Jenna Birch, the author of 'The Love Gap', shares her research about why men don’t always pursue the women they claim they want. We discuss if it’s timing or the person, the differences between men and women, and why modern day romance isn’t always so linear.
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Season 8 Episode 18: The Love Gap
00:00:00 - 00:05:19
The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of dateable as show all about modern dating. I want to talk about timing because we always ask this question is it the right person? Or is it the right time? So we have a very special guest here with us. Her name's Jenna. She wrote a book called the love gap. Do you wanna say hi, before we introduce gangwar? I'm so thrilled to be here. This is going to be really fun. So before I give will introduction about you. I just wanted to say like I've talked about this before when I'm walking down the street. I don't see or hear anything. I'm just like in my own little world. I'm just like very much of a Daydreamer and Juliet experienced this the other day. I did. When I was walking down the street, I was listening to my music. I was like all my way to a bar class and I got a text from her. She's like you literally just passed me on the street and didn't. And I was screaming your name Julius and I just gave up. So we're getting out with this. Is that one? Don't be offended if you call my name on the street, and I don't respond to you. But to is I often think about this. Right. If I was looking for a Julie, like person on the street when I'm walking, I might have seen her. But because I wasn't in that mindset of looking even she passed me even maybe even made I contact, I still didn't see her and it really made me think of this million dollar question isn't finding the right person. Or is it the right time? Yeah. Let's get right into it. She is twenty six years old, originally from a small town in Michigan. Currently lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And she is in a monogamous relationship. She is the author of the love gap, a research based guide to navigating the newest dating phenomenon beloved gap, which she defines as a reason. Why men don't always pursue the women. They claim to want. She's also a long time health and lifestyle journalists or work has appeared in print and online publications including cosmos, self RIC Lehrer psychology today, having to post man repel in Yahoo among many others. So Geno, what inspired for of all your twenty six are you? Sure. Float away. Right. I always tell people I'm like a forty five year old trapped in a twenty six year old's body. I read the book and I was not expecting twenty. Someone told me you should take a vice from a twenty six year old I would have been like get the fuck out. But I am so into what you're saying here, the love gap, I believe in it. So when's fire due to write this book? Yes, I've always been sort of, I guess, fascinated by the things that I don't fully understand about dating it in a lot of that has to do with research that, I encounter and then real life, phenomena it. And I'm very interested in things. Like, do we always choose the things we claimed wont, I and I think that that's something that I was really inspired by, especially after into dozen fifteen. There was like several pieces research that came out in a wad of women's magazines had really publicized them pretty heavily in it, just like wasn't ringing true deep down in terms of the things that I was seeing in real life. So I explained those things in the essence of it is, you know, do men always choose, these smart successful brilliant modern day, women. They claim to want his all those friends that I had in all the people that I would encounter, like a lot of them did not fit this mold of e e, you know, those were the ones that seem to have these big problems all the time. And they had all the rest. Of their life together, except like this one thing, I couldn't figure out how to navigate it. It's on all my girls. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like really driven every other area. They think like if there's a way I'll find it, and that's the beautiful part of dating is that you think, in the beginning that you can like concrete. Yeah. Like all figure it out. And I find the shortcut to get what I want and the answer. It's just it's not. Hey, you finding that men were like seeing those characteristics of what they were looking for a sing the, the funny thing was in reality. It just didn't kind of match up in terms of like wire all these women single author like the modern daydream girl. So I would go out and kind of explore and I figured, you know, I'm just gonna start throwing the question out there to man. And, and I swear, I was like, really casual? I was just like well, like, what are you looking for, like, kind of, like run at it from that way, in the all listed the same exact things like smart successful ambitious like independent, like all this stuff that he you know, they're supposed to say very PC to do? And it was like, okay, so I just like tallied all this information. But when you. Really start digging with them. And you really start actually, like, taking part what they actually choose. Yeah. And the patterns that they had in real life like it didn't add up. And they, they didn't even realize it. I don't think like why am I not choosing the things that I think I want? And why am I pushing certain people way like they would have all these, like very interesting coping mechanisms for a lot of the gender dynamics in the shifts that we've seen in our culture? And there's this idea with dating apps to that there are so many infinite options, you can find the person that makes you feel perfectly comfortable like there's like the Goldilocks effect for dating, right? Like, not too ambitious just emphasis that no not too smart.
00:05:19 - 00:10:05
Smart enough all that. So as someone that also does research, I'm very interested in your methodology like fine these people what did you ask them all of that? Yeah. So it was really interesting because I had to get like a certain subset and was definitely like career oriented men and women. They were not like the types to go to the suburbs, and kind of settled down. So I- tapped like all my different populations around the country. Major metropolitan areas and have them kind of, you know, send out a call to people that they knew people, they thought really fit the Bill. The I really wanted to get like a pretty good lay of the land for the United States in get those differ. Metropolitan areas those rare, I saw a lot of these same issues, whether it's like close to a college town, or like you know, actual big city like for NYC, but I really used it by, like third, and fourth degree connections in the word got out, like I, I had way more interviews than I would've ever conducted people love law. So here we are trying to thought like I'll get like a free coaching session. I'm like, that's not really what I do kind of, but we really informal and I think that was the beautiful part of it because I was really approaching it from a research based, but also like in vice based respective trying to find out things. It was much more interactive conversational interview that that was really great in that I got to know them all on such a personal left. So how many people did you end up talking to it was around one hundred twenty while interviews in the NFL out of interviews? Can Can you you know? know? My schedule was owned by like everyone like normal like these are research, like tech companies you really only talk like five people before you. Start seeing patterns one hundred twenty. Oh, yeah. For sure. Doesn't visit everybody thinks her situation is unique something totally different. It's a city, they're in or the pedigree that they have all these issues. But then I'm sure you saw all the patterns across the board. Total has the love gap. That's of it is why men don't choose the women. They claim to want and that was kind of the thesis in the front from which I explored in really dove into like some of the bigger phenomena. But the love gap is I think we see it all the time. And I asked of it is timing, and I think that, that was something that was never fully explored when I came of age in relationship advice, world guy would always here in see especially in like he's just not that intimate tally. That if he was not, like he'll just he'll come dry like love com. Yeah. And that's like what my mom and grandma used to tell me like, you know, if it's the right person, like everything will just work out in this magical fairytale and that supernova lineal and it's not it's just not how things happen, like I found out through a lot of the people that I. Interview that the right person could have like smack them in the face, and they would have never known running into Julie, on the street center Goan exactly it was very much that affect. So you have this notion of the end goal woman in your book, new elaborate a little more on that. Yeah. So I think the best part of the angle woman is it is like an archetype the other men in my book, and in there are a lot of different angles for different types of people. But for a specific guy, especially it was that person that he like, really did want the person that he actively knew he wanted or maybe like the most aspirational woman that he could possibly think of and a lot of them were the smart successful ambitious like super independent, like, modern daydream girls. It's what they said, very often they often didn't feel big. They were in the place to maintain a relationship that they felt we're going to be like this big thing like a long term, meaning until they get to the end goal woman. Are they in this? Interim goal woman. Getting their shit in order, like, what are they doing this? How do I. Probably we all have been a certain degree. I think that everybody's Engel is like slightly different. And that's like the crazy thing, but that they can't actually maintain the relationship that the actually want with this person. And I think when they see it potentially being long-term, or they realized that, that's what you want expect in, it would naturally go in that direction. That's when I started seeing like Manhattan, all different kinds of ways to throw barriers of. Saying even if they met their end goal woman. Yeah, I waited. They're ready for her is it's not going this fiftieth actually chill debate, right? Like is the I'm not ready out or actually charity here this for my guy friends a lot. They will say on during this role she's great. She's everything I thought I wanted. But something is missing. So you're saying that something missing is not necessarily on the woman's part now. Buy from them, the men sometimes they can be. And I think the interesting part to realize in terms of the thing that is missing. I think that we ought to gather like enough data in this massive like playing field right now to know actually that we're sure of what we want, and that we're sure that we can make that like major commitment.
00:10:05 - 00:15:03
And so that's why you see a lot of this delay in commitment. It's not just like careers taking place. But also, there is this big epic playing field that we all have to go experience to be sure of what we want it and also feel like we're in the place to maintain something that is more serious. It could be the right person in the wrong. Time. And that is something that I was never told that message, but I saw that so often in my book, I there's one chapter that highlights like all these couples of the one who took like forever to commit in. That's like Elliott. Yeah, all of them are married now. And that's not everybody's goal but they were all these like in a very long-term relationship like five plus years, where they finally got together, inmate at work, even though at the beginning, they didn't really know that they can do that. And they often like push the person away, broke up with them sometimes like completely it's very interesting because I think that we'll see a lot more longer timelines to commitment and a lot more broken timelines the bowl from your past may come back. We'll do that. That was like fifty percent of couples break up at least once a, yeah, like that's actually way more do think I think I think like it will just bring up once before they get back together. Yes. Exactly. Get. So these couples stories that met whatever it was didn't work out years later. Whatever timeframe, they get that together. What were some of the reasons why they couldn't move forward at that stage barrier. Yeah. One of them had a lot of baggage from childhood really didn't even really know how to articulate love. And so that was one of one of the reasons why I don't think he was able to commit for such a long time. There's one that really felt like he had to start his career and he felt like it was too serious. Like he couldn't manage both. And I mean, oftentimes even when our careers and flex Rico through these different transitional periods. Like we really don't feel like we can give you know, energy to both facets of our lives. And that's something that people down play. It's just they're both really big things that. Yeah. Interested hours. I feel like women have. No, I don't know. I'd be not all women, but I feel like a lot times. Women can meet Vivey women can multitask, better. Yeah. But I feel like if a woman was added snafu of her career come up. It had met this amazing guy. She wouldn't necessarily let him go. Yeah, I see time after time in not reacted the same way. I think it's we're being socialized, where we think if a woman is sort of unclear about her career path men when judge us, yeah. As opposed to a man, who was like employees or men feeling, like they have to provide rain stays. Feel like they will able to like live up to this. Right. But I found was like, no matter how woke you think you are still such these ingrained like gender roles than people would it would feelings I about. But not really able to articulate it for quite a while 'til they really dug into it, and we're like, yeah, I really did feel like I needed to be a, breadwinner, I needed to make a certain amount of money needed to, like, you know, nowhere was headed for the next five years. I think that, especially with men like the even there's recent research that shows that, that is still the pressure that we place on men is having like career in order in ambition. In financial stability like those were still the two major pressures whereas women feel for around attractiveness. It's such level things that we still as society to monitor on, it's hard to unravel in on tangle unlearn all of that. I mean, I think a lot of ways for women like their gender role is much more fluid. And I think we've had things open up to us at a faster rate than men, just in terms of like we're trying to move up into reverse like that way. And have a mix of masculine. Feminine, quote unquote goals in men still don't have the same access to that leg more emotional saw side realm. And I saw it a lot in mental articulate that to me. And it was like very apparent like how little they told their partners about the things that they were actually feeling they were afraid of with their partners with think your often times. They would they would talk about their partner, like I don't want them to know that, oh, since two Weiss of people break it off for us down. So I think sometimes has a woman when this is happening because I've personally been there before when this has happened in. It's like you're thinking in your head. You're like, why can't is person just work with me? Right. Exile. They pushing the away, when things are getting hard, and you're basically saying, they kinda wanna shield the women. Yeah, I mean to a certain extent. Yeah. If they're struggling with it in their also having an exciting about it don't want to bring that put that on a partner, I still feel like they don't have the same. They they're not able to depend in the way that I think women do. And I've been reading some things on, like I thought a story on psychology today, come up about that lane. Why can't? Men be as dependent as women in, like they're you know low moments. Right. It's not the same access that we're providing men and that was something that, like I didn't really think about going into this, like, what would their emotional space be? Why do they say? Lone wolf ri- nominee men is out. Tom in grow up with community. We create communities than we talk to our girlfriends than men. Don't like they have to fix everything on their own. Yeah. Host, who has a team whereas totally Mata pressurized.
00:15:03 - 00:20:02
So you're saying it's not just shielding is just more of the emotional capacity to work with a partner. Yeah. I think it's a mix and the emotional capacity to sometimes like they don't know how to articulate like women have been taught like in our social circles in from the games. We play from the timer children to the way that we relate to other women. We've been taught to articulate our emotions from the time, we are young men have not been taught that same thing at a love the study that they did about, like even the emotional language that like fathers with their daughters versus. Like the chief base language that fathers use with their sons like I'm proud of you and union, like so rate like, accomplishment based, unlike women they're like more with their daughters. They're much more like here's like a full range of emotional spectrum there, just a treat them differently. And I don't even think we realized this in a lot of ways, so as culture, like I wanna keep having these discussions, so that people can understand, like, no matter how far you've come in. Intellectually understand that you can be like many things in a mix of Mexican feminine. We still don't always afford that people on an individual level where people just don't like tap into that. Yeah. I've been subconsciously brought up service nationalize bring something from the back to the forefront of your mind. So I guess like out of like all the reasons why men weren't ready for this angle, women. What we're like the top ones that you saw through your interviews says, so definitely like career with one, I also think that there is a lot of social pressure sometimes to date around when was like, not everyone is cut out for that not everyone wants to do that. But there is a lot of pressure early on to be like, did you sample the field? Are you sure you're ready? Like there's social pressure in groups in that pack mentality to especially, like, if most of your friends are single like that's another component that can sort of crowd that space like fear of missing out. Yeah. Foam is, is a big one even the like the fear of foam. Oh, isn't that? Why is my phone Logan develop later because I didn't want to feel that. Yeah, I wanna put myself in that position that I didn't feel the foam. Oh, it in most transaction was like transition was a big one. So if they thought that they were gonna move or they thought they were gonna change crew pass go back to school like whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. Blends aren't very transitional like acid generation. So it's just one heels, and even to the to some extent, like, the, the younger jenex, too, I think that they've been taught to explore a little bit. And sometimes things don't settle out until the thirties. And so that's a barrier to commitment for a lot of people. So how do you know when someone? Ready to settle? I think that like the biggest thing I learned. Like, like people will tell you who they are. And that's something we do the, the great selective listening that we hear what we wanna hear someone lists five things about themselves for of them are are right flags. And then one of them is good. But we listened to the one that's good. Out. You know that somebody's ready when they're like very consistent with you. I think that that was like one of the major things that I saw like people that are really interested in a relationship with you are not going to give you reasons to doubt, their forthcoming and honest, like they're not a basic they're not dropping off the map for long periods of time, which is very common in the doing seen somebody that's concerned for your feelings. It's like an a ABI much different. And even with those external criteria to I think it's really important that you take a look at someone's life. If they are exhibiting symptoms of being really inconsistent. It'd be like, are they in transition? Are they naming around? Why have signs that they're doing that? Like people will have signs, like they'll see them active on lake their online dating profile, you know, kind of like rationalize it a lot of us do. But, like look at the signs at they're like, in transition that they're not ready to settle down in like, really, really pay attention and people will tell you who they are. So I liked as a researcher, that you pulled out maslow's hierarchy of needs calling out the Syariah, because you kind of go little deeper into that in like how you view. Men and women navigating that. Yeah, I think that that's what we go back to talking about women being there better multitaskers in general. So I see women like very much able to fulfill a lot of needs at once and work on different segments of their life at one time, whereas men, and this is something Helen Fisher kinda discusses in her idea of like men are linear, thinkers, and women are web thinkers women kind of bounce around in Mendi one step at a time. So, like if you've ever noticed it's kind of a joke, I have with my boyfriend, like if I text him like three things he will respond to the last one only yet. One at a time to get one answer. And then go to the next answer just completely you lose it. But yes, see that with a lot of men in their patterns. They focus on one area at a time. So oftentimes like career they've been taught like comes before, you know, say finding a relationship like you gotta, you don't put the carpet for the horse, so they won't work on that often in before that schools. It's like one step at a time. So they're like, really active in one realm. I found times that they weren't really looking for a relationship in the same way that would be external criteria. Like you know, they were really like busy in school or they were trying to change careers.
00:20:02 - 00:25:03
They were traveling bunch, like whatever it was. There are so many different facets of the hierarchy that it makes sense that, that, that, that Sex's are a little bit different even in the way that we're socialized. I think that women are have also been given more access to dislike explore more realms at different times. Whereas like men seem to attack things in a more linear matter. You know what I find with myself is that when I'm with a partner that I feel? Will powered by than I feel more empowered in my career, and I feel like I could do more. Yeah, because I'm with some really supports me. Yeah. But it's the opposite for men. Is that they need to get the career shit together before they can fully give to someone else? Yeah. Or they really definitely have to grow to the place for the understand that they're going to there's going to be Evan flow in that place. New like you know, they have to have the perception that I career is going to go through its ups and downs. And sometimes it will be a shit show and other times it will be great, but, you know, they have to learn that understanding, I think, women more, intuitively understand that they're going to be ebbs and flows. But, like, really, that's the sign of like the best partner for these modern day people or that people that help you grow people that make you feel like more. So I remember on sex the city there is like the Haxhi lane theory. So like weathermen is ready. He is on now. They'll probably be like the Uber theory or housing. So I guess, like if men do meet this woman angle woman in, they are not ready. What were you finding that they were doing in these situations? I mean, to a lot of times it was distancing or disappearing or breaking up. So I kind of described it in, like three different ways. Some men would kind of like they would do a soft approach. They kind of stay in orbit, but they went actually, like, dive in and pursue somebody like that, if they'd bet like someone that they were really interested in it would be those people that everyone would think you have something going on. But like they weren't really making a move in. No, you didn't know what was going on. Like we've all those. I would just think they weren't into me. Yeah. No, not the end goal that they were not ready for. Yeah. No, it's really funny. Sometimes they're like I'm gonna I'm gonna push play when I'm ready. I had met that we're actually like I met this great girl. I'm not ready. So I'm going to stay in her life, and I'm not gonna go full force and be your boyfriend. Yeah. And what's funny is like the minute. I put those galleys out into the world like I had I went to my literary agents office in one of the agents there was like, oh, my God, I'm always in all boyfriend. He's I realize. Doing that. But like that's like exclusively. My strategy is like I'm like, one day, one of these is gonna pan out when like I'm ready ohi, and I and it was really funny, because like that is just almost like a it's like this very optimistic theory. But like I'm gonna push play when I'm ready but I'm not gonna screwed up now. I'm gonna wait. I'm so yeah. That would happen very often some of them their strategy was just gonna disappear. I'm gonna cut it off break it off or dislike actually ghost that would happen, sometimes if they were crazy wealthy, girl, sometimes yeah, they'd be like this is not my moment. I'm one of my favorite stories about is about this guy who broke up with his college via heart who he knew as the one the whole time. And he's like, damn it like I know she's the wind like he's he was very clear. It was actually, so this was not backstory put in the book, but they're actually two best friends from the same college in they're still together with their long term partners to, to this day. But they broke out for like four to five years in the middle because like these two guys they had to go start their career in. They knew the whole time, and they both like meet a joint pack really, we're gonna make these phone. Calls in. We're going to get back in touch later, when they're how it's really bizarre because you're like that sounds so crazy. But these things were actual real stories that people did in his married together, launcher partnership for frayed that, like they would meet someone else off the market. Like that's what I would think. That probably would happen to, again other relationships you just like a sume boomerang, new just come back. Yeah. And that's what's funny. Like, sometimes they did have they did have long term relationships in even in the middle there. But they're like, like, I remember one of the guys I talked to he's like, yeah, he's like, I did have a long term relationship, but in the back of his mind, he's like it did not compare to this person. And I always knew that I think that they kind of have in the back of their mind. I'm going to screw it up now. So I'd rather like not do something the person. And then, like completely like ruin your everything for them sour the whole relationship. So did you stay any examples of someone sabotaging a relationship because they weren't ready for it because I feel that in don's. Yeah. Yeah. Just like serious. I'm gonna do something really fucked. Yeah. There is like a lot of people that would come to me with that kind of theory about themselves, to, like my main guy, do this, or I think I choose to date, people that are not right, for me, because of met people that I think are, and I can't push play on one person was like why. No, the person I wanna be with. She does XYZ. She not like real goals in happy's in like self improvement is like at the forefront. But right now, I just want to like, drink wine on the rooftop, and watch game of thrones of somebody. You can do all those things.
00:25:04 - 00:30:00
Yeah, but it's just kind of funny. How like they're so did that. In there like this was the aspirational version that I'm working towards. But, like I know him not there, yet the way someone described it was it has to be like, exact same place in your life. That's like the only way you can function lightning properly a new, they would interrelationship with someone that wanted to force them, along that development path even faster that was gonna make them even more uncomfortable to because it would just bring to lighthouse mush. They weren't there. Yeah, yeah. And they also ready yet, stubborn linked also doesn't want to be shoved, like I wanna move at my own pace to get there. So this is so interesting because if I was the girl the situation like how do you know if they're like, playing the long game or they're just not that into like, if someone breaks up with you, like how would, you know, I think you really can't know, but you have to like, make bold moves in the big thing that I've said in a lot of things you have to act like you only get the information that you're given, but you have to act like you're moving forward. No matter what, like just the big thing, if someone if you're stopping your life for someone just to wait, like that's never going to end up. In the long term, you're gonna resent the whole situation. So like he moving forward. And if that person eventually catches up with you or like you intersect somewhere in the future. That's fine. But like my big thing for people was like, never stop your life. So for the women you talk to did or did you talk to women to we? Okay. Yeah. For the women that you interviewed did they like date other people like they weren't trying even the yeah the one that broke up that I just mentioned like a few minutes ago. I remember her vividly because when she got that phone call out of the blue from her acts like it was always you. You're always launch. She's like this is not alone. Moment for me. I was living it up. Like having a great time in New York. I was in a new relationship in. She's like I didn't take it seriously. Oh, she just kind of like was like, okay like in kept up in in. He like kept up with her, which she described it was like it was like quarterly emails like with me like every few months you like this now. Yeah. Not too much 'cause you're still not ready. But you don't want not untiring on she. She she'd never met up with him until after she broke up with the person. She's like a really didn't sperm. I break up at all. But she said, after I did break up it was just like that doing a lot of reflecting on your life in thinking like this person, like made me better when I was with him. Like I always felt like I was more uplifted like he was happier like we balanced each other. Well, like I liked what we were together, and I have to see if it still there like eventually, that curiosity for one out. But, like he had to put in the pursuing effort afterwards because no longer was easy in it could have gone the wrong way like she was not immediately jumping at that took like another year, I think for them to actually, like have a real conversation about it. So not to be super bass. Think about this. But this would never work the other way around girl came back into next way. Friends life and was like, you're always the one, I have been thinking about you, he'd be like your fucking psycho. Now, I like totally could have into it depends if the girl broke up with him in leg he was devastated about it, and she came back to him, and then he lowered around while he had a girlfriend, not hovered. I think the three every quarterly check in is a chronic attacks tear in there. How're you doing? Like, you know, I'm gonna be in town for business. You wanna get a coffee like it road be like happy birthday. Like there was some reason to check in every time in and I don't really know. I think that sometimes you do hear about story river souls, and I've heard every nature of that story it is, like, there are sometimes that rules, a reverse by think you're right in that it is more familiar for, like, guys to break up in comeback think are more forgiving overall and I think also like we touched, but earlier women are hardwired different from the starts getting met that great person majority again. There's always like, yeah, he says they may have just stayed with it. Multitask. Thank for a lotta times with breakup. I think for Manet's EKO. And sometimes it's just like up break up this person dropped me in in now. She thinks she's like ready. I think like the ego driven version is just like icing. I win y like I think a lot of men would be like less receptive to it for that reason I find that one of my favorite quotes from my book with someone who's like. Oh, yeah. Whole chapters can be written on just the mail. Go alone. You know, and how that impacts our decision making books like she's just not that to you and stuff are he's just. Do and like those ones that have taught women that you're cheer point earlier, like if he was that into you, he would do anything for you. Yes. Women's ego come into it. It's time for break, so we can talk about your summer vacation for me. The best part about vacation planning is getting new outfits and L. We can all sort our summers off right with breezy tops and Q swimsuit from clock. 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00:30:00 - 00:35:03
Just go to Motte cloth dot com and enter the code dateable at checkout. This offer is valid for one time use only and expires on October fifth twenty nineteenth again to Emo. D. C L, O T, H dot com and enter the code the AB. For fifteen percent off your purchase of a hundred dollars or more. Now back to the show is women's ego, commit to it. I think women women have ego, but I think we're more forgiving raw. Yeah. We're, we're able to like is like, really with anyone. Yeah. Like you know what? I'm not going to let this like, hold. My happiness back like men would be ego would come. I, I actually what's really funny about this. Is that one women are that are letting things go a to? I've never heard of a girl say I met the sky he is definitely the one. He is dead. A not letting this go. He's definitely the one in years later still feel the same way women are also just bad. Just letting go that idea just like that's it. Right. Because we have that idea in the beginning. And then we talk it over and over. We it over it. Right. I think men because their lack of communication and talking about it, they like hold onto an idea made only long time. And sometimes it is like I, I do see women women have to be like nurtured over time, our feelings. About a relationship in how in essence lows like a foreign happy. Like, I think women are women. Execute light two-thirds of Ray cups, like actually, if you will in statistical numbers, and I think a lot of those come later on from those romantic relationships are not really started as that never got off the ground. These long term relationships out of it is because like if we're not feeling nurtured like we're over it. But like men, once they're like in, it's like hard committed. I what I found there really in like they've made that choice like they're in, but they're very static in the way they think about after that. It is like a fixed. Long-term relationship. Women are like you gotta keep gonna keep wooing me women, like more open to the initial Iliad off round to get the guy to get off the ground. But I totally agree with you. Yeah. They're in usually is the woman that I think it's like more divorces are sheet by women. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely that the long term relationships, I think, women are the ones to walkway more frequently in on this, because like we expect our emotions to be consistently nurtured in for not being treated well. We're like we don't perceive that the love is there in the same way, and then we're like, okay, this is dying, like, where, I think, men commit harder to that. And I think part of it is I have that I it does it goes on. Yeah. Totally just get more police with. Yeah. And I think women are more aware that way. How do you explain this scenario? Sorry. Good luck Chuck effect. You've heard the story before someone's always in long term relationships with people, and they break up. And then the guy and set marrying the very next girl he dates, and it's patterns. What would you say to women who are constantly, the glut Kono Lewis Cheryl, Cheryl quitting the new term interesting? It's very interesting because I heard a lot less of the stories in the modern world up. I didn't hear that, that as much I think it's because people are like less willing to settle. But I do think that there is a component of some of those relationships being sometimes like that. The timing really is wrong in, like they just caught like the edge of that. And I think like sometimes women also want to, like, nurture men through these times, and then they end up dropping them because they're still not ready. Yeah, but they got like a wad of what they needed out of their relationship. And so they come out better like the men do, but, like women kinda get leached in that way, too. So I think it's like it's. Being aware of like making sure you're getting things out of it, and not like just taking investment pieces that aren't making you better. But that you're gonna like I'm gonna make this potential into something. Great yachts, like that doesn't mean necessarily that he's gonna stay riots doesn't mean that you gotta make up for the next person. Yeah. If you're consistently that person in your funneling all that emotional energy end that then you really have to see, like, does this person made me better. It's a lot of the times it doesn't. They're waiting for the payoff, but there's no promise or guarantee that's win to be you, especially through a big timing barrier. So I guess if you're the woman in the situation in meet the sky, he's great and all that, and then he isn't ready. What do you do? Yeah. It's really your options. Got married. My like personal reaction is just like who fine if it be done with. And you're not in the yeah. Yeah. But for my leg journalists like investigator hat at a really wanted to explore like what are the options when someone is like being noncommittal like what have women done in what has worked like I really wanted to see, like, what are the actual options. Stay in age when commitment can feel really scarce, some women did like stick it out. And I think like there were a lot of men that would act like boyfriends, but they like wouldn't label it and that was something that, like, I guess, I didn't really have a concept of a flake that happening. What if someone is like everything you want, but they like refusing to acknowledge the relationship or something like that new trend. Yeah, it's like a real new trend. I didn't think that men would put in that kind of effort, and then like, not right.
00:35:03 - 00:40:02
Actually be doing anything about it. So funny. She find them doing it were they trying to keep options open still or was it because they felt like putting the label would make them ready for slain. They weren't ready for. I think putting the label like automatically made it serious in the end the concept that like they couldn't have a serious relationship until certain things lace. There is one guy. I remember in particular was like he was like. A startup guy in like building companies which you would find a lot of people here in. He was very convinced that until he had, like a certain level of funding and enough going on that, like he could not girlfriend. So even if he was spending every night with her doing all boyfriend s things because it didn't have a label. It wasn't serious. Yeah. It wasn't like I wasn't serious. And I was kind of stupid because he went from, like I won't label it to let's label it, and then like literally like moved to Turkey. I'm Mary me. So it was like a very weird thing. I think that those situations are higher risk it in terms of stunk it out. Yeah. She's stuck it out for two years. But she was very convinced that like he wasn't dating. Anybody else who's spending all his time with our, like, like all of it was like, had all the markings of a serious relationship. He just had this problem with the label if he had to get over that in his own time, and it's funny, too, 'cause I have a friend, that's now married to someone that was really similar to that, too. And I see a lot of her stories in that story he was just very not. Sure that he wanted to be like that serious in. He really liked hamden hot about it. And she's like I don't really wanna dating when else he's like doing all the things I would want someone who I'm dating to do. So I'm going to weigh in everyone was like you're crazy like throwing the towel like done with it. He's not gonna do it you want. And like, that's what you'll hear from a lot of people very counter to traditional wisdom, like you need to walk away. So I think for a certain type of relationship in a certain type of woman if you can deal with the big you ity not all women can. That's something I learned about myself in that I've learned about other people to some people just hate. It makes them anxious. It makes them obsess about the relationship event less productive in, in none of that's great. But if it works with your personality, in it's okay and you seem to be getting more from it than you're like losing than, you know, kind of some people watch another option is, is to definitely just like walkaway throw in the towel. You know, if you can't do that in manage, that I think that it's good because you find out where you stand really quickly. I found like some people in breakup, were like very triggered to. Assess the relationship from a different viewpoint in some of them came back around. But like they had to have that break in time to actually see what was going on. Like you have to show somebody what life is without you. I'll have that very stark test, and that for me is no contact like guava from yourself. Romania I used to just block Xs like I was like if they really want to get in touch with. They'll find it way right? Like just cut off their numbers. They cut through social media profiles in go dark. Like you have to see this very distinct difference because it will drive them crazy, nor knowing doing this, the, with the mentality of not consciously tried to drive them. Crazy more consciously trying to you're trying to find time ready, really, which do it out of aim for your own benefit, not to elicit some sort of response. France has you're moving forward. And I think that, that's one of the big things that in the break-up is the good thing to execute. You don't have to go, mmediately date, someone just like live your single life. Joy you're on. Yeah. Exactly. I. So what's options were. I think the other one is just like a very concerted effort to like start. Choosing. I mean, that is another one walkaway because obviously, most of these things don't pan out like this is the modern day commitment issues like it's only gonna pan out. Once if you're looking for a long term partner, or maybe like twice or a few times of the course of your life. It's, it's not gonna work out every time. But, like make a very conservative effort to look for men who are ready eight with that intention of their showing red flags, you're not gonna like just dive at it and all, you know, he's a planning on moving in a few months, but, you know, maybe it'll change like all these things that we do in our minds. How do you talk yourself out of waiting because sometimes you do get in that mindset of will come around as yes zig will realize I am that end goal woman, I'm gonna wait just a few more months or years. I am a big deliever. I am a big believer that people need to play out relationships to kind of, like lay them out enough in their head. So, so you need to see in your own mind that you've stayed long enough that it's not going to work, and so times, I think that like you have to someone has to like wounds you tweeted an inch of your life. Till you're going to be like emotionally, I'm done like I got to walk away. Like I don't have anything left to give this person. And so sometimes, I think those can be the best lessons. And so if people are very deadset on waiting, sometimes I'm just like an people ask me all the time, and I'm like, do they do that did set on it? Like, if you're like trying to, you know, like we were just talking about, like play the game of going dark, and moving forward or dating around like you're doing that. But your mind isn't doing that? It doesn't really help. Right. That's the case. Yeah. And if you're still in very attached to somebody else, mentally, and like that, right? Yeah. If it's going to be hunter productive anyway than others.
00:40:02 - 00:45:03
But yeah, there's no reason to do it. And I think some people do relating to get to that point. I remember like really might that my second ever boyfriend. Like I've had I've had three like significant relationships. But my second one was, was definitely that situation where he was just like he had to me within an inch of my emotional life, Laura. I have seen that this is forever. Dead. It like on very effectively after that, but I really did have to do that. So barring like friends who are in like abusive situations. Of course you always try to like encourage them to leave. But if it's not that in there just waiting around for somebody to change. Sometimes they have to do it. Right. You know, the problem with waiting is that for some reason, they always know. Yes, please. No. Yeah. Remember my gold standard in New York, the guy, so into after we broke up. I was waiting and I was just starting to get over him. Right. It's probably like a month in half. Yeah. Just getting back into the dating scene, and he likes the photo on Facebook. It's nice. They only come out. They always come at especially when there's another guy the picture. Yes. When you're about to let go of that hope that last glimmer of hope they come back and like your Facebook photo, now, they probably wouldn't ages do Instagram. Yet you face. But He's always. not so outdated. But it's just so crazy. That's the danger of leading is that they could come back in, when they do make these very tiny effortless Jaguars in rose your whole world. Upside down. Yeah. Right. On time, a big proponent of just like delete people from your so. Get out of your head. I know it's so hard because it's like you're definitely killing it, and you're like won't even be able to stock them anymore when do with my time, you know. But you really should do lost. Yeah. Is the is the big thing you need to work on moving on in part of it is, cutting all ties, have you found anyone try to like stay friends or like doing the beer in minimums, like keep it going men or women women to keep the guy. Yup. Of mine. I mean, I think I have. I mean I've definitely seen it and I I wouldn't recommend that strategy because I think you're completely still invested in, in laying the guy is just like, oh, Great Lakes. You took a step back. This is awesome like continue around doors. Still open. Yeah. So I think that's like the worst strategy like the one that I would not recommend for to do someone says, I still wanna lose him as a friend. I'm like, yeah. You'll be fine. Sometimes it's half have. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, got to resolve it on your own in until you do. And you're like fully on the other side. That's also there's something about, like check again, once in a while versus like talking every day like you were in relationship. It's super different. Do using the love gap applies to the reverse women who are not so much ready to pursue their end goal. Man. Yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely like because of the way that we're socialized at something that we see more in in men, but I do think some women have the same problems, and that's something that I've, I've definitely realized I like even kind of noted that negligent, I'm like, sometimes you won't be ready, like of the book in like, sometimes you could totally miss somebody. That's right for you to even I look back at my dating life. And, you know, I met somebody why was writing my book, actually a really. Yeah. I mean. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Because I made a concerted effort. I was like, I'm not gonna date while I'm doing this because it's something that. Felt had been single for awhile. And if something that felt like for me. I didn't want my story to taint everyone else's in any way, shape or form. I wanted to be completely clear headed in single, but of course, the time that you taught, your telling everyone of not dating during this time, then somebody will pop up into. That's just how life works. But I found that person but I mean I tried to shut him out every possible way I was not ready at all because that you're now boyfriend real actually. No, not at all. I think at that time, like it had been totally dead in, like not able to resurrect at that time, but it was just funny because it was somebody that I totally would have dated otherwise. But I was so convinced that like I mean, I was not open at all. I was so much. So, like Dan, said that this is the attitude I need to take into writing in this book, and I did it in. That was what happened. So I wanted women to at least be aware you could be in that situation too. It's more situational. And I think it's something that's like probably for shorter periods of time in your life. Maybe that you go through things like that. But in maybe it's like a longer. Stay for men. You meet your boyfriend, your now boyfriend through friends of friends. It's interesting, though, but we had like a really longtime line to commitment to like from the time I met him like it would have been twenty fifteen than we didn't actually date until the end of twenty seventeen. So it was like. Long time in than even we had that, like, bumpy break, because I've been in Ann Arbor. He's in bay area in in. We broke up for five months because it was like, I don't know where this is going. I don't know what's happening. So I think it's best to split ways you guys get back together. So we kind of made independent decisions, and who really knows how it's all going to play out in the end.
00:45:03 - 00:50:01
I mean I I'm hopeful for the best. But it was like one of those weird things where I didn't know I felt like we were kind of unfinished, but he actually like he was working at a different company when we were together that was very focused on the barrier area. But now he's at a company that is actually, as like a main office in Michigan. So he's actually going to move back to Michigan. And I was actually like, really focusing a lot of my time out here in the bay area. So we just intersected in our like paths kind of got back on the same path. And I was like very much like I wanna find a way to make it work, and he was very much like a super can't, like right now like work is like two crazy in that was so funny that my story was very similar Tibo in my book, like it was very bizarre. But I think it almost quipped me. To like deal with it. And I did break up with him in this sensitive. Mike will maybe we'll act together but it was like I gotta do this for me on it. Does your like I feel like I need to say this to him like get the ball rolling again when this happened he super reserved, and like not super emotionally in tune, so ours, like I'm going to have to do it, but he's just like really receptive. He's like one of those people that, like, once he knows it's okay like help you totally fine taking initiative. But, like I think he thought that he had like hurt me. I think it seems that way I'm pretty motion, like when, like I get invested, but I like bounceback pretty well because I'm able to like really learn lessons from it rationalize it all on all the growth. So I, I definitely pretty well in terms of founding back from it, and I was like, well, our paths of suddenly merged. So they're on the same direction. So it didn't make sense. You more. The reason he broke up with no longer valid so interesting that you are living proof of your whole book. Yeah. Sorry. This whole like wading situation because I think this is awesome that we've heard all these success stories Ryan. I had a friend that David, the sky for eight years on and off. And we were all like, what are you doing? You're wasting your time. Now, they're married with kids like bare-legged fully committed. Yeah. But in theory like she could have ended up wasting a lot of her time by hacking around, like how do you like boo Ford in life? But also like maintain that hope if you really in your gut in core know that this is your person. Yeah. It's really challenging. And that's something that I tell people allies like you have to weigh, like, how strongly you feel about this particular relationship against like, you know, the risk involved is there is risk. Like you're only have we have finite amount of time on this earth. So, right. If you're not actually investing in people that are on the same page as you in. That's like what you want. You wanna long-term committed partnership in. You're not moving in that direction than it is totally risk. It at least when I dealt with it in like with my boyfriend in particular I can even speak from personal experience. Like I felt like we were unfinished, there was something about me that was able to operate with the idea that if like I found out a lot of hokey Sang's can be true. Meant to be, it will be, but not in the conventional sense that, like, you know, he'll conquer everything to come confined to. That's not. But like the your doors. If meant to be you to like find a way to get back on the same page in the same path. And you won't have to do like a ton of work tick at they're like your pass will like realign, and I think it's sometimes good to have space reach other to actually be able to appreciate what you have because I don't think that, that would have worked out any other way for me in a lot of the people that I talked to even one of my favorite couples one that broke up for five years in got together and got married. They were the ones where she's, she's like I don't regret the break-up lay. She's like that time was so valuable for me into his of like dating around, knowing what else was out there like building my life learning my career, and she's like all that gave me so much perspective that when I did get back together with this person that I actually knew, like this is what I want him reproaching it in a second time that it like it's worth it to me, but, but she was very open during that time. And I think that it's never going to be great. If you're not in the position, you can actually realize that, like I will be account my own. I don't need this person. You have to remember that like you don't need this person. You can have a happy life without them in one person that I interviewed sums it up really well, when she told her. Now husband, she's like, I know that I will be happy without you. I'll just be happier with you. So, so this is a really good segue to take. Oh, yes, I actually have something to say about your story Julie with your friend of eight years. Yeah. Also argued that she could have gotten into a really bad marriage for eight years in that would've been a divorce, isn't that kind of the same thing like that could have been a waste of eight years to. Yeah. So I guess, never know the takeaway, here is that you have to go through these journeys to get to the end goal. Whenever that may be. There are no shortcuts raise looking for ways to hack dating relationships. And so we tend to avoid relationships, right? Because we're like this person isn't the end all be also I might to say no to this commitment now in the navy like when I'm ready. I will be the right person. I actually would encourage people to get into more relationships one that's high learn and to is that's how you know, where you're going trying to, like, so hard to avoid the situations than you're never gonna know when you're ready. For that end goal woman, or end goal, man. It could shed to light like how much this person is or isn't your end goal.
00:50:01 - 00:55:06
This other person that you've had in your mind by, like you get into a new relationship you like wow. This is actually so much better fit, like, wow. This actually sheds light on, like, how much this was the right person. Yeah. Yeah. So we got to do the work the open to it and get into these relationships if you enjoy spending time with someone then spend more time with them. Yes. See what that feels like see where it develops Nonni for labels. I'm totally in with this, like Milan. I, I. I. No need for, like defining this shit that shit is more. Like, what are we most comfortable doing in our relationship? This is what I feel most comfortable doing. Let's discuss it. Let's move forward with it. If it doesn't work out some point, it doesn't work out, yet, I think my biggest takeaway is just like having faith that things will work out the way they're meant to be in. Also, not forcing the situation by it sounds like all of this lake success stories that you noted, none of the women were like trying to force someone down path. Even if this stay around the accepted the situation for what it was in decided consciously like, oh, hey, I'm gonna weed because I know says the person in the in the situations where someone came back into their life later. They weren't against sitting at their house waiting every night by their fuller, waiting for that person to tax. They were living their lives. So I think at the end of the day like if you do meet someone at the wrong time move forward. Whatever way, is right to you just have faith that things will work out the way. They're supposed to. Yeah. So much easier said than done. You have he pushing yourself though, to just like really question the behaviors that you're doing in and make sure you're moving forward like you'll feel it. If you stop total, in, like that's a big thing to be aware of if I'm stagnating than things are not going. Well so like real fun is dating. This guy, he's a founder and his company is like really taking off. He's really busy. But he also wants her in his life. So they are exclusive with each other. They see each other regularly. They have boyfriend girlfriend sort of dates, he's recently asked her to move in with him but he doesn't want the label. And this is what he said to her idol. Let the label because I don't feel like I deserve that label way friend yet I'm still working my way up to that label. Yeah. And I thought that was really interesting disease, like I'm dating other people a on that. It's just I think the boyfriend label puts me in a different category. And I still have a lot of personal grow get there. I mean, I've had this personal experience. I think men do have this feeling like I need to like. Be the best person. I can't for you, when they do meet that grab if they know like deep down, they aren't there yet or like they're preoccupied with something else, like they will kind of like take that step back or whether it's totally disappearing breaking it off or just like not putting a label on it. Yeah. Like some barrier to like full-fledged commitment, and I do think men are really idealistic it in some ways, more than women, I think women are a little more pragmatic about how they approach things, but like men are super idealistic. And that's something that I, I realized very early on that they do like put like a really heavy emphasis on like relationships in, like what level of relationship in with unlabeled relationship in boyfriends in the terms mean more. They put so much more weight into it, where women are like Ashland. You're gonna show up tomorrow lay. That's it. That's all this means maisy want. Right. Right. I think that's another takeaway, though, is like I personally, would rather some would be all in than like not in at all or half out. So I think it comes back to this like, being ready. I think we need to ditch this like old like he's just not that into mentality. If we are in this situation, ourselves or have friends in it linked, understand that everyone's kind of on their own path in Lincoln may or may not have anything to do with the other person. And that's, that's exactly. I mean, this is what I'm taking away from your book, which is, I think, we're so focused on the other person insisting about your end goal woman, or end goal man thing about the end goal you who do you alterly- want to be in relationship and wing, your relationships? Still work out. Don't think about what you're lacking. Think about what it is. You want to develop more of not for the person you're trying to win back, a free yourself. We can always chalk it up to timing. Timing is everything. We can see that forever. But what's really gonna do for us nothing? Right. And control where the universe takes it. Right now. So you just the only thing you can control is how you develop yourself, right? Mention of the day you on this one. Julia or this question of the day comes from Jamie. I met this wonderful guy. We've been dating for about three months, he recently lost his work visa and broke up with me saying, he couldn't take our relationship to next level as. He knew would make leaving even harder. We were further involved, you still has two more months in the states. Is it worth suggesting we do a casual relationship and continued to enjoy each other's company will he see me as someone? Short term, if I do this, and will it ruin our chances of getting back together long-term if he does come back Tigers.
00:55:07 - 00:59:18
Geno ticket away. Yeah. So for me, I think that in terms of suggesting a casual relationship, I probably wouldn't pose it that way, I guess, as a casual relationship, but more just like I want to enjoy the time that we have left here while you're still here, it doesn't make sense that you're here in that we're not seeing each other, when we have strong feelings for each other. You are totally okay. Like you can really deal with the fact that this might not go your way like at the end of the day, he might still leave it in. You're going to have to realize that you put two more months, and you are two more months down the road in those feelings. If you are really okay to cope with that consequence than go for it. I say, like if that's a risk that feels worth at tier than, like, of course I think that that's something that I would tell you to go for it if that feels. Right. But I think that if you know, and I think women know if they're that type of person that's going to get like super motionless attached in. They're just gonna like shutdown not be productive at work. Stop seeing friends if that's going to be at, like, I think it's probably best that, like he is thinking about this very lodge. Really that like that is going to be a really challenging barrier to overcome if like, you know, an overseas relationship, sounds really intense but yeah, I, I would say, like I think about how you are as a person in how you're strung up it in really be with yourself. Is that a risk that's really worth it for you? Not about him in, like, what's going on there, like, is this really good for me. Like I think also like what you really want. Is it this person like are they so the person for you or do you want a relationship that's long term because it sounds like this might not actually go there if someone visiting baheren has to leave the country the other way you feel like the just such an undeniable connection may be two more months would put things in a different place. Yeah. But you're still going to do a long distance release. Yeah, you have to like know what you're signing up for in terms of the whole package like it could be really high risk. And you might not even like the distance the way that you think you do. It's just like super early in those heady emotions, where you're vary like consumed with somebody that's still super early on in that way. So. It's like just being really real with yourself about the reality of the situation in whether or not that's worth the risk, how I feel right before I get on roller coaster. Am I ready to face this? I'm gonna feel good at the end when it's over. But during it I'm going to be scared as hell. I want to go through these emotions, or I can just bow out, go get some cotton candy and be happy with that, too. He may not feel as thrilled or accomplish at the end. But I'm still baseline happy. Yeah. Your analogy of thick the opposite of like one of those like giraffes that you get your audit. You're like this is great and that the edge like fuck this person's. Dow God like all comes to. But I guess it depends, how you process helped you process, which ride, you're on abuse been bad. Jews your ride. Get on on. Yeah. Okay. We're gonna wrap this up, you so agenda for being on our show. Hi, mother love gap talking about this whole idea of timing. We finally figured out what that has to do with dating which just basically, you have no control over it. Out of the tour. Your mindset that you have control over, and we're also booking guests for upcoming season's, if you like to be a guess, on our show just reach out to us, dateable podcasts dot com. Okay. And we're going to wrap this up. Stay dateable action item for this week is to identify areas in your life where you may be forcing something to happen. Some of us have been post timelines were outcomes. Once you identify these areas scene where you can just let go a little bit. Let play out without pushing it for an outcome. Want to continue the conversation. I tag any post Pash tax day dateable, then head on over to our website, dateable, podcast dot com. There you'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos, and our coaching services with vetted industry experts, you can also find our premium y series where we dissect analyze and offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums to connect with us. Find dateable podcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter were also downloadable on Spotify. I tunes and other podcast. Platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review on eighteenth. And most importantly, remember to stay data will.