Season 8 Episode 10: Don't wanna be played no more

00:00:00 - 00:05:02

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of dateable of show all about modern dating. So we have one of our most controversial episodes ever on the season. It was episode three called PSA to women if featured a man named Leon and he wanted to tell all women how some men like him thought about women and dating and how to get women to sleep with him. So he had very good intentions of coming on the show and spreading this PSA. But we received so many emails and Instagram Kalman's and whispers years walking down the street saying I now want to be a lesbian. I think listening to that show the tactics were definitely a little rough. I'd say the right word is. But it, you know, what's so funny is so we have alley here. I'm going to introduce her in a second. But we had a few. People comment and say, why did you Julie not like have a bigger reaction to what leeann was saying? Honestly, I think I was in shock for a lot of what he was saying. Because I think after Leon left the show, we had this very honest discussion Julian I, and I was like, I actually don't think men think like this. No, I think that's a very small cohort of men do and they I think of him as like a very your guy, and you're trying to date women in different boroughs. But I don't actually think medicine Cisco the globe down. I think like I was talking to a friend in her husband. And we started listening to episode. He was like I never thought this calculated about anything in my life and like yet, so calculated. Yeah. So I think I I don't want to say that no men think this way definitely think there's a subset out there. And I think it's probably more of the ones that women would kind of call like the players of the fuck boy or that type, but. There's also some good guys out there. So I do not I want women to know that exists. And I also want to just say that it's so great that someone like Allie wrote in and wants to pretty much like give her feedback about this episode down side of the story because that's what dateable is about. We're trying to create this platform for everyone share their opinions. Whether it be Leon or not just great to hear everyone's perspective. So that is a great way to introduce Allie. She is thirty one years old or originally from San Diego, apparently the duty soon. San Diego's getting crazy. We've been getting about it about. Currently, I I don't know. don't know. Eighteen so, yeah, I'm sure the dic- winter eighteen. She has been in San Francisco for five years currently pretty single, but taking data sabbatical welcome to the club. There has been quite a guest taking katie's sabbatical after the new year. It's just kind of like that reset or you know, what we should do. This is a great business. We just create like a dating a rehab center. Yeah. Where everyone like it like on the dating at that. And then they can meet each other. Yeah. I thought like a break-up support group that just meets once a day somewhere. Like anyone could just drop in going through a break up and talk out yet be great, except when you just beat like misery loves company, but you're crying writers of hearing about it. Gosh, that's true. If you're upstate you wanna talk about it. True. So I wanna read a little bit of from the Email that Allie sent to us, and then we can go straight into what her experience has been like. So she said, I can't tell you how how often I turn to you guys after break up and feel like I was so alone after all, but I found myself feeling really sad listening to your recent PSA episode while there are players out there, and I have encountered too many in my time that episode made me feel so hopeless. I used to be a girl who dated guys likely on up until a year ago. Really I've done so much work to learn some habits that lead me to these men one being the belief that this is just how guys are I spent so much time trying to shake myself into someone they like so up until a year ago. You're that girl falling for these boys believing the worst they were saying, obviously, did not listen to the man funnel episode. No. I listen up until a year ago. Maybe didn't come out of here. And now, you're enlightened that you've been saying. Tell us about your dating life up until a year ago.

00:05:02 - 00:10:12

What was that like, yeah? Great question. So I really liked dice who are very verbal and open with their emotions, I'm really open person. So I really connect to people when they tell me how they feel about things or childhood and their pain and a lot of these men, I would date were really open. They were really communicative and kind seeming. And so we would connect really quickly. And once that foundation was laid I would really trust them. So when they did things that would hurt me, you know, I would just remember all the connection we had Nick, why must be crazy. They really like me. How could they not? You know, they told me last night. They've never told anyone this story about their mom, and I'm only one they told. So you sedate Leon. Yeah. You're. Yeah. I used to date men like Leon, which is why the episode was really hard for me to hear. And what made me so frustrated was that he was like a women need to be smarter. You know, you need to know your standards, and I wasn't even able to have no my standards because I was being manipulated. So the second I felt something was off the guy would like assure me. I was just thinking the wrong thing or I was being over emotional or sue anxious. And then I would think about that. Maybe there. Right. So I wasn't even able to gain that strength in recognizing. So what was it example of away felt manipulated? So I was dating someone and he would come over like really late at night. He was always like, oh, I'm so busy working. I'm finishing this video. I'm x y and z and then he would get to my house at eleven. And I had been, you know, waiting for a couple of hours, and then we would hook up and then afterwards, he was cold me. And tell me he loves me. But in Spanish, and it was never meet with. He Spanish is Mexico que. He's. Yeah. You would say these things really intimate things to me. And then I would say, well, I was kind of bummed out. I was leading for you, and for this long, and you, you know, you weren't cut you didn't show up, and we barely have like any time together in he was like was just so anxious at Holly lake stopping so anxious. Like, I was working. I really care about you. Like, you know, and then yeah, he would hold me really tight and we'd have like intimate night cuddling. And I'd be like, oh, yeah. I guess he's right. I am just being anxious. And then when it would happen again. I would try not to say something again because I would think it was me in issue with me. So I was constantly trying to change myself to like fit into the mold of this woman who wouldn't get upset with him or who wouldn't have any issues in the relationship. So, you know, listening to Leon I was just thinking we'll, hey, what about you taking responsibility right for manipulating women. I mean. I think we're smart. It's just when you're manipulated. That's a whole different game that you have to go through in learn in order to even know it's happening isn't that just kind of where we are in the political climate today as well. I mean, I think for years, we talk we tell women to bring pepper spray and to bring, you know, put your keys in between your knuckles when you're out and about the why haven't we taught men not to hurt women, and it's the same as what you're bringing up is like for years, we've told women to be defensive and to protect yourself when it comes to love. But why haven't we taught men not to hurt women's feelings? Right. And that's kind of like the hunting point of where we're at where we've talked to talked to someone at the Goodman project where they're working on reshaping masculinity. And how to take responsibility instead of putting the onus on women. Now, I also say women have taken on too much responsibility in. In the last decade or so we're like, oh, that's problem. Oh, I can fix that. Yet will. Yeah. That that guy is a problem. I can adapt myself Ray, and we're also trying to balance the social construct where we have to be cool with everything. No, no, no. I don't wanna pressure you. We don't need to detour. It's all good. I'm just going to be like this cool girlfriend. You can come in and out of my life. I'm just I'm just call. And so it is like very conflicting where we are. Right. I it's very relevant. Why we're talking I agree with all that. So were there any other examples not even from this guy, but other guys too? Yeah, there's so many. Let's see I I dated this one guy who was an investment banker living in New York, and he would fly out to San Francisco in taking me on these lavish Dede's member went to this Speakeasy you have to use a password.

00:10:12 - 00:15:01

I don't know L like bourbon numbers. Yes. That one and. I mean, I'm like a tomboy who would prefer playing soccer than going out. I was so nervous. I didn't know what was happening, and he bought me all these fancy drinks. And then he was saying at the Fairmont end, we yeah, we tell it was like this really interesting night. And we carried on a relationship for talking back and forth for few months, and he came back again. And he was just acting a little distant, and it really was really hurtful, and I asked him like, hey, you know, what's going on? And he's like, I just can't get attached. Because I know we can't really be together. And yet, you know, we were doing all these like really intimate things to cover anything. Yeah. Like, we would hold hands. Every time. We walk down the street talk on the phone for three to four hours every night. So then when he said, you know, I just can't get attached than I was like, oh, I guess I shouldn't expect that. No, I guess or something wrong with my expectations there. Let me like you're saying. Let me adapt. So that I can make him feel comfortable in this situation. And it turns out he was sleeping with a ton of other women run which I found out. I think that's the tough part with all of this. And I cut brought us up on Leon's too. Because it's like on one side when he first told that storm, right? I could see because he's a New Yorker here. I could see that. But then when you're like is it a line, or is it just like their feelings do change because I think people's feelings can change. Yeah. But how do you December? It's like them just pulling game on you. Which Leon we openly admitted that all that was lines in rounds? Like, if this guy was sleeping with the whole city of San Francisco than maybe he was also doing lines. But also, he's not lying either. Right. I can't commit to you. I I enjoy spending time with you. But for some reason when we're fed a line like that, even if it's the truth, we think there is a glimmer of hope to geez. This person because their actions speak otherwise. Yeah. Right. It's yeah. And it's really confusing. It's so it was so confusing to me at the time. Now, I would know how to navigate that. But he would say like, I really do love and care about you. But I just can't be with you. So, but I wish she had said, my feelings have changed because that would have been more direct to me that would have been more direct. But also that may not be the case for him. Yeah. His feelings didn't change he enjoyed spending time with along with twenty other way. And so there is there is a kind of a gray area here. Right. So I think again we are in the driver's seat. We have to drive the conversation. So it's not so much about Dafteng to them. But also communicating what you are looking at or. So why do you think you are attracting men like this? Well, I think that I grew up thinking this is how guys are thinking guys do. Wanna commit they're terrified of marriage. They just wanna bone girls. And yet von I don't know. Exactly. Why? Maybe it's the movies. We grew up with nine days is he's just not that into yellow or. It's I think that's like a lot of people's perception. Because a pop culture for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have some guy friends who've told me I feel strange for wanting to be in a relationship because I feel like I shouldn't want that. Right. I've had guys tell me. Yeah. Into honest. I still have a hard time believing guys want that still I'm working towards believing that, but it's still really hard for me. While Julian I can tell you that we get emails and communication from men all the time who wasn't to dateable and say, they just can't find someone who will commit to them where they have a hard time dating. But they're looking for marriage. They're looking for something more substantial, but they just have a hard time. It's like those guys somehow cannot match up with girls who are also looking for the same thing. Yeah. They definitely exist out there. And I think that because there's so much opportunity for hookup culture. Or that it's really easy to just default to that. And I I have a really hard time because I don't like having casual hooking up. So I don't like doing that. I really like like a motion intimacy. So like, yeah, technically, I'm taking dating sabbatical. But it's not by choice writing me. And so I would know that some of these people were like the more of the players hugging. Get really busy. Yeah. This is a crazy story. But whatever I talk about an accommodate. So I'll tell you.

00:15:02 - 00:20:09

He a month later, I got committee. And I was like oh my God. I was like this is kinda cool 'cause I don't sleep with a lot of guys. So wait is this a different guy? Like, oh, wow. Like, finally, I'm like out there. But a month later I woke up, and I couldn't move my entire body like every joint was swollen. I couldn't bend my hands where my knees, and I went to the doctor, and they told me that in one percent of people combined. Yeah. This is like a real thing it triggers this like our severe arthritis autoimmune. All my go the fuck. Yeah. Clementi? Yeah. And I've actually known like one or two people who can like that's kind of happened to me. Mike not to the severe degree that. I added like I I had to go into civility for a while. Oh, my God even move. And when I hit. Yeah, you're walking PSA right now. I know I have a walking condom. And when I talked to him about it. He totally is that I was making it. So I don't know what he's like this just didn't come from me on us. Like, I said, I don't really hook up with video. So he was the only person I'd with so he wouldn't admit it. She wouldn't admit or at least evenly explore. No, he wouldn't have all. And so that's how I knew he was sleeping with other people. But also that you know, he wasn't probably being truthful with me. And the crazy thing was at the time. I was like there must be some weird fluke the test like I started. I was again like blaming myself. I remember asking a bunch of doctors life like are you sure, it's not another bacteria are you positive? And they were like, I remember this woman at this TD clinic was early she's taking my blood at UCSF. And she was like, Honey, I see this all the time. He's lying to you. Like, that's what I think is that tell you identify fuck boy. Yeah. There's easier ways that don't involve a mess. Have you ever do a player or encountered we're fallen for one? Hindsight. I think like the part that rung a little true to Leon's for me was the guy that I dated. That was always too busy. He was always working. He was always like, you know, like the last minute cancellations and like not really trying to make good on it either. Because it's like it's hard because I get people do work should happen. So it's like what's the line of them being like playing you versus not. I don't know. I don't know. He might have been seeing a shitload of women. I have no idea. I think really what it came down to though was that. He was keep Hughes break chrome me. He was keeping round. So what his other stuff was going on? I have no idea. But I do know that like it comes back like what you're going to stand for right? Like, I was like twenty five twenty six at the time. So it's like now, I I think a lot of our relationship is the sounds like a barrister thing was their Email like because we never saw each other. Because he was always so busy. But for some reason in my head, I justified that it made sense. Even though he literally worked in lived around the corner from me, some like what Lee could have easily gone and Golic coffee or anything. I we always think this. So people always use that as an excuse. I'm busy work, so busy, especially Scott. Oh my God. I weren't gonna start on you took a shit this morning. But the time we were able to get your shit or afternoon. Whatever your schedule is you are able to send out a tax mindset of texting while you were shitting while 'cause but if you're probably wiping through ten while you're shading you coulda done some more productive. But then I was really goes a step beyond that too. Because this guy was he was like sending emails. I mean, actually this was like so this is like before checks today was even as big. But anyways, like he was like he was like virtually communicating, but he wasn't making the effort like physically right like in person could have easily made time to meet up. But the reality was he didn't want to write did you ever? An instance Bill. The opposite. I feel like I heart of steel because of this one incident that happened to me in college where I was dating someone he made out with someone in front of me. And I went up and I slapped him, and he said why you're not my girlfriend. And in the next week. He told me that he loved me so ever since that incident in college. I've just been like if I heat if I see early symptoms. Yeah. Player hood, I will say no I will put a kabosh on it yet. But I think on the flip side is it's also harder for me to fall for someone because I'm constantly suspicion as the challenges like with Leon's episode to right? Like there are a lot of good guys that do have to go at work trips. Yeah. I know. I think it's also unfortunate that as women we have to actually think about like is this person actually going to work dry or they at their house.

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Texting me finger. They're in like New York in the actually in their apartments Francisco. It all comes down to the fact that we don't want to be the fool, right? We don't don't make a lot of me. Right. I'm a grown woman. Don't try to pull his over. Yeah. And I think. Kind of what you were saying you about you put you put the kabosh on them early on is what I have learned to do. So I wouldn't say I can necessarily detect or I even definitely determine whether someone's a player or not. But I'm outta point. Now, where if I don't feel happy or good in whatever relationship, I actually talked to them about it. But unlike make sure it's addressed and resolved in whichever way, remove remove you. But took me a lot of work. You know, a lot of therapy actually to even be able to do that. Totally. I think that actually like was what I took away from Leon's episode two is like I think I don't want to go in not trusting someone like I do wanna like lead with trust. And then obviously if you keep seeing signs over and over again, then you have to reevaluate that right? I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt starting off. But I think at the end of the day is like the message I took back regardless if it's a great guy with great intentions, and they're not true. To play. You is like if you're not fulfilled in your expressing that and you're still not being fulfilled, and that is up to the woman to walkaway. Yeah. And I I would add to that is I think it's really important. We actually have a conversation with the person was yes about it. Because I think that's easily people like whatever I'm just going to date a bunch of other people. No big deal like I'll get back to him. Whenever like both try to avoid the guy tation in that. No one's holding anyone accountable for their actions no-one understands the impact of their actions, and they just keep doing this. And I will say what I just said. I actually don't think this is just for women. I think. And that's your point alleys like if people aren't communicating and then like women are just like, well, he's not texting me back fast enough, or whatever I'm just gonna go find someone else in like play the game. And it's just like a circle is now the guys like what's going on? So after hearing Leon's episode, I'm guessing you had a little PTSD from it. Right. I with a guy like this. I've fallen for a guy like this. But you're at a much better place now. So let's talk about that. Like, we'll we're at breaking point to get you to where you are today. Yeah. So I guess the breaking point when I realized I needed to get professional help and therapy was on. I was dating someone who was a comedian is a comedian. And he decided he wanted to break up with me. But he had a comedy show before he was gonna come break up with me. And he got on stage in front of all my gosh. All her friends. Yeah. And he announced that he was going to break up with. Me my some committee a store. I don't know traumatizing the little so you part of his material. Yeah, in I actually was not present at the show was home. Oh my God. You weren't even there wasn't even there. But I lot of people I knew because I'm a I'm a comedian. So in the community. So a lot of people. I knew were there for months. Oh my God. It was so I was humiliated. You know, I would go out and people be like Allie, are you? Okay. And how Mike like I don't want to be talking about my break up with you. And it was kind of like the talk of seen for a while. And when he came to break up with me, he he said, you know, Allie. I did this. He told me it has a oh my God is he found out from him. I said, well, you know, you of all people should understand that comedy is therapy. Holy shit. And then I think that's when I was like, I think I. Yeah. I think that it goes back to the being a fool, I think that's really like. And I was thinking about this Leon's episode to is like I don't want to be thinking that leg. Everything's going. Well, and then they're like running that's a lie. Yeah. It was a lot. I was so taken. I had no idea. This was coming. I was like hit like in the yet to be have it put on the public stage. So, but I do this thing I think this is kind of like a personal challenge of mine is I blame myself for almost everything. So I'm sitting there being like why did I pick him? What is wrong with you? And I think that there was an issue within the people. I was picking I don't. But you know, also he was shitty. So it was like both. But so I actually started I I saw service and he said, why don't you try group therapy? Which is I don't I don't know. If you guys are too familiar with it. But it's basically me in five other six other men and women who are also working on their relationship issues with. Intimacy in friendships in parents, whatever it is. And we are we meet for an hour and a half every Wednesday with a therapist and interact with each other and talk about our interactions and through doing that is really how I learned how to be confident in how I feel because in that setting.

00:25:15 - 00:30:00

I'm able to get mad and I'm able to express myself, and I see that these people take what I'm saying into account in. They don't ditch me or leave me they're still there the next week guy. The he recommend group therapy as opposed to wanna one. We'll he runs a group. So I think he's really passionate about that approach. Apparently group therapy is really recommended for relationship issues in. That's almost all I've ever really had. And I have some friends who are therapists who all swear. By group therapy says already interested in it by also brought it up with him because I just felt so frustrated that I kept. I mean, this guy who dumped me on stage after the committee guy. So it was like how many you don't have much. It is though it's the cycle of like so many because I think it's like one bad experience. You can write off. Then when it keeps happening, even if they're not like huge things. Like, I know I've been there before to like you brought up what happened to as you were telling you, I just thought of like five other let's think about blocked mind, but it's every little thing builds on each other. And then when someone great comes around that there's this misunderstanding, or they are being genuine your mind is jumping to worst case scenario because you know, what in the past what's happening. Honestly, if my mind first of all I have yet to meet that person. But if my mind were to jump to worst case scenario that for me that would actually be like healthy thing for me because I'm so used to believing entrusting everything. I so you're like, okay. I recognize in myself. And now, I'm taking a step back. And I am actually trying to really see if this person is being legit. Yeah. That wouldn't that would actually be a good thing for which. We feel better. I mean, I admire that ability people who can do that. That's true. Because I guess like when you just like are taking it. You're not even thinking about that. And that's exactly what I did. And even during while I was in the group therapy initially for the first nine months, I was still in a with a player like it took me a long time to even get out of our relationship with him. This was a different man. And I remember one day I just cracked, and I was like I can't do this anymore. Don't talk to me. And he was t- still. He's still manipulated me after that. Because he yeah, he blocked me. Remember, he blocked me on Instagram in unfriendly on Facebook. Within would like my posts on. Oh my God. And then I go we'd so does he does he Madame you? It's like I still like wrapped up in this. I feel like a couple levels that we're talking about. I think. Yeah. Because there's like this like feeling and that was kind of like, my Email example. Right. It's like I just want to like kind of like get at you, it whatever small way. I can. Yeah. And then there's like the player. That's like you think that your exclusive where you think you're in a good place there sleeping with like twenty other people like what are some of the other experiences that either either one of you have had let's take a quick break and talk about what you're putting on in into your body. That is why I am so to finally discover Lola a female founded company, offering a line of organic cotton, tampons pads and liners and now they offer sex products to unlike other major brands Lola products are one hundred percent natural. And there's no mystery round what's going in. And on your body. The Lola personal lubricant features a mess Frey one click pump system, but a water base formula. Made with Allah. Vera and completely Hypo allergenic formulated to help me Tena healthy ph it's also gynecologist approved. Now, let's get to my favorite conduct Lois. Ultra-thin lubricated. Condoms are made up natural rubber latex in individually. Tested for contraception STI, protection, it's premium medical crates silicone oil lubricant, it's not just professional sounding. But also, it's exactly what makes the condom so good. I am all about them and my partner with deathly Greek for dateable listeners elite you give forty percent off all subscriptions, just visit my Lola dot com. That's spelled M Y L O L A, an inter- the code dateable spell, the AB when you subscribe now back to the show like what are some of the other experiences that either either one of you have been in here. I think you really touched on it. There's layers of not being offensive there's layers there's levels. So there's the player. But then there's also the guy who just doesn't know what he feels and doesn't know how to address it. And. Therefore seems like he's not being genuine with you. And none of those good situation. But there are definitely levels. So does it come down to just being genuine, and like trusting in your God that this is a genuine person, I think, it's just constant check-ins Yossi? So this is the thing.

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Julia was like, oh my God. What does this article you posted or that you print it out? So twelve questions will change your life. And that was put out by thought catalog and one of the questions was I have a tape right there. That's why I'm looking at it. One of the questions is like what do I have control over? So whether a guys in asshole, a player or nice guy, I have no control over that. That's just who he is independent Hawaii 'em yet. The only thing I have control over is how I can choose to feel this moment with him. Right. So instead of I think so much of dating is we're trying so hard trying to like solve this puzzle of the other person like mind read or trying to figure out what their intentions are seeing they fit into our lives and seeing they like. Us back. But at end of the day, we've no fucking control over that. At all all we have control over is how I feel this moment. And whether I believe he's a nice guy a player or not I feel at this minute insecure. So if I feel insecure I'm to figure out how I can change that. How can communicate that communicate? Yeah. Exactly. And that has nothing to do with what kind of person he? Yeah. It's all very independent, but you just have to constant check ins resolve as opposed to trying to win the other person. Because all those times you try to win those guys over more. I don't even know if you like these guys like we asked you about these players, you never once said, I really liked him. Or I was falling in love with him. Or I felt really good around him. It was more. Like I wanted him to let he was to me. It made me feel good. Yeah. Very one sided, it's interesting. Because like I asked like we just set like there's different layers. And you're basically saying it doesn't really make other. Really? No, no. I mean, it takes a lot of courage. I think it really sounds corny. But it takes so much courage to be able to sit with your feelings of pain or discomfort, especially to say them to someone else. And I think as far as your girlfriends go, I think that's another thing. Like, so many of my friends would try to justify the behavior. Oh my gosh. It's I yeah. And I think they're trying to make me feel. I know I know but how. What if they had just said that sounds really hard? Yeah. Like, you're really hurting. Yeah. That's a better way to work with a friend on it. I like that. But that is what media portrayal is look a sex in the city look at all the movies too. It's always girls sitting around gabbing and being each other's echo chamber of like, yeah, he's an asshole. It's terrible move onto the next person plenty of fish in the sea. But that actually doesn't solve the root of the problem. The root of the problem is how do I control my life right control, my emotions, I think support is another rate way of looking at this. We've been defining support in a very different way. And it's not the right way group therapy is support where you're just listening to others problems. I went to group therapy for couples counseling, and I found a so useful. Because I felt like I wasn't alone in what I was. No him. Yeah. I'd write holy child in that. But it was never other couples going being like, oh, yeah. You guys should break up or own. Yeah. You. Are you really on the right path? It's not about valid knows about listening learning that your voice can be heard. Yeah. Think that I mean, it's crazy as someone who's does comedy in writer. I didn't really know that because that's all internalized. Do. That's a good point. Because like I was I just like remember this conversation. I had with a close friend of mine in her husband now is like the most genuine amazing guy. Right. Like absolutely incredible. But she said even at the beginning of their relationship like she questioned things and she had to take a step back and be like is this my own shit. Or is it what he's doing? And I think a lot of times like guess there's times when it is someone not treating you. Well, and you need to recognize that. But then there's also times that you need to be like, okay, I've had tons of guys that have done this or like built years of experience, and I'm expecting this. And like how do you like figure out for yourself, which of the two that fall? Into. I think I might have an example that might help. I don't know if it answers it. But so after I ended things with the last player is with the Lincoln stalker. I just I was exhausted. Honestly, I couldn't keep doing it. So I I was really excited to try like my new skills on dating. So I started to naps, and I ended up meeting someone who she was actually an audience member of one of the shows, and we dated a bit. And he was really nice bread. A lot of literature was in Viking like all these things that I really liked to. But he kept putting up barriers to getting close. Like, remember, I went over there, and we we slept together. And then he said I want to sleep alone tonight. And I was like, oh, how come in even me just saying that is a big big deal because old alley would have been like, okay.

00:35:04 - 00:40:07

No problem yourself that. And you know, I said how come and he's like, oh, it's just like really intimate while to wake up next to someone. And I remember that really hurt. And I let it her, and I went home and we'd only been dating for few weeks. So I I kind of wanted to see where it was going to go like, I I was like, okay. That's one thing. That hurts. Let's see because there were when we were together we had a lot of fun. So it's like, let's see if it levels out. Maybe I actually knew he had had just gone out of something through mutual friends. Celtic maybe that's what's going on. So was still kind of doing that. But I it was the first time are they really sitting with this discomfort in letting myself feel it and yet he would sometimes not text me back ever when things when we would just communicate. But he owns that. He hated using his phone. So there were like kind of excuses embedded in his behavior that I was trying to understand, and I hang I think if these were done independently they would have been understandable. If they were done in the context of him like taking the out on a lot. Eighteen with me. But it was kind of like starting to build in then we hadn't seen each other for a few weeks, and we had planned to date until I go to a craft fair, and he had planned something for that morning before the date and then for that evening after the day and that really didn't sit well with me an ice. I texted him. Hey, kind of embalmed that we aren't spending more time together. We haven't seen each other for while in even me saying that that is a huge thing for me to not some poor. And he wrote back. Yeah. I don't want you to feel like I'm sitting you into a schedule. And that's I was like a really nice response. And I said, yeah, that's how I feel and then he didn't say anything and the next day. I was like, wow. This really doesn't feel good at all. And I called him and asked I I've just curious if you're really interested in dating because of what's been going on. And he's like Noah, I didn't really think about it until last night when you said something. Oh, but I don't think I wanted. I'm not interested. You don't I think the minuting? But yeah. Like, I think also. Much gets lost in tax the fattening up the phone and called him. Like, that's so like mature in like such a great way to handle it. And I mean, yeah, it was real that was like a really big that. He's a very great for me. Yeah. And you were defer like and savor argument. Well, not waste him after it's like oh guy. Oh, I like we were. I mean like when you talk to yet known or like very under. You're like trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. I'm just having open conversation. I think that's all you can do in that people react in show where they're at. Yeah. This is why when people say, oh, my gosh, we've been dating for so-and-so months or like X amount of years. The mount of time you've been together really doesn't. It's not a gauge for house room. Our relationship is because something like what you just said that situation could have dragged on for months. Here's literally if you didn't confront him because he probably was a lot of people are just happy to be right. And that's what I'm ship. I have someone to call. I can make plans before and after I see her. She doesn't have that many demand. Right. This could go on forever. And that could lead you to think you're in a relationship, and it's committed and even more of a waterfall of hurt that's about to. So I love that you were able to do a check in and say, this is how I feel how do you feel about us and only when someone's confronted with that? That's when they can tap into this is actually something, right, right? Which goes back to like the layer levels of like player in like, I don't I wouldn't call him a player. No. He was just confused. He was confused. Just. Yeah. He didn't know what he wanted. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of people in modern dating. And that's why I think like Leon's, I think he's the exception. I think that a lot of people are not as calculated. I think a lot of it comes off like that. Because they're just not sure what they're looking for. Yeah. Exactly. But I think the takeaway to us as women is it kind of does it matter like as long as it's if it's not what you're looking for. It's not making you happy. If it's making you like feel uneasy after even having conversations than that's when you really need to like evaluate it. Yeah. And I think another important thing to remember for me was to just be. Able to accept that. I wasn't happy in exceptional Hain. I was feeling in for my friends to accept it too. Because actually before I called him. I had called my friend. And I told her what was happening, and she's like you knew it when I just talked to him. Yeah. It doesn't sound like he's treating you the way you wanna be treated. Yeah. In. That's not typically the advice. I would get for most of my friends. I think that's great advice. Yeah. No. I thought it was great advice. And yeah, I think we as women need to encourage each other to do more of that is not play games or not like I hate the like just don't text him. And like, I know like that is I remember I had a friend gave me advice that I should just like become a little less available on like, no.

00:40:07 - 00:45:03

Because I don't want a guy that doesn't want me to be available. If that's the solution to making this work, then like, this isn't gonna work it's not a healthy relationship. So we should not be like playing those games at all. That's trying to change yourself in weird way. That's like I got so twisted because I just couldn't change myself enough. To like keep these guys around that. I didn't even know what shape was normal. Right. You lost herself. Yeah process. And I think the reality is like it's tough with relationships because it is merging two people together the have different thought processes like this guy example, he may not have even thought anything was wrong. Like he's like, oh, I'm seeing her today. Like, he's like not being like, I'm squeezing her, and blah, blah, blah. So I think having conversations of being like it feels like this like how are you coming at it? Then like, I mean in this case, obviously, it just brought up the he wasn't ready. But in other cases, it could just be like actually like we need to meet in the middle here. Right. That's not you want. It's not what I want. It's how do we make it work for both of us? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Because if he was really psyched about being with me, he would probably said something more like that. Right. Or maybe he's like today I've made these other plans, so I can't do them. But how about next Saturday all day is us like there's so many ways around it. Yeah. I do think I'm about to say something that I feel like a flood of emails are going to come in. But I do think there fundamental differences between men and women I grid. And I think like I said in previous episodes men think like twenty percent of the day and women percent. We're thinking about what's happening at five months. And they're thinking about what's happening in like five minutes if that right? So I think like sometimes we tend to man bash because we are using our own female ways of thinking about things when they just haven't caught up yet to those yachts. So I think it is important for women to do these check ins regularly of you are dating a hetero man because it gets their brain thinking about those things too. Because if you don't it might never get there. Like, I could sit idle for a really long time and not have to think about these. So I think we should. Be able to take them on this journey off our thoughts or a good guy may not even know that. This is a problem for you guys would not think that was a problem. No, you didn't express. It is white guys are always like, whoa. This chemo nowhere like. And we're like what you saw that. I gave you the silent treatment the other day. They're like what what I don't. I don't see that at all. But the problem is we've dealt with men like Leon. Yeah. And that's why we get ultra-defensive like the second. When a guy's not like making us like be number one priority. Where like are we getting played? I just don't wanna feel like we're getting played at the end of the day. Yeah. And I I would say I'm still in the probably more on the defensive side at this point. Which is why I haven't really found anyone. But you're getting there. The fact that you're having those coversations huge. Yeah. Yeah. Work. You're just doing work right now. So. Itself. And you shouldn't have someone like Leon set you back. I think for someone like Leon to pure owner show should give you you should feel happy that you no longer have to deal with the man like this. Yeah, I just have Hispanic see like telling him off. What would you say to him right now? I was his room. There's nothing you need to teach me Leon. Ten responsibility for your actions. College is for your behavior. But I think I will. Okay, I'm not defending. But I will say one thing that I do agree with what he was saying was that we can only control ourselves, and this is like good sacred takeaways, but I think like we can only control ourselves the like all the fuck boys all the players out there. Like all the good guys that are just clueless. Whatever may be like, we just need to know what we're looking for. And if how they can meet us if they can't meet us than we have to move on. We also have to let give him a chance to meet us. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. But that's a very good takeaway. And he did say that you do not yet. Non so many words, but he did say that I was more tactful say. Yeah. But he he also just wanted women to know that we just have to listen more getting listen to all the words being said, not just selectively listen to the one that's really imperative part. So I guess that is a segue to takeaways what are some of your takeaways from this conversation? I think what Allie has done is give us a playbook of how to navigate around this. Right. If you've dated the fuck boys in the past. How do you get past that to now stating your needs and putting yourself? I I I think one way to do that is this is the step.

00:45:03 - 00:50:00

We always forget is to sit with our thoughts. Anything like so many times? We're like, oh my gosh. I feel really bad about this. I'm gonna go out and hang out with my friends and get drunk or like go to this party because it on Tinder get onto to myself, and I wanna feel good. And then what happens when you get home? You feel even worse. Jazzy feel lonely. Earlier than ever. I think one we have to sit with our thoughts because most of the time we don't actually know how we're feeling. Yup. We have to take your temperature multiple times a day. Otherwise, you get lost. You have no idea what you want so step number one. Except in sit with your thoughts. Snap step. Number two. Is knowing what you need yet. Like, we can listen to other people all we want, but they their needs may be very different than our own needs. And so how do you communicate those needs, and it's not just in a relationship. So this is what this is what I used to get really annoyed by the people who go to restaurant and say I want the salad, but can you take out the shrimp, and can you outta love? Dash can you? Subtle hint. Dressing outside. And can you make sure the chickens a little bit warm? Okay. I like used to get really annoyed by that. But now, I could've Meyer people who know exactly what they want. And they know how to ask for it. Yep. So I was in an Uber pool the other day and my seat was really pushed really far forward. And I couldn't get it to go back. And I I was kicking myself because I'm always like coping an enduring so I just kept thinking, it's okay, just like ten more minutes of this ride. I can I can deal with it. I wish I would have said something or something about it. If we can practice. These little scenarios of asking for what we want in things that don't really matter. Then we're much better at it would ask him for things that Matt that is a really really good point of view. Yeah. I like you can only get to that point. If you really sit with your feelings. Yeah. Let yourself feel and practice in practice thing. Not an overnight. Now, I think that's actually my take. Away is like sometimes like I feel like I've done a lot of self work. Also, come a long way of not standing for behavior. But sometimes like something will happen in all kind of like think about it. I'm like, I feel anxious still I wish I just wouldn't feel anxious about the, but I think you Allie you brought up that like the fact that you're aware that you're feeling anxious. Like, the fact that you're like conscious of it. The fact that you're like articulating how you can deal with it that is huge progress. And I think sometimes at least for myself is I don't give myself enough credit for that progress. Like, the fact that you're even aware like when I was like totally unaware like was like blissfully ignorant, but just dumb, right? So at least like you now know how you're feeling what to do about it and steps to take. I think my other key. Takeaway is just again, it goes back to understanding yourself. And what you're looking for in how much of this is coming from your past versus the person. Yeah. Like, how do you articulate again in a kind way that's not accusatory or anything? Like that. But just open that dialogue. And then like see where someone is from that dialogue before making acquisitions in your head about things that someone from ten years ago may have like Roz to like, we I guess it's like it's tough. Because it's like you wanna go in giving someone trust in. You don't wanna go in bringing your baggage? But you also need like protect your heart in a way to. Yeah. And it goes with friendship as well. It's not just romantic relationships. Like, I always so surprised by how we're able to communicate to our friends. Yes, how we communicate to significant others. Right. Why is there such a barrier is no difference? These are still people that matter. How doesn't matter what kind of relationship. It's important to say something, I I think that's hard to threatens to for me. Yep. And I think not because we think of confrontation such a bad thing. But I think it doesn't have to be like I've recently had conversations, and I feel like it brought me closer to someone by having those things. I was like potentially scared to bring up because I think especially as we're navigating new relationships were always worried that like things will end if we bring up too much yet. I think the point is if we do, and it ends, it's it's not a bad thing. It's like we figured it out earlier like you were saying you a like just because things went on for six months or two years that doesn't have any like meaning all of how great your relationship is this poet need. He he's writing essays about teaching undergraduates. And he said, I try to tell them your life matters, you matter, and I think that's something that's really important to remember your experiences, your feelings, they are important. Absolutely that and you control your narrative your life. These people shouldn't affect that of active.

00:50:00 - 00:55:04

You are I think the last thing to pivot off of that is like we've talked about how like pass people build into your current experience. But there is a positive side to that too. Like, I think like like after you. Brought up like can you give an experience? Now, I've like ten circling in my mind, but some of those people I'm like, you know, I don't actually have ill-will to anymore. Like, I did at the time was pretty shitty. I've had people make out other people in front of me as well. Really? Yeah. How that happened twice? I think I blocked it out of my memory. But. Now, it's happened. I mean, but anyways, I think at this point it's taught me what L never ever stand for again. Right. And I think the guys that I am with now would never do that. Because like at a sign of that like done, right right seriously. My takeaway is use a condom guys. Use a condom don't get flooding. Media. In your bed. I think point it's what they don't tell you and sex, Ed when you're a sixth grade. No, especially from someone that has not given anything. Sexually transmitted Arthur heinous, shall we? Go to question of the day. Yeah. Let's do a question of the day. This one comes from Keith. He says the girl I was dating recently broke up with me because she said I wasn't making her feel like a priority. When that didn't make her feel good. I really liked her. But had other plans with friends and wasn't trying to offend her. She told me things came up for her because of the past guys, she dated string her along and was afraid of getting hurt. Again. How do I show her not a player? But rather just a guy that does have other people in commitments in his life. We've only been dating for three months if that provides more context to Newton alley answer it you could up kidney. Yeah. I think if he's actually said these words to her. But I think that communicating exactly that would be really helpful in asking her. How can I show you? I'm committed to you. What does that look like Bishop takeaway, I don't know why wouldn't think of it? But I think what you said earlier. About just someone articulating like them just being like, you said about the guy from New York when they give you committeea that him just because that's how ever- he's gonna be forever. Have no other identified besides that. But like if he had just been like, hey, my feelings changed or like the distances too tough or looking for someone close. But like something that was honest like I think that goes a long way in a hundred on us. Yeah. And I think a lot of times men aren't trying to hurt women, but they feel like by not being honest. It will not hurt them as much. I think we to speak for all women personally. I would much rather someone just be honest. So I can move forward. Yeah. Like give you that like glimmer of hope or whatever. So I think also again like this. Keep example, like this comes down to everything we've talked about just having a conversation. Absolutely. And he's trying to blame himself. Like, oh, what can I do? What should I do when she said, she actually has these issues with herself. So it's not just his fall. No. So why not? Yeah. Create a dialogue about what she would really want. A greater night. 'cause that's what I learned in couples counseling. Everything you do with your significant other is a negotiation. It's a constant association. We are just trying to mesh to lives together and trying to make that work. So in Keith scenario instead of telling people who don't know who your girlfriend is or who this girl is about your situation. I think you should have a conversation with their obviously state like what you've told us, but also negotiate like half an action plan. How 'bout I have dedicated time for you place a week with that satisfy your needs, right? She can come back and say I would prefer three days where I prefer like a whole weekend. Then you guys can have some starting point negotiate back and forth. So both of your needs are met. Right. And I think like she wasn't the one that wrote in, but I'll give her advice. But I think like. And case keep this play in all of us looking guy. Just kidding. But like I think this comes back to like bringing the past in. And I think it's great that she can be vulnerable and recognize it and again like instead of necessarily pulling the cord with Keith. 'cause like again, I feel like Keith probably thought like I'm hanging out with her. I'm hanging out with my friends like ones in the problem. So it's like having that conversation opposed to the first sign of things not working out exit going and trying to find someone else because I guarantee is going to happen again to whoever she finds next yet. And she's just going to have to learn to like voice it in have that discussion with someone because people have friends, and if they don't have friends that's a nother problem. Yeah. And Keith instead of trying to show her you're not a player. Why don't you think about do you actually want to be in a relationship? Maybe like you just you'd like her company like being around her.

00:55:04 - 00:58:11

But maybe you don't actually wanna make her priority, and that's okay too. And then you have to communicate that to her also, communicate communicate communicate. He's a condom. Our? On that don't date a comedian. Hey, we'll talk about your break-up wants to. Good material. But Allie thank you so much for first of all writing to us about Leon's episode. But also telling us about your journey. This is not an easy journey to go through to go from fuck boys in for some you guys. I know you date fuck girls to to go from them mindset of like, insecurity constantly trying to mold yourself for someone else. To now finding standing on your two feet, and like being really strong in who you are communicating your your needs. That's a really tough process yet. It's a it's work on a daily basis. So we really are appreciative of. Yeah. Coming and sharing your story for our listeners, we love to hear your journey to and it's not just about even if you haven't come to where alleys is now hurt where she is in own journey. Maybe you're like midway through. Maybe you're in the trenches. Maybe you're figuring things out. That's what we want to talk about. Come on our show, and let's figure shit out together not in this alone. And that's we're hoping that that really comes across one. You're not in this alone in to his we wanna provide all these different perspectives. So we can crowd source ways of getting through the trenches of dating. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Cool. Also, just we love to have guests on her show. The dating story maybe related calamity a- or you're the comedian. That's pull that shit. Oh four. He loved to have you on her show. So we can tell you what's up. Okay on we're going to wrap this up. Stay date of all your action item for this week is to work on verbalizing your needs start small. Maybe you're entree came out slightly wrong. Instead of thinking, it's not a big deal change, your mindset to what is it that I need right now. If what you need the right entree ask for it. Maybe you have a friend who's constantly checking his phone while he's talking to you. Instead of letting him be express your knee for him to respect your time. Working verbalizing your needs on a daily basis. We'll build a great foundation for doing the same in relationships. Want to continue the conversation. I tag any post with hashtag stay dateable, then head on over to our website dateable podcasts dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching services with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze. Is an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums to connect with us. Find dateable podcasts on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. We're also downloadable on Spotify. I teams and other podcasts platforms your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review on and most importantly, remember to stay dateable.