Jonathan from Reflect talks to us about the impact of mental health when it comes to dating and relationships. We talk about the change in stigma over the years, how anxiety and depression show up when dating, and why mental health is the crisis of our generation.
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S7E17 Mental Health and Dating
00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world.
This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches. Five hundred branches connects like minded people with similar interests to meet in real life over brunch. You answer a questionnaire about your interest and how you spend your time. And then they'll match you. In small groups of sixty eight at a brunch spot. In san francisco get a free entry into a brench now by signing up at five hundred brunches dot com and using the code date able. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable. Show all about modern defeating. Let's get serious for this episode. Yeah because i mean we're series in every every episode but this topic. I think is something that we've been talking about for a little bit on other episodes but we wanted to devote an entire episode to what we want to talk about today which is mental health when we think about mental health. What does it encompass according to mental health dot gov. it includes our emotional psychological and social well-being affects how we think feel and act also helps determine how we handle stress relate to others and make choices aka. Dating mental health is important every stage of life from childhood and adolescence through adulthood many factors contribute to mental health problems including biological factors genes or brain chemistry life experiences trauma abuse family history. All that you know. I feel like it's only in recent years. We've really talked about mental health in this culture. Yeah and sort of normalized this idea of mental health because you know battery say monetize. It was so stigmatized. When i was when i was a child. You just if someone's like oh my god or something really wrong with them right now. Mental health is something. It's almost like going to the gym. If you go the gym to work out your body you should also go see a therapist a workout. You're so with that. We have jonathan tram fan here. He is the founder of reflect which is a mental health platform. That reimagined in person therapy to be more accessible and effective and johnson spin in san francisco for seven years originally from texas. He's thirty seven. He questioned that was still mid thirties. As well and i question. I like to say i'm mid thirties. See people as when you're like okay. That's late thirties friend. Yeah that one year difference. He has single an active league. going on dates. You don't be quieting. We're done. But i love old time like giving these visual cues again nodding. Here's knx for having me guys. I'm super excited to have you. Because i think mental health is deputy but have we can moment especially i think reflect all the other online Therapy platforms to just made it a lot more sensible. What we're kind of saying earlier is like historically there slink. Wrong with you sought therapy a therapist but now it's so easy and it's so like more mainstream so i think there's that side of it then there's also the recent suicides that have come from a lot of liberties that have kind of why we started Reaching out to you wanted to have this conversation and you know suicide is a tenth leading cause of death in the us. I don't know what it is in other countries but it's also up there australia. Australia by the highest male suicide rate is australia which is surprising for a lot of people. Let it just shows you that. You never know what someone's going through and even with the recent suicides of kate spade of eg anthony bourdain. You didn't nobody saw that side and it just shows that you never know someone's journey and it's okay now that we can talk about it and how lee how to get passerini alone but with a third parties right so jonathan. What got you into this space. I guess of a therapy but also making accessible for others will. That's a great question. I first of all thank you for having me an important topic. And i think the commission is long overdue. So i'm glad we're having the conversation s. I'll come out and tell you that i am. I'm not a clinician. Actually came to mental health very much as a client. I say organizational psychology in college spend about a decade working in consulting helping businesses grow watch products in new markets ran marketing for a startup in the fashion space. All that to say a few years guy realized. I was stressed and distressed for a very long time. Thank you tiger mom.
00:05:03 - 00:10:00
It was actually my roommate. Who's just therapy. Didn't mean the first place. I think i was more. I thought i was in a funk. Now looking back i realise offer for anxiety but it was something that i didn't really talk about because i didn't think it was different because everyone in my life was taipei overachiever. So it didn't seem like it. Was that different. Yeah and when she said. Have you thought about therapy. I think my exact words were hell. No i'm not crazy. So i come a very long way from pre contemplative to actually being advocate for therapy and i think goes back to your point around stigma and the idea that it's so hard to get help and for me. It wasn't actually even stigma it. Once i got over the fact that i wanted therapists. It was my six months search for therapists. It added more stressed. I could see. I'm trying to avoid stress. That was what many feel long and i talked to more people. I realize this is a really big problem. Eighty percent of people who have mental health issue never find the right care. I totally believe that god. I don't even know where you go the for your company. You might little googling and you might ask around but really. that's where it ends. I like that you brought up stress as a major indicator for when you were like. I think i might need to seek help of some sort. I was listening to this. Podcast called on. Fuck your brain. She was basically saying like people. Think if when you're stressed that's a productive feeling like if your stress than you're accomplishing something your stress than you're you're doing yourself a favor away feel good about it. But she's like stress is actually a mental health issue. When you have stress you need to address it because it's actually very unproductive so i thought that was really interesting to think about because people think mental health is like depression and suicidal thoughts. It doesn't have to be that drastic event so that's a good segue. 'cause i wanna talk about like. What are the differences. Think there is one side of mental health. That's new trendy with therapy and meditation. All the stuff blake optimizing your mental health. And then there's another side of just diagnosed illnesses. Can you kind of talk to that a little more. I think it's a great question. It's a great kind of nuance the conversation. Because i think folks come to the topic of mental health very different by sees based off of maybe their own experience with. They grew up with Again because i'm not a clinician. I don't want to get into the diagnosis okay. i will say that the american psychiatric association publishes guideline around mental health. Illnesses called the dsm which outlines the criteria for various different diagnoses for Different he's like bipolar schizophrenia. But i think mental health is more nuanced than that Eddie and similarly with physical health is over from acid reflux and my back is a little bit achey. Sometimes if i work out too much because you're in your mid thirties. Because i thank you but you wouldn't say that you're either healthier your unhealthy. Binary feeling the idea that i've seen definitions of mental health is the absence of mental illness. I think that's really kind of overly simplistic. It really is a spectrum yet. And i think about that and i think because it seen as binary either either great an ear in control or you're crazy anyway. That's what my old self years ago bought me juice juices like the difference then between being diagnosed with clinical depression versus more situational depression. Yeah i think it's it's so funny. Because we as a society put so much value on label even the way that insurance things about mental health diagnosis code fun. Fat guys. Sixty percent of anxiety. Depression share the same symptoms. And my friends have been misdiagnosed. Many times. I mean there are clear again through the dsm reasons and criteria for different diseases but for many of us it's journey in and out some days the same thing may make me more anxious other days. It makes me less anxious. Zach just like with with high blood pressure. You have some days. You don't have it other days and many died depends on your environment. I think if it is a medical emergency obviously we should consult an expert. If it's an urgent issue should go see a the er go to a healthcare professional apart from very severe situations. In my opinion. It's very much a spectrum. We have partnerships with a bunch of medical providers across the bay area and they say actually seventy percent of their patients present with mental health related symptoms. But we think it's we think it's chest we think it's difficulty sleeping interesting. And so. I think what's really hard about mental health. Is it something that were only starting to understand. And i think it's way behind physical. How in our understanding of it and so you know. Thirty years ago. I used to do a lot of work in oncology and cancer and thirty years ago we saw you have cancer now we say you have non small cell lung cancer with an egfr mutation. I think mental health moving that direction because people get misdiagnose so much whether or not you are diagnosed. Does it doesn't change the fact that you could still benefit from care. That's also an interesting point. Because julian i were just talking about how when you go to go see. A therapist is reactive or it. Should it be proactive right.
00:10:00 - 00:15:13
And then to help a lot of times we think about really like a compelling reason to go see a therapist like you're going through heartbreak or you're you're having a hard time at work or transitioning but sometimes you may not need a reason. It's a check in so it's more preventive care. Why think if you had if you have parents or with a high school. That's reason enough to auburn backer Always reflect me. Say that you don't to have a heart attack due to the gym. Why do we wait panic attack. You see if there as yellow trail in our vision as you want to the gym for your soul in the sense that it is a place to go to before. Your cup is completely full reactive. Nature of waiting to. It's really bad urgently looking for somebody not buying the right care. Spiral out of control is something that i think so many of my friends experience because we wait till it's really really bad and many of our therapists that you know i would love to work with clients before it gets really bad because cup is not full. Yeah so you can learn better. Coping skills can learn how to process things in a different way because for me. Therapy is really interesting because our minds are full of pathways. We have laid out over time. And i imagine like a field and you've walking the same path for so long on on the field to get from plan to point b. That you forget that there are other ways of doing things and so when you have space in. It's not urgent and it's reactive. You're able to examine thought patterns in a different way and were practically with your therapist to be able to say. Hey how would. I want to see the situation. How would i want to behave in the situation. What can i do to change and influence the future situation. So it's not like waiting until something bad happens but it's really about being your best self. I do think like it is like sometimes solution to our problems. I do see why people like. I remember what i i reached out for therapy. It was after a bad break up so it definitely took like that time. Yes i probably could have benefited from it years before in theory but sometimes it does take that feeling of being depressed to actually seek out help it comes from this myth or a misrepresentation of of therapy where people think therapy is like going to a fortune teller. They're gonna give you all the life answers and give you direction on what to what to do. And i remember when we are having this conversation. Julian i 'cause julie's like this is what therapies like and i never experienced it she's like it's about giving you answers. Txz would you learn it. Yeah yeah tools. I'd just like i almost we like. It's more one talking out everything that you've been holding in. Yes so letting that out into you is also getting to know yourself mice on a much deeper level. That's in an unbiased. Yes bhakta right. I dated the sky for a while before. He told me he had depression issues. It came from. It was passed down from his family and we finally talked about it. It was so fascinating to me in enlightening to me. Because he's like. I treat it like getting cold. It's like i know the symptoms of winning about to get depressed yet. I know when i am in that deep depression would that feels like so in the future. I know exactly what to do in that situation. It's not debilitating at all because he knows how to cope with it. But i wanna know like where do you think. The stigma of mental health issues came from. Is it because back in the day. The people you knew who are therapy had major issues and and that's those are the only people that you thought were in therapy. You know i think about us a lot. And i think it comes back to the fact that you know there's archetype and a mental model we have in our minds about larry write or people that were sent to the asylum young Would i was kind of doing research for this conversation. I realized even the idea of being with something that was still in the dsm a disease state until nineteen. I think eighty six malia how far we've come into our understanding of one specific thing that we thing was really stigmatized idea comes from the fact of a disease where there's a lot of shame to it and so we don't talk about it even though one in five americans as a diagnosed mental health issue even though half of americans experience in mental health issue in their lifetime. We still when it happens to us. We're the only ones a shame really feeds upon itself. You know the the really crappy thing about anxiety and depression is they actually have in their pathology one of the symptoms your alone when you have anxiety depression you actually end up recruiting yourself moving up and pulling away and that pulling away actually causes for you to reinforce feeling that you are alone because there's no one around you i'm so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy out a bit even you know they say Firefly mentality your personal vision even narrows so the idea of having optionality or having other things you can do to get out of this. It's really hard even though it's so prevalent. Even though trump americans have dies diagnosed with mental health issue and half of americans will experience significant mental health issue in their lifetime. We still feel along so one of the things that caught our attention to have you as a guest was post that you put on linden that basically said i truly believe that mental health is the crisis of our generation too high profile suicides.
00:15:13 - 00:20:03
This week our ip kate spade anthony bourdain are yet more reminders than many of us sovereign silence in those who are quotes successful are far from immune. I'm more committed than ever to the work. Reflects doing to improve access in stigma. If you know someone who may need help please be resource and have uncomfortable conversations. If you've questions on how message me. The problem needs all of our help. Solvay which i think is elegance. I wanted to read that. But why do you think that mental health is the crisis of our generation. That's a bold statement. Here's a crazy fact. The number one cause disbelieving. America today is depression. I think if the reason why his mental health effects physical health and our mental health effects who we see in the mirror. The reason it's a crisis be is because if we're suffering silence and we're not dealing with the cause was basically putting banning on top of band aid if you think about in the dating situation so much of our mental health affects how our own self esteem ourselves. How we see our loved ones and so you can be frustrated with the symptom of our not. Dating sucks or this is difficult. But if you don't get to the root cause of what might be driving that you're always going to be suffering. It doesn't ever get better until you deal. I do feel like dating fatigue when people blame it on the apps or blame it on modern day yes stems from something much deeper than that and sometimes they could descend from something from your childhood yet. But that's going to a therapist would help uncover cover. It's not just like the app suck. It's not vasant. Rai which by the way the i do agree that the apps not just dating apps but also facebook instagram other. Apps have a human obsolete mattia. Total different podcasts. That is really. I think one of the reasons it's become Right now is because the information that our brains process on a daily basis is way more than any other time in human history well. I heard of the millennial generation are the loneliest. And i think that's really compelling to hear to be. Millennials are the most connected yet ration- in terms of digital right everyone online but also the most lonely because they feel most disconnected humanity. Totally sad sad. So when you're saying suffering in silence that's what this generation's doing are suffering in silence. An someone told me once that happiness is expectation minus reality And i thought that was such an interesting frame because no matter how is if what you see social media tation of her life yes better and so the idea that there. Such a disconnect between what. We're seeing what we should be doing yet. Or what our life should be in this fomo idea versus. What i realize are disconnected. That dissonance is really what exact you stand tall. So what are some other ways that you think that mental health place dating since obviously a dating podcasts. Yeah i think so much of how we see ourselves and how we relate to other people comes very much to surface when we think about dating because a lot of datings by your own self esteem. Yes updating is about how your other people have you react to how people treat you. I think about you. I'm still very much single and for a long time. The story my head that you know. I'm just destined to be alone or a story my head that oh the dating scene sucks. We all have that narrative our ads right. You're not the only one. And thank you for saying that. Because i think when you feel it you can't cure the olympic. Give me one. Yeah and you see everyone's relationship status on facebook. You see these great wedding baby announcements and again you realize it. I think all of us work on different parts of our relations even when we are in relationships. And i don't know health is some. It's only when you're dating of the problem now when your relationship and in fact you know we we look at the reasons why people come to therapy and almost seventy percent of those who come to their site relationship stress interesting dating issues as reasons why they come to therapy. So what are some of the top issues like reporting if you disclose while i can say in general oftentimes. It's it's said either. It's a bad break up more. It's frustration with not being relationship. And the evan flows of stop and starts dating Decide loneliness the getting to date three and someone go. Skiing are the are the as get so busy. Oftentimes what happens is Someone might be ghosting because they really bad work issue but on the receiving end we look at that as a something about me.
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Yeah and it's really funny. That i think i read this other article that said that eighty percent of people when they're when they're dating someone who's not feeling not feeling it they want the person to say. Hey and and i really like you as a friend i. I don't feel moving forward yet when we're in a situation where we're feel that way twenty percent of us actually do that conversation. Yeah yeah that's pretty high scooper member like in my early twenties. When i was like starting to date morally major anxiety if i would like tech someone that i wouldn't hear back from them like that still exists today will pretend like it's totally gone. I think like some of it like just understanding yourself. How do you cope with this. Like thinking like okay. Well they may not be near their phone. The maybe like in work like different situations it kind of trying to like work through it more. Yeah with such a connect us society today with your phone right. everything's online. everything's your phone. I feel like with modern dating when date one person amash dating to people. One is the person in real life yesterday. Actually and the other person's of prison when they're not with me in real life. And i make up all these stories about their other life you know. I think about like the times when they're not texting back. Oh they're probably on a date with someone else or they're like having some fabulous time writing like rooftop party. And i don't really know that but i think that's a problem with being so connected on the internet. Is you assume that person is not thinking about you. Which drives you feel lowlier. But i could definitely see how this plays into your sure swift. We are they say. Ignorance is bliss reason the ability to think through these stories. What they might doing. And i'll i'll i'll tell you as a story. I was guy very early on relationship and we were Out of town and we end up having a small fight bit and spiraling and i realized it was because there are certain triggers that were going on there were triggered me to feel certain way that then were him to feel different way and leading to a pretty big conflict and i was very thinking that i was in therapy the time i could go in and talk to my therapist but unpack. What were the reasons why and really understand. What was i doing that made me feel a certain way. And what was he doing them. Any feel this way and vice versa. And i think the awareness piece is so important when it comes to dating because you can really easily go down that mental pathway. That you've kind of walked through three seven years licencee. Oh this is happening. Because he doesn't like me or this is happening. Because i'm not no one wants to date me right by pause and a little bit and actually having venue to process the things were happening relatively real time and say okay. What are the reasons why this might be happening. And how much of it is me. And how much of his own issues And actually that's a really important delineation that we don't make mind is i think actually like that was definitely attorney point for myself when you started part of. It was like what i was in a relationship. It really understood someone else's in what they were going through. It's like it's not all about you just as you're thinking we're way they're also think he had different way then there's also just like they may not be in front of their phone right this minute like these are just so obvious but it can really start to spiral unless you have that kind of mental capacity to start the of the various situations. What i loved about therapy. Was this idea that i can process it and then i can think about what would how i wanna react. Nest haven't happened yet and then sort of let's start to create new pathways in the brain and practice those things so that when it happens again someone is in text me or something doesn't happen in the goes you don't freak out and ten know doing that. Clarifier tax the door. But i think that that behavior the insight plus the behavioral change. Yeah and i just for me. That's why i'm about there. Because it is his great sounding board to process patterns that you might not even know your that are happening in that awareness is the first blake seed that then can lead to change. That can actually help you become the person that you want to be or at least deal with ups and downs. Because you can't control other someone's gonna call you back now you can't control or someone actually ends of line to date you or not but you can't control how you react situations who believes at how much you internalize adverse. How much do you recognize. Feel valued those feelings and then take lessons on so this is a really important distinction for me when it comes to therapy is one of the stigmas for like asian cultures when it comes to therapy is that it's such a selfish thing to do.
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Well are you so on yourself. You know why. Why are you going to pay someone. Just talk about yourself okay. So amazing about therapy. Is that once you start. You start taking the focus off of yourself and it helps you process how you treat others. Yeah right because the more then as always latest victim mentality. Why is this happening to me. Why am i feeling that way but then after therapy you're like wait. Why do i treat others this way. And why do other people treat me this way. Also it actually takes the focus off of yourself totally and i think just like if you can like talk through it have less anxiety and depression are the worst case scenario. Yeah you can actually start to think. Like i remember my therapist saying this like it's like if you're not like on the same page with some behavioral that's happening with your partner instead of just being like okay. I'm done like. They're not acting the way i want to. First of all they're online reader they don't even know that you don't want them to act that way so it's like have a conversation with them let them know your needs all of that in then if they keep doing it like have a conversation. Yeah and then. Obviously they just keep disregard knew then that could get to the point. That you're like is the right fit but instead of just like blowing it off like from the very first time when you haven't even like have that communication it's kind of like you can get the rest of your emotions and check that you can think clearer about like the longer picture. There's this concept. Meanwhile lately lately in his term that. I made up word. But it's called. It's thoughtful your point. It really gives you power in egypt z to be able to understand the world may also change your behavior to recognize. What can you do a situation to actually influence the outcome. Jared just the victim. Yep there are more options than you think. You are more possible explanations than you think. Yeah and so if this is something that starts to happen over again you can actually start to change your behavior your mentality to be more resilient or to treat other people better anything. Bad alternately is very is the opposite of selfish. It's actually most of you can do. It is being able to take ownership in how you treat other people and recognize that. It's not you know there's multi in the world in the way you see. I guess we're not trying to self therapy on this episode. I think just focusing on your mental health is the most important thing we want to promote here and when you do that dating becomes better not because all of a sudden you're going to track all these people the love your life right away. It's not that you are at their mental health startup and seal all door way. you're processing. Yeah maybe you're not feeling anxious. Like i just had that look like this. Half of the sporting this guy Hitter was like. Oh do you want to meet up later today knows Great gave it by number. They like check back. It's all he unmatched me. Which is really czar. But i think like my old self would have been like what the heck what the heck it like. Maybe vicki up stories. And i'm like you don't act like if he good him. If i don't care how it is odd but i just say i think it's an example like if i was not in a place that make i think more clearly in like also like a value of yourself than you could just it could really go down a rabbit hole. It's just depressed all day about a Ruin your whole week real-life but i think it's about like putting yourself having an outer body experience so when something like that does happen to you. You kinda like see yourself from another perspective. Yeah they like. It's not a big deal. Yeah what's really amazing. Is you know i. I only relies very recently. I think you made us player. Julie that like not everyone reacts the same situation the same way not all of us even see the situation the same way. Yeah but for a long time. I was like well if i were him. I would do this right. You're not gonna the what you're not and i think that's a really important distinction because it makes us more empathetic in more open to the fact that maybe people don't have malicious intent. But they're just doing the best we we'll take our italy. I think sexually segues nicely to the other side of mental hall. So i've had close friends. I've dated people that have just like diagnosed clinical depression. That has nothing to do with data. comes in and out of their lives as part of like they've had this from very early ages. If you're dating someone that is experiencing this. What are some ways that like. You can make it work with them. It's time to take a quick break so we can tell you about our current sponsor the maude clock at mont cloth.
00:30:03 - 00:35:00
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For everyone on your list yourself included to get fifty percent off your purchase of one hundred dollars or more go to 'em od t h dot com and enter the code dateable at checkout again. That's m. o. D. c. l. o. T. h. dot com and enter the code dateable at checkout. The offer ends february second. So make your purchase today now back to the show if dating someone that is experiencing mess. What are some ways that you can make it work with them. I think the every situation is different. Yeah so. I want to advice to everybody in this should be taken arcades baselessly whether it sings depression waterline. Whatever the issue is when you're when you're the loved one we. We all have a tendency to wanna solve the problem. Yes and if so much true in america yes and it's a measurement outlets healthy was helpful and even when you don't i was feeling anxious i have friends or loved ones or that would be like just snap out of it. You have a great life. Why can't you just you're great. Can you to see that. And i think that what we wanna here in the situation is just that someone's they are for us. Yes in their gathering us and that their space the bay. We'll be here for us. And i think that safety to be able to know that person really can meet you. Where you're at is the best gift you can give someone that you love totally. When i went to couples counseling that was my biggest takeaway was to validate your partner's feelings even if you don't agree with how they feel. You can't argue with that because that's how they really got them so you got them validate their partner and i think also like respecting space like you said is a big one. Because it's like sometimes like you'd be like to spend every minute with someone but if they're in leg depressive state and they need their alone time manager like i have to pulp back a little like give them what they need at this point and sometimes that means that someone might not be the space to be dating. Yes right about stories earlier about the guy who was recognizing he has coke depression and he knows it is. I think we all are on our own. Journeys andersen our own selves. And the things that we offer the things that trigger s whatever that might be and we can create space or somebody else in the try to be there they can also not be ready to and so yes. If you're the person in the situation it's great to seek care and get help and it can be everything from a mindfulness app to therapy to something more More serious help but as the other person you can be there and you could help. Michigan did you. Also i think it's important to remember that. This is their journey. Their is well. Yeah because i think when you someone. There's a tendency to say. I i will be there and i can fix it if i if it doesn't work out. It's to idid. And i think separating that as well so you wanna current spaced out and love someone unconditionally. Also know if they're not ready and don't have the space to be in a relationship the best you can do is let them deal with themselves first and then if it's meant to be all come back communicate that with your yes because with the guy was dating. I wanted to know his process. He's like you know when i'm in that depressive state i don't want to see anybody or talking buddy for six days. He was like very specific six days. I'm not going to see you. And i had to be okay with that but at least we had that conversation. Yeah and i did. You can't take it personally right when he needs to feel healthier. That's right but with the absence of information you'll make up story year for someone for sixty three really long. I think yeah. I think verbal confirmation hearings. I've had this as well. It's like just being like this is nothing to do with you like this is like me going through. That is really helpful to someone that is on that like receiving side of it. I mean okay. So i have emotional support animal. My dog is certified emotional support in starting the quiz. I was like oh my god. Yes i suffer from this and the end this madness. I think people just need to recognize. I don't think the statistics are right. I would say a hundred percent of people are experiencing some sort of mental health issues again. If you have parents it'd be went to high school. i.
00:35:01 - 00:40:13
I think we're all journey. And i love that idea that it's one hundred percent because there's and there's nothing wrong with being one hundred percent the one hundred percent because we're all living in the world it's understand because we all have been on dates and we all want to be loved or we all have that journey and i think recognizing that it is under percent and there's nothing wrong with it being hundred percent. I think really powerful to help de stigmatize. So let's flip the roles julie's question which is what have you. Are someone suffering from mental health issues. And you're dating someone and house. Should you approach this partnership. I think it comes back down to your point around communication whether you have a diagnosis issue are whether you're someone who this is a late night owl right or you're someone who needs your alone time or it's any part of your persona that could influence and impact somebody else whether it's diagnosis or not. It's great to have the competition thoughtfully and at the appropriate time. And so i think about that a lot in terms of the on my friendships and being able to say. Hey this is something that i. I'm having a tough time right now. This that need from friends. I think we oftentimes don't have that conversation. We jump straight to. There are bad fried. Because they didn't do this for our. I is so i don't think you need to have a diagnosed mental health issue to to rely on the importance of communication. And if you happen to have diagnosis issue or you happen to have tendencies. Ryan guy zaire depression. Then it's just one more reason to have that conversation. Yeah but it's nothing unique that you wouldn't wanna have in any other relationship you're pricing sometimes. People don't want to be a burden. I think comes up a lot. What would you say to people. That's dollars. I don't want to bring it up to them because i don't wanna be a. I want them to have to deal with this. All that i will say someone who is asian as well. This idea of burning your friends and i had this idea like a good. The good friend shouldn't ask for these things. That's my story my head so and there's a lot of i think the asian community it's about. What can you do for other people. What is your duty to other. People never been demanding asking what people can do for you. And i think one of my biggest fears for longtime was coming across a selfish come across as demanding silent over index and not. Nice things. yeah. I think one of my good friends to not as an agent. Jewish ghetto are the same thing. I saw crazy rich. Asians iso dot rich. But the other two. I can i but you know a really good friend of mine said to me. Recently she has. You will never come across as demanding are selfish. And because you're so far removed from that date when you are someone who's afraid of getaway not likely to have across. Ask your own day and i thought a lot of times like being on the receiving side. You do want that person to come to you. Like i think there's a bond that feels closer someone is telling you about their personal struggles all of that in a lot of times. You're not a bird you're actually like they want to be there for you. Yeah yeah and. I think it's about you know it's two things it's about being able to ask for others. What do you need but also recognizing that you can also self soothe. And there's this mindless compassion. And how you help yourself. How do you think about self care. And all of those things. And so i think being more thoughtful about your own mental allows you to take more agency in your own life. Food also wants your doing that. Then asking also asking for help from other people doesn't feel as hard because you're realizing i'm taking steps to take for myself right and one of those steps is to ask for help from others. I think that's a great way to talk about some solutions. Forget or some tools if someone is experiencing mental health issues or they feel like they may be okay Not sell self-diagnosis therapy is not an option right now. What are some other ways. People can work on their mental. Help i think are so many great apps and a resources online that you can use to be able to get more information and help build skills so just like mental health is a spectrum. The care options are a spectrum as well In on some hang on one hand there's lots of great free apps that are out there light calm yet. More had space simple practice that allow you to be able to start to work and create space for yourself to be able to build awareness in your life. And i think that can often lead to realizing i would like to talk to someone else about this issue and then therapy commute great resource in our. We have a survey that you take when you come to reflect and we don't talk about diagnosis. We asked you know what are the things you're stressed about. Because he recognized that you could benefit from therapy even before. There's a diagnosis. And obviously if the other end of the spectrum of something that's very urgent we always say if it's a life threatening issue should go emergency room or talk to a professional you know that spectrum is so so why yet so nuanced on so it's about understanding what works for you even with in therapy.
00:40:13 - 00:45:03
Their different types of therapy and the different types of therapies. And so there is not a one-size-fits-all gray. Every person i started actually a better help online. And i found that it was easier right like you can literally get started by clicking a button. Manju is someone you don't leave your house and you just chat online. There was great. Like intro. Therapy for me because i feel like therapy felt very daunting i was like how do i find someone. What do i do. I don't know if i won't like talk to someone and sit in the coach. Yeah so that was by insurance. And then i did that for probably like six months or so and then i was like i feel kinda got the most i can out of this. I think i'd like to be able to talk through things with therapist. Like actually meet. And that's actually how reflect. So i feel like the better help was kind of like a segue to get to like actual talk therapy. I think for me was talking to julie. Talking to other people who've gone through the process is so much better than reading about it online. Continually then i can hear how julie benefited from it for herself. Yes how someone else benefited from from themselves. I've also done a lot of quizzes online. Housing is so interesting. In general right then i know what my triggers are. I know what my schema czar. He just getting to know yourself better through these resources. A great way to so this conversation obviously was triggered by the recent suicide. So i guess just to not end on a bad note. But i want to talk a little further about suicide and kind of win. You get to that point what you can do for their too. Yeah you know. This is the place where i i think when we feel alone. Suicide often a such a long journey to get to that point I think it's really important to to realize there are so many options along the ray. Obviously the national suicide hotline is huge and there are research online for folks who are feeling like. They're immediately looking for that as a last resort. But it's really a important to think about what happens before and i think suicides become something where it draws national attention. It's like a topic that we all recognize. Its really severe. Yes but just like physical health heart attack can be something that is we can deal with an and work on way before that happens right. It's similarly with with suicide. It's hard to talk about it from the point of the person who's in that situation i think if you're in that situation it's important to remember the. Do you have other people around you. Taking the time to pause and and win diseases isn't taking over. You can see more optionality right when ends up killing themselves. Oftentimes there there are loved ones. That always come out. And say. I wish i had known yes i would have been there for that person really. The problem is when you're feeling bad the optionality in the activation energy required to call somebody else and ask for. The help is so great. So i think what i always advises for all of us to be little more vulnerable in our competitions matures that we care about to always say you know what i was feeling bad. I remember francis to me. She was three in the morning me. That's happening. i'm always here for you. I know that. Yeah oftentimes when you feel alone. It's not that point. I never gotten to that point. Yeah it's all the points up leading up to that lately and so the only thing the one that we can do to save other people we are there for you. Your resource checking in with friends. Even you know. I had a good friend of mine. Who with your time. And for a long time i would just text him randomly and say just thinking about you. Hope all hope you're doing okay. Net can mean such. I know like when i was going through a period like just getting stuff like that was really made a huge difference. Yeah and it really any. You don't need anything in return now. The president may not even text. You back but i think oftentimes my friends is. Why do i know you're really busy. So i don't wanna be burn for you. That's why i'm not texting you. But i think the the fear of being a burden leads us further feeling of isolation. yeah but then can make someone feel like. There's no other. There's no cares for them. And so i think when you are the loved ones in before it gets the situation looking to practice to be able to be more vulnerable and talk about it. And i think one of the greatest gifts. Founding reflect is having these really great honest. Compositions sometimes awkward in conversations with my friends. Who said to me you know. I never tell anyone this. But i had a really tough time. I think knowing that it you're not alone in that feeling actually is really empowering. That is actually one major solution to not feeling lonely is actually a realizing that other people. Therefore you like you're saying it's not just the act of suicide because that's what gets the media attention but it's a series of events and situations that lead up to that that's what's most important.
00:45:03 - 00:50:03
That's where people need help. And i think one of the things we do in this society is that we were saying we push through things we avoid. We'd cope but now think about imagine a world where you don't need to cope with it anymore. You have tools to help you to get through them. When have tools to help you get better. It's like imaginative. Use winter your life with poor eyesight and no idea. You just been seeing the world in a very fuzzy way and one day. Swimming gives you glasses. And you're like holy shit. I could've been like this my adult life. I had no idea. Of course you were still functional functioning human being. It's not life or death message but imagine if he could just see the world in a much clearer way. so that's a great segue. let's do the takeaway oppositions. It's been phenomenal. Thank you so much for being in. Yeah we don't even know where to start. I think for me probably this holy concept of the spectrum of mental health. i think is really really eye-opening. Because like i think some of it you think of like i think that Definition you mentioned like removing mental illness. Depression bipolar disorder. Like all this stuff. And it's like yes. That is definitely some of it but i like this notion of a spectrum like you can be there at some. Sometimes everybody experiences some sort of mental health issues so it's not just about getting diagnosed with some kind of disease or illness. It's it's how you're feeling only you know how you're feeling it's okay to recognize that and think like the biggest takeaway for me is to normalize mental health. It's not mental illness. It is mental health. It's all about going to the gym to exercise your mental health. So you're able to live life in a much stronger resilient and and just like we were saying just like you go to the gym for your body wide when you do something for your mental health as well as other tako is just like how a lot people don't associate mental health. David end like we. We're talking about it so much like the actor. What's wrong my cities. What's wrong all this stuff. So i think at least for me. I probably had the most success time. Dating is when i actually took that break to assess what was going on mentally and get to a place that i felt happier so i think that so much of it is related to mental and then on the flip side if you are fatigued by dating because of you think like the people. You're matching with on apps. Have these glorious wonderful lives and their dating. All these other fabulous people are ignoring you. Think about that. Everyone's going through some sort of health journey young. You don't know with someone's going through. He can't make any obese assumption. Yeah i think that's the other huge takeaway is like you were just yourself like you cannot just project what you're feeling onto someone else and i think like if people are struggling with mental health just being opening communicative will go a both way with both partners with the person facing it. They will feel better. They let someone in. Most people get the most enjoyment out of relationships. That's why so many of us are depressed about it or having zayed's about it is because the end of the day relationships are what makes the most of us the happiest and i think aspect of if you're face something sharing that and then if you're the person loved one being able to be there for someone and kind of understand what's going on instead of spiraling out of control of your own. Thoughts is the best way to handle anything yeah. Communication is so important also realizing when you do need space because you are being frustrated if you're feeling air with dating also cater to take a pause work on yourself a little bit and then go back into dating with a with a fresh set of eyes. Rush mentality be has just like you. If you're tired running you're training for marathon days off in case you tired ya. If you're like dating in your depressed that you're single still in your depressed that no one calls you back and all the staff in it's like ruining other aspects of your life or your feelings about that text message like data speak fun and it's going to like spill over onto those dates to your to preston beating. Yeah dating is never the solution for your mental health. People kind of feel like oh once again relationship i'll be. I'll be much happier as obviously lower this really this. I know a lot of people who are in relationships in are solely not a solution at all. Yeah so. I think it's good to talk about this. And you know even if therapy is not an option for you right now just opening up this conversation with your family and your friends is a great first set just talking out loud is a great step search journaling.
00:50:03 - 00:55:00
You know. get to know yourself better in like that. Jonathan said sometimes you feel these things bother you some times. They don't so dumb on the days when these things don't you that's when you should start journaling y it doesn't bother you on those days. What are you doing differently next time. You feel them again. You know how to deal with the great point in for anyone that is interested in Therapy i highly recommend reflect. Well how's work. You basically just take a quiz in reflecting we love you. As i like never mind matches you were free so i think it's a really great way to easily connect with someone and not have to like be. Where do i even start. How do i find this person. Yeah so for me. When i was in the process. What was really hard was just doing what i needed. And knowing who will be right for me yeah call. There was when call me back and so it was very hard process. We'd made that process really easy through a data driven matching process. Julia said you took a short quiz actually match you if few abyss one two or three the option doing video or phone based comes consultation with them now. in what's great. Is it kind of helped me where you're at if you're busy and it's easier to a phone conversation on the key is that we use over one hundred and fifty variables to match with right therapist dating data algorithm and it really is actually the the number. One predictor of success therapy. So it's called therapeutic alliance And so we actually collected on our therapists. And we collect it on the client's survey and so we match you with using data. The even the therapist isn't have on themselves often and ninety percent of those who are process by the therapist that they like. Yeah i think for me what i did it. All them were great but one of them definitely felt like very spiritual. The one i ended up going to my loved She was more practical. And so i think some of it wasn't like was bad or good. It was just like what's the right fit for you. What yeah even. When we had dr rachel on the show a therapist herself. She says she has a few therapists. Herself she has one. That's more spiritual wants more practical and she sometimes might just need more than one therapist for depending on what mood. You're in derek or on where you are like what stage you're going through. And that's what's great is we have clients who stand there be For wildland decide. Hey this is a great fit. But i to try out something different and so the ability to once you find a great fit we help with the scheduling and billing and provide tools to make the whole process really easy and allow you to get the most out of the therapy experience. Yeah but one of that. One of those things is also. If you feel like you'd like to be remastered view after some time went to pause and trisomy all's knowing that reflect is there you know having to do all over again on your is view. The great total and other obstacle people have come to therapy. Is the price apple. Thinks therapy is very pricey so how does reflect handle that. I think about that alignment for me. If it's something that we should all do we shouldn't wait till bad may times because there'd be so expensive and so hard to fine. We had to push off and as we start to reflect. I really wanted to create something different. And so we've pardoned with hundreds of therapist in the bay area so the largest salt pay number therapists in the bay area at every ninety per session. That's pretty good. Because typically what is it like seventy two t two yeah And i think in for us. It's it's really great that we phenomenal therapists platform that her master's and doctorate level toddler field. But they also believe it's important for people not to wait till it's really bad even with type five dollars. We can help with Out of network insurance billing get help with f. and billing so the whole goal is to working are selfish that's already Such a focus area and it's all sometimes can be hard everything around that to feel as easy as also yeah with my insurance ended up being like fifty session. Wow that's really. That's going to the gym that way. Cheaper than personal training. Yeah i mean that's the thing is like people spend a ton of money on personal trading beginning. Let's go lead to result in. It could also wanna say it's not yet but just as much mentally as there as well and If someone's not in the bay area can they still access care yet. So we are only live in the bay area right now But if someone's interested in getting care they can always rejected us or they can psychologist as another resource online for those outside of the bay area. Gotten okay but yeah. If you're the barry. Barry have questions. We'd love to be a resource regardless because you know we have great therapists and great clients are looking for their be from all over country. They're reaching out to us now and so I think it's a problem that extends well beyond the area after night leading. Health is definitely having a moment. Like easily yeah. We'll thank you so much. Jonathan this has been a great conversation of course and we've been wind. Have this conversation for a long time. It's not just so much like it shouldn't be reactive.
00:55:01 - 00:57:51
Mental health should never be reactive. Oh i'm feeling so bad. I'm feeling so low anthony so depressed. It should be preventative care. And i think we should all take that in and make it a priority in our lives. And i think with jonathan mentioned though if it is to a point that it's a medical emergency like always use the national suicide prevention lifeline. Which is eight hundred two seven three eight two five five. Yes and if and for those who wanted for therapists you can find. Reflect at join reflect dot com. Thank you so much shot and and you are single so you out. Jonathan thanks guys. you're welcome. Let's wrap this up to hear from you our listeners. If you have a topic you wanna share on our show. You love to have you as a guest on our show. He can always be anonymous. We can change your name so there you go. There's really no reason not to come our show check at our website. Dateable podcasts dot com. Thank you so much again. Jonathan and stay of all your action item for this week is to make mental health a priority so in addition to possibly seeking therapy there are other ways to also exercise your mental health just like we exercise our bodies is getting out and walking around exploring nature is taking up a new hobby as exploring your artistic and creative sides make mental health a priority. You deserve it. This episode of dateable is brought to you by five hundred brunches. Five hundred branches connects like minded people with similar interests to meet in real life over brunch. You answer a questionnaire about your interest and how you spend your time. And then they'll match you in small groups of sixty eight brench spot in san francisco get a free entry into a brench now by signing up at five hundred branches dot com and using the code date. Able if you know already. We have a revamped website with articles videos and content all about modern dating. You can also find our premium why series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums. We've had great feedback. About how actionable these episodes are so check them out on our website or i tunes music also visit the site today to see the latest about coaching where we connect you with. Dateable approved experts to help with everything from dating profile reviews coaching and even gathering real feedback about your dating style in personalized and affordable way to connect with us visit dateable. Podcast dot com. You can also find us on facebook twitter and instagram. All under dateable podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe an auto download the podcast on itunes. Or your favorite podcast player. So you never miss an episode.