet women and by the end they were like grinding up on each other on a pole dancing ignoring all the women. Nari all the women on the. I have no explanation that i do. You think i took. There is a way that with what you were talking about in terms of people not actually calling out or checking in. I think there were at this really tense. Time in society where it's been shown that our president who is not actually president but our president is able to really sexist terrible yards and everybody somehow is like. Oh that's just normalized. Now like that's okay. So of course it trickles down to guest with all the time. Yeah so trivial and it trickles down to people in society. It's like if you hear someone say something misogynistic people are like. I don't need to check that because now that's just been declared as the social norm and a lot of the work. That gender illumination is doing its illumination shining light on gender so the work that we're doing is really trying to address these issues china issues on a policy level on an education level. Making sure that we are in all factors of life so schools colleges universities Healthcare providers businesses please faith having these kinds of conversations and you can check out the work at gender elimination dot com to see more about up to in doing but it really. It is our way of addressing. This of how do you. How do you shift culture Really do believe it's education. So what are some of our tako is well. I think my biggest takeaway is your quote aerial. You said gender is bigger them. We were told in one of the articles we read about you. And that's exactly what it is. We don't have to be in the confines of what we think. Gender should be and i love what you said about. The human body doesn't have to be this one body with all these parts that makes up this gender than this other gender will also different. So why don't we just see with a more open. Mind is just the body. Is the body if the body has these parts. That's what this person's body is all about. So i really love what you said about that. I think what we can take away from for a lot of our listeners. Because this is probably going to be eye-opening for a lot of people who don't have these open. Conversations is to open up that conversation. I feel like sometimes it's hard for me to even open up that conversation because people are like while that doesn't apply to me. I don't wanna talk about it but it is education. why are we having all these sexual harassment cases. Come up is because we haven't had the education around it. We haven't put any vocabulary to these. Were to behaviors. People felt uncomfortable but they didn't know how to label it so the more we can openly talk about these issues legal these issues and our feelings. I think the more comfortable people will be talking about it. Yeah i think for me you brought up in. it's not just with even revealing. std's or anything difficult. we do wanna like away from it. But it's so important to have those conversations and click the part will we reflecting back on the episode with david like. I think just being aware of it ahead of time so like if something like that. Does kit catch you. By surprise you can have more empathy for other people about other ways to address. Sorry it's education like you said. Imagine if you grew up in a school where you were told that some boys penises and some don't and china's and somerville and some girls have china. Some girls have penises in this way. You already know that so nothing would be shot by. I need to disclose that. This is whatever because it would be like. Oh from the time. I was a child until now always understood. That men can have for jonah organise.
00:40:04 - 00:45:03
It doesn't that's not what defines us as a gender in. It's totally what you said it goes back to fusing sex and gender. I think that was actually a good takeaway to it. Seems so obvious but like we do forget it. Like i like even interchange the two and it's hard sometimes but lake understanding all these terms. What they all mean is really important. So what about you guys do any takeaways from this. We have. Yes so. I might take away. Zoe's more questions when whenever it comes subject because one of things i wanted to know is first of all. I think you actually opened my eyes this past summer to a lot of a lot of the conversations. We're having tonight found myself Very attracted to some trans men. And i am curious how is for any listeners who may be interested or think that transit sexy and wanna meet trans people. Who don't know even where to go or how to go about doing that. Are there any resources there are there. Apps are there. What are the where. Can you meet these wonderful. Trans people are gender. Non conforming asking for a friend's right asking for me now that you should put your number in this long facebook. Yeah no. I think i i i feel like there's there's in what you said where you just had his kind of really intriguing to me an interesting because i think there is like there's always a fear around the concept of like the word tranny chaser. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Where each chaser. Yeah so first of all there's Unleashed a whole. We're all saying the word trendy and some people are very very confronted by that word. That word has been very harmful to people and there's other people keyboard seen who is trans embraces. That word loves that word. So i think it's important to say that there is a lot of tension around that word and for a lot of people that were is really harmful really painful and but the concept of of chaser like you're like an exotic vacation of right so it's like i'm actually just interested in you because of this kind of like exemplifying you the same way. That people of color have been exotified. Same way that people's like a fetish like a yellow fever thing. yeah. I totally get it. So that that's an interesting concept versus. Like i and genuinely to all beings or or you know like to me. It's like interesting. It's like actually if you're attracted to men that makes sense that you're to transmit because they're not like it's like it's intriguing that it's like a revolution because it's actually of course. He retracted the. Because you're attaching to ben. So i think it's different if you're like. Wow i noticed that attracted to nonbinary people or gender queer people because that does expand your sexuality a bit right because people like in my category. Do think the doubt if you were like really attracted area. I think there'd be like an expansion of your sexuality because identify yes as both gay but also as non binary 'em and so. There's an element to it. But i'm always intrigued. Came in are like. I'm still trying to trans man. I'm like i'm not surprised that you feel like that's just another guy. Of course you're acted him go why going to be. I think i think part of it i in. It's hard because in the gay community. There is such a fixation on the penis. The penis being a source of your sexual energy and power and so lacking that. It's a little bit of mental gymnastics to Recognize the here's this really hot sexy man in front of you and oas of china And you know obviously it doesn't mean anything other than you just have to get your mind around the fact that this person that you're you have a penis and that's a very strange thing for you if you're a gay man you're not used to seeing china and attached to an attractive man that you wanna fuck. Yeah and that's really that's really the only revolution right. Yeah i think what i think. It would be. Great people to get to go to more workshops on sexuality or sex in general because the other thing that is interesting right is if they are only use of one body part. You bite literally be like. I actually think you're really hot. And sexy and i might feel like i don't know what i'm doing right and so i think there's a lot of empowerment to go to workshop or your him go to workshop about pleasing trans men or i'm gonna go to a workshop on pleasing trans women are gonna go to a workshop that is around exploring squirting or i'm going to go to a workshop around you know vaginal fisting 'cause that might be something. My partner wants or just downright weird why you know it is interesting because it's like a lot of these workshops happened in the in the bay area but what's nice is like the platform schools kind of amazing in the sense that it's a lot from that you can do your own house.
00:45:03 - 00:50:01
If you're afraid to go to work you can actually just like get online and had that experience. There's a lot of amazing sex. Educators sexual liberation collective are doing this kind of work in these kinds of workshops throughout the country. so i do these kinds of workshops. Friends do these kinds of workshops so also gender blenders is a place to to sex education. We also do safer sex play parties. So that's a great place to come and meet people in our community in get more of this kind of experience in education by having been really educational for all of us. And here's a statistic. I haven't checked. I haven't fact check this. But i've heard this multiple times right kellyanne. That's one in fifteen hundred. Babies are born with both parts. And it's most of the time up to the doctor to choose which part to keep so. It's not even the same family. There's you should all look at this amazing video called intersex or you know google on youtube what it's like to be intersex and an intersex person is a term that's used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't seem to fit the typical definition of male or female so it's not actually born with both parts having a lot of people have this image of like you both regina unannounced but. It's not exactly like that. There is a major issue right now of Nonconsensual surgeries that happened at birth and also people not telling the the young person that they are intersex and the word before this was hermaphrodite. Yeah but that's not anymore. Got an intersex okay. Good to know what we're learning so much. But here's something from A lot of our listeners. Who wrote in because we talked about this wind to do this episode. And we've actually have a lot of people. Say i feel like i'm walking on eggshells these days i feel like i'm offending someone. No matter what i say. What are some ways that people can get over that fear of like i feel like i'm just being offensive. Whatever i say and then why do you singer saying that. I think people have a lot of fear. I might think that there's ways that you can instead of calling someone out you can loving the call them in but part of that involves trust rate. So if you're in my community. And i trust you and i know you and you say something. That's transphobic homophobic or resources again. Sit down with you and talk to you about that and explain it to you and it's not like i'm calling you out or pushing out. I'm actually calling you in and bringing you closer. I think it's a lot harder if you hear somebody on the street or if you're sitting in a restaurant and the table next to you is saying roj missed a comment. It's a little bit hard to call them in. Because you're not actually in your community so actually do think in. In those circumstances you are literally calling that person out. And you're saying what you're doing not okay and you're creating a society in a culture that says those comments are not okay and the reason those comments are not okay is because while that is verbal assault it can lead to physical assault right so when people say what about what's happening with all the sexual harassment that's going on that sexual harassment leads to a culture that allows for rape to happen. It leads to a culture where rapist go without any punishment. Where it's like no rapists are like getting one month of jail time our community service and we see that in the news time and time again so we have a culture that allows for all these things so i actually think it is really important. When we hear comments misogynistic comments. Sexist comments transphobic comments homophobic comments racist comments that we do actually say something that we don't sit quietly by. I mean what would have happened when when we think about the incident of trump on the bus what would have happened if he had gone called out right there. What would have happened if that's not okay. We don't talk like that right. I also think it's important to mention intent here so if people are walking on egg show if people feel like they're walking on eggshells at least you're on me. You know. I would rather someone to see you know. This is a silly question but like maybe you know. I don't really know how to address you. I don't really know what is like. You know i'm not familiar with this world 'cause i feel like if if people if people feel like they're walking on eggshells immesnse that one they want to be respectful and to maybe they're willing to learn and all they have to do is just like put it out there and just be like look i. This isn't my world. I'm not familiar with this. Sit down with me or just like how. Should i address you or you know what is being gay light or something. You know some kind of something like that. I wouldn't be offended. Because i think the the intention is huge. Yeah are friends of mine. Who called me a faggot and it's completely playful and then it there's someone on the street who says it to you and it's the same word. Obviously but the intent is to use it as a weapon weaponising words if your intent is not to weaponize something even if you're even if you're only familiarity with the trans community is using the word tranny which is so loaded in house all these problems with it if you are using it and you say to someone and you are.
00:50:01 - 00:53:39
It's not meant to be hurtful in its accidental. And you can use it as a you can somehow as your way in us as a conversation starter so that you can learn from that. I think that would be much you. It will be received much better than you did than you would expect that. It's a great way to wrap up. This episode of people want to be more educated. Where can they find what. How can they reach you directly great. So some great ways to reach me or my website. Gender illumination i l. l. u. m. i. Nato engender dot com. You could also reach me at gender blenders dot org or the sexual liberation collective dot com sabs and erin. Where can people reach you. Find me on instagram. Finally in all my heels followed me wherever you want awesome awesome. Thanks again guys. This is great. i definitely really great episode breach. Learn more so so much for having me. This was so awesome and wonderful to talk with you all and listeners home. You heard you heard it here. You can contact aerial warrior indirectly. Well maybe not erin you docking in him you can send me an scrim. Anyone has further questions. They can send them to us yet. Pass them on. Stay your action. Item for this week is to practice. Mindfulness and my way to do that is to unlearn. What you've always known as a norm in psychology often talk about changing your perspective through changing your vocabulary so start with calling banana and apple. It'll help you stop you in your tracks and questioned. Why you've always called it banana. This episode is brought to you by making ways making as podcast that shares. The unexpected paths to creative careers just like we hear stories about people's journey to finding love making ways shares people's during to finding a career. They love you can find podcast on itunes soundcloud spotify in all major podcast ads or visit making ways dot co to learn more all. Week gra having an instagram contest. Follow us on instagram. At dateable podcasts. And for each friend you tagging the post it will count as an entry into the contest and the prize two tickets for you and a friend to see buck. Tinder a love story which will be at piano. Fight in san francisco on wednesday march fourteen. We saw the show back in february and highly recommend it so looking forward to giving you and a friend some tickets so you can experience it for yourselves and of course you can just go buy tickets at f- dash tinder dot com for this show or any of the upcoming shows as well. You didn't know already. We have a revamped website with articles videos and content all about modern dating. You can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating none drums. We've had some great feedback. About how actionable these episodes are so. Check them out on our website or itunes music also visit the site today to see the latest about coaching for we connect you with dateable approved experts to help with everything from dating profile reviews coaching and even gathering real feedback about your dating style in a personalized and affordable way to connect with us visit dateable. Podcasts dot com. You can also find us on facebook twitter and instagram. All under dateable podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe an auto download the podcast on itunes. Or your favorite podcast player. So you never miss an episode.