Season 9 Episode 4: The Players Ball with Match.com founder Gary Kremen & David Kushner

00:00:00 - 00:05:27

The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating. We're going to just take a jog down memory lane what does that assad and talk about the very beginnings of online dating and also online award the kind of evolution of love and sex when it comes to online we've got. Can we call you. The godfather of online dating as you recall up for is other than in a proper day for you but we've got gary credit on the phone he is fifty five years old lives in the bay area originally from chicago currently in a monogamous relationship he invented online dating specifically founded mashhad calm and was the first registrant of sex dot com why it's important to say first registrant. You'll find out a little bit because we also have dave dave kushner on the phone. He is fifty years old lives in new jersey originally from florida currently married and wrote the book the players ball which is a number one bestseller that tells the incredible incredible battle between the founder of match dot com who's gary and the comment who swindled him out of the websites sex dot com resulting in an all out war for control all for what still powers the internet today love sex and bitcoin. I talk to your bio david. I smell a sequel dave for set the scene for things. It's like back in the early nineties where the wild wild west of the internet as you describe it. <hes> you know in the early nineties. There were very few people online at the time and and certainly those that were online. Were not thinking about dating. I mean they were just thinking about like star trek in the grateful dead and like the chain you ronnie recipes and still certa considered e._s._p._n. Underground and something academic or wasn't the web as we know it today was just these bulletin board systems where you would just sort of call up on someone else's computer and see just taxed and it was the really wasn't the internet as we know it today at all let alone dating that is so foreign to like ninety nine percent of our listeners the life before the internet for you gary as a serial entrepreneur you saw that this was a massive community for capitalizing on love and sex so match dot com. How did you come up with this idea while you know you mentioned. Entrepreneurs diskette involved in things dan you're standing. I was doing a lot of dating back. <hes> i was spending a lot of time getting to the. I don't know if you remember this. The personals the newspaper in the newspapers you know you'd see him in the box specially alternative newspapers and wasn't a particularly satisfying. It is finding experience especially since it cost lad money has all you got was a couple of lines tax that bass. You know you'd see you would call a nine hundred number. People may or may not call you back and i had a vision mining was early email. Why can't we do pictures and video and audio and ask ah much longer profiles and that was my idea. It's can you elaborate more on the nine hundred number like what would happen when you called it so how it would work. It was crazy. You pay money right a couple lines. Cryptic grinds in the backer aleksei the alternative newspaper the san francisco a guardian no single jewish man looking for everything okay and the newspaper would charge you for that but in addition you'd call a nine hundred number in on the nine hundred number you'd leave a message passage and then you may or may not leave your phone number so it was really not a good way of doing this. How much was that. It was the per minute it could be three four dollars or minute. One of the things i notice is newspapers. Were making tons of money. In people who own newspapers were we're making tons of money and i didn't happening money. I noticed and i wanted to be like them so <hes> capitalism at work i mean i think it's hilarious that people complained about how hard it is to meet up with people on dating apps today when you had a call nine engine number and someone may or may not even respond and purely based on invoice alone at that time so i loved it in the book like i know david you wrote about like how gary actually could have had this idea from an an email <unk> gary <unk> talk about that a little more like wasn't it that like some <hes> female that was e mailing.

00:05:27 - 00:10:25

You're curious what she actually looked like show. What happen apple was ahead on a little business worlds first open source software company but i you know i was trying to make money on the earlier net and ah one day we got a purchase order which you know someone wanted to by someone who is from a woman who at h._p. I mean i can't even remember candidate. First time. A woman meld will any one was just very gender nail environment and i turned to my business partner and said you know we got an order order here and he's like yeah. That's good. We can eat this weekend like the yeah but i wonder if she's cute. That was kinda. Combining gagging instead of being a business email could have been personally now and could have had information on the person in their. Let's say a profile so what did the early days of nash dot com look like very early. Days was was email based not even the web. I know that for sure. I looked at my very first match dot dot com email from two thousand four. I will share that with the group and a little bit but to four was still ten years after this 'blanche like i wanna see i'm curious like the early early days like one of the website even by the wives and even a website it was again you doing it through email this barrier orlando because the number of people on the actual lab you know you kinda monaghan so email based in you zoom gandhi idea of anonymous email and are you an email. Maybe a picture wow you would attach because you've got to remember people that did you phones or anything. People attach hatch photos back then you know it's funny you got mail. Attachments juice came out that back back and it took like five hours on dial up darla. Wow did you a detailed picture site you might is we'll come back the next day dave. I'm just curious where you on match dot com in the very early stages i already. I was already in a steady relationship that the future wife got a few never had the added didn't. I didn't have the chance so what were your thoughts. When you heard about something nothing like this to actually i remember when i first heard about. I want to write about it. I i remember that distinctly talking to an editor mine at one of the big ben's magazines. I very distinctly distinctly remember saying i really want to write about online dating and he said what's back so i mean you know it was still considered. Science-fiction inspection like people just didn't understand people barely under that's the thing it's sorta hard to understand now from this vantage point which is just seemed like ancient history but there was a time when no one knew what the internet was you know and gary created match. It was still pretty much. At that time. I mean most people didn't understand what this was about at all to ask them to kind of grasp this world online and that they could meet somebody there it. It was totally bizarre but once the media started picking up on it i mean you know area was fast right. I mean take super long for for people to defined it what i would say in addition to that or is the geeky media the wired magazine that up but mainstream you didn't and read it in. Let's say moat house was made for for a couple more years in the nineties so people were more intrigued by the technology and not so much that you could actually use to find love your life. It's still probably even though it took forever to dial up is probably still more efficient than those nine hundred numbers yeah and did you charge people from early stage or was free to start the beginning okay so david. Did we establish you weren't on match but it was i as an intrepid <hes> young journalists i had to take my research right find out what was happening there but yeah i mean it's it's like with sex dot com in chapter in the book where i talk about the there's a very very long established history of pornography driving the adoption of new technology in <unk> back it continues today and i think in the future with virtual reality augmented reality you know usually sex in gaming seems to drive most everything so oh it followed that when people were first venturing into this new world online a lot of award guys early on and a lot of guys that computers were interested russian seeing we're naked pictures so <hes> in the first thing they would try would be sex dot com.

00:10:25 - 00:15:20

It's a universal value of that. Gary can talk about what that domain meant <hes> you know dollars and cents but the value was that anyone around the world would probably sit down type that word you know even though the technology wasn't so oh advance that you would see streaming and video on all of that whatever you can see on there people who want even if it was just some pictures like what was actually pouring like back then. I'm like what were you saying. I wanna know like those nine hundred number. You know early on it's just talks when there were no pictures detour doing what was called ascii are which was kind of like advanced emoticons that you would type characters <music> on the screen that far back enough it would make a picture of two naked people or something like that and then <hes> with scanners people would scan photos from in a porn magazines and put them online what was appealing a lot of people was privacy of it and that there was nothing to hide. You know you just turn off your computer or whatever you were yet was gone. You didn't have to worry about like hiding magazine under your mattress. That's kind of a simple thing that is actually grew to be a pretty big deal this world that was on on the other side of the screen the fact that you could turn it on and turn it off and there were traces of it and it would just evaporate was radical. I think it was more radical than anybody. Anybody realized at the time and certainly that would manifest later on just with all of the online communities and just would message boards and how you know how people would behave even that they'll i mean i was definitely too young for porn and dating in the nineties but i do remember the rooms are the chat rooms got really a heated he did i removing some ascii are in the chat room. Oh you do remember ask naidoo googling it now and i'm like this is i'm remembering things now remembering years i mean there's some really sophisticated. There's some very sophisticated. Ask you are are out there. I thought it was time into this julie. I'm we'll have to link to this one but real. It looks like a real photo yeah. It's basically for solicitors. It's like a guy fucking girl from behind but it's like it's all shadow. Lines actually gonna come back. After after this episode historic internet porn wait till the hipster is getting their hands. Oh yeah sending over these cafes through there is a kind of thing. That's a great idea. Someone someone needs to get on a gary gary back back. Bring about great company that i started before match when rag at the purchase order we used to sell those lie it wasn't you know kind of the adult old stack pictures lions and stuff but they would always be like one or two pictures of farah fawcett or something like that made him characters that let's stop wildly sold ascii art all my i had this <unk>. This company remember very early. <hes> we'd sell forty gordy <unk> programming aids okay forty programming aids for ninety nine dollars open source software and then we would have like art yet some free arts along with it but the are would be like pictures of farah fawcett. Wow that's a good example but going back to sex sex dot com what happened. Let's talk about like rocks of the story here. The whole book is basically about gary fighting against a stephen cohen for the rights to the domain main gary. Did you even want to manage dot com. What did well the the context of the whole story was. A registered egistered more than just the match dot com. I had a bigger vision kind of going back to the newspapers. Which is all these people who own. You probably don't remember this. One of the billionaires brilliant or families were people who own newspapers and media little bit different today. Battling chandler's handlers and other families had these great monopolies because own newspapers and how newspapers made most of their money was on classified advertising and my thought was why don't i be the online classifieds delivered in fact the parent company for match dot com was online online classifieds inc because i had this vision that so i registered the domain names bobbing classified advertising jobs dot com auto property dot com everything in the back you would see because i was gonna do it good for match dot com for the others i talked to.

00:15:20 - 00:20:07

I went out to talk on these papers at tom about his vision and they pretty much uniformly lacked in my face. Oh these papers have been around for a hundred years ears. You're gonna be around for another hundred years now. His <hes> believe that strongly an i answer the actor got. I registered sucks dot com. Could you know they had the personal ads. Wait a little bit of sex in them. So i registered sex dot com os just one of the names so you wanna gonna be the the inventor of fucking and sucking online as stephen cohen called himself from your book to quote i didn't i didn't have the vision amusing pretty good with social trends but i did miss the value of porn lacey that my bad yeah and i would say dot dot com is poorly managed today. It's just all fees. You're just weird. It's actually really weird because to to meet people have asked me that after the book came out about what it's like now on. I said the same thing. It kind of reminds me of that restaurant. That's in the strip mall in your neighborhood. That always is doomed. You know what i mean like no matter what they put in there. It doesn't do well so it's it is kind of weird that nobody's ever enable to capitalize. It's such a waste of a great domain name but it transformed internet history as we all have seen from this book and just everything there. I guess like david what made this story so interesting. They had to write about it. You know i mean. I think that it's just it's a it's a wild story and the i mean what the lengths to gary had to go to to try to get this site back. Were insane and beyond anything you could imagine i mean going starting in silicon valley in heading down into like you know ending up at a shrimp rim farm <hes> in mexico and so there was all of that but at the same time you know you had a really interesting way of looking at the rise of the internet you know in a in a manner that to me was for mainstream audience would be contrary and just surprising using you know because i think that most people when they think of the story of pewter age they think of apple and they think facebook but they don't really think about these. You know what i call. The wild west years when the rules were just being worked out for anyone. Who's not familiar with the story philipson on who steven cohen is then. How does he play into the story jerry. You want to even show your as rock hill vine. Stephen even coun- was a. Maybe a criminal genius. Five time convicted alan things like bankruptcy fraud obstruction of justice making false statements statements under oath naming fake tape for john. Alias is yeah all by gal. That's funny. Donald trump dot com yang hang it all makes sense why sydney's worsens now <hes> and that he was always obsessed with that iran a swinger club in fact who's arrested for running a swinging club in orange county anti-god of off of it by the tech being on lawyer coordinate convincing a jury that since he wasn't making any money on it he really wasn't really wasn't a bronco so clearly a smart person he was the inventor fucking and sucking online ha. I just love it. I can't say yes well. The you know that that was stephen what happened in the fact that he didn't the quote the judge the fact that he didn't own the name really didn't mean anything to a person like him. He reaches get it one of his specialties. It was kind of stealing people's property stealing people's stuff not with gone but with a pen was he was a forger among other things so he he convinced the registration kind of like the someone there that is not mine one. I complained about it. He was able to convince convinced. You better not domain name back him. It's mine and that's why i had a good court on the whole thing and going back to match dot com gary what happened to it what happened to a your relationship with matt dot com so when when finally yet the product launch the company turned out actually pretty successful <hes> including gays regret at two to three percent day which is is no laughing matter in business were came the passes.

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I wanted mandates to naturist assist long-term dating but let's say short-term dating and more inclusiveness l._g._b._t. That scraped out the people who put up the the money in the beginning and unfortunately it was the time she with the gold made the rules linked change today a little bit so <hes> we did a lot of conflict over that and the end eventually with the gold one and i left. The company said they didn't want a service l._g. Cheap member. I guess right that's right. I guess they're logic would be while we have. Investors will not too far out and dating that god what could that lead to. Maybe i am taking away armani not giving us any money in the future and they said out we're not doing it and i said this is how you're gonna make money and i'm in charge. What at the end of the day were in charge of that. It was <hes> so in terms of targeting that wasn't the initial intention but also in terms of functionality right that people who were not straight couldn't actually use match dot com tom that correct oh i put it on there and they they said take it off and i said good for you. Yeah now is good for me. It just probably cost a couple of hundred million dollars but whatever you know <hes> and then you went out and then you went in bog grinder dot com. Yes tell that's okay so i guess it both of your opinions. What's changed the most about online dating in the past. What is it twenty years my doing math <unk> at least twenty years. Yeah i would say mobile mobile location bates. It is definitely some of the bigger changes you know. You can find someone ten minutes away from you. You can find a date down the street right now. They're in that. I think that's a big it just seems to be a faster environment so before even online dating with like the one eight hundred numbers and the classified ads blizzard stigma around because there's so much stigma when match dot com came out. It's time to take a quick break so we can tell you about the latest service. We have been building over here dateable. We've created a platform to connect you with vetted experts from our network to help with everything from coaching with dating dating profile reviews and even ways to get real real feedback about your dating style sessions typically run from thirty minutes to an hour and can all be done via skype or google hangouts so you can be anywhere listeners happen sherry how worthwhile their sessions have been with comments about how easy the coaches are to talk to how they have provided a new perspective and how they have created actionable ways to inspire fire change to meet the coaches and book your session today visit dateable podcast dot com slash coaching now back to the so before even online dating with like like the one nine hundred numbers and the classified ads blizzard stigma around because there's so much stigma when match dot com came out yeah that's right. I mean league people worried about their safety. Security anonymity was hundreds of stigma hons so even before the online boom there was still stigma around just personal ads. Oh yeah that was risk you a personal ad. I don't know how people thought they were supposed to meet like oh. We met in ars like that's less risque at. I don't know what they were thinking back on bacne unit each by your parents exactly thing you think you just need a neighbor or coworker or classmate in just get married right away but i think what happened was people realized there's a whole world out there that you can meet and i remember when i was first introduced to match dot com. I was so intimidated by looking at all the profiles because i kept thinking i can't first of all i lived in norwalk connecticut for basement. He's been listening for a while here favors playing my favorite place on earth where everyone's super cool and diverse no i. I really thought oh my gosh. I'm not gonna find anyone and i went on match dot com and my first experience was like holy shit. There's a ton of singles on here. Who are all my age range who look somewhat attractive. I was really excited because i had some really depressing months connecticut so i pulled up my first email of the whole folder in my hotmail account called match and all the emails i ever got from match dot com. My first one is from november twenty ninth two thousand and four from someone named siege c._j. Boyce my username was deasy. I don't know where i came up with boise still out there c._j.

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Boys looking for you. His subject was are you looking for someone to shovel your car out of the snow. That's a pretty good line because i just moved to connecticut from california gary. Why do you think it's gonna go line does that one stack wasn't listen back. 'cause i thought yes well first of all. It's a question so it's interactive. Are you willing. Are you offering shoe. He's offering something that i really needed because i had no back then so i didn't know how to even stand in the snow his messages tired of the hey baby. What's your sign bar scene. He too funny. I need but isn't that the truth. I'm sick of the scene as well. That's why i'm trying this online thing out for a little bit. My name is chris. I'm twenty seven from brewster new york. If you don't don't know where that is it's about forty minutes from norwalk big change for you coming from l._a. I lived in vegas for three years and loved. It loved the each at as do but for now. I'm stuck here in the cold l._l. Till hellawell whoa that's really progressive and he wanted huntington cold with he wants them to be less cold with and he was super cool kasese l._l. Who use ello ella l._l. Told job job offer somewhere warm comes up if you like to chat email me if i don't hear from you that i wish you good luck in in the east coast later chris chris. I just want to point out today when you get hey. It's like cairo like a freaking novel. Actually i went through my entire folder. In every email was with was is a novel yeah. They were flow long conversations because i think back then people didn't even know how to approach online divulge my entire life. Do i tell you something funny. Now you're right now. Nobody puts any effort. I think you and i are at an interesting place because we i mean granted. We weren't in the early early stages of match dot com as we heard heard just now about but we were kind of in that time that straddle the more traditional dating websites versus the apps and i know for myself i remember it was like it was you just didn't talk about it as much more like something you kind of did there were still definitely a stigma around it like when i was twenty five like i remember going on match. Dot com com vickers a little later like twenty six twenty seven and that was what like eight years ago doing math correctly. I don't even know this. It was a year ago disturbing that but anyways i remember like there was this whole piece that would go home and you would like log into your match mccown and if your work like you make sure that no one could see your computer screen because it was embarrassing to be on it right but also exciting because you're not getting these messages like nowadays you just get a ping but back then you actually have to log into your email and who had internet on their phone so you know obviously have to be near a computer so it was really refund getting these messages something kind of taboo while you're around. I remember my friends and i kind of like devoted like it'd be like wednesday night. Let's go on match you val everyone. There was like a big but i also think for me at least like i remember they were years like even in college. I didn't really date all that much like it was more like thank you would meet someone at a party just like yeah. It was like very hookup central and like i can count the number of like actual dates. I went on like on my hand. It was not very much and i remember like even into my early twenties like i would just like meet people out at bars like you were drunk. You just wasn't like the best gauge of like actually early meeting someone to have a meaningful relationship with so i remember when i first signed up for match like it was like a big thing because it's like you got to write the whole profile but i -member burlap going on like really nice states like going to like nice restaurants kind of giving wake winding down and i was like this is what dating is like so. I think what's happening today now. It's like you're lucky to get a hotdog the real hot dog we still have had like i know. There's so many dating apps out there but i remember like we talked with david cruise. Who's like a dating and relationship expert that was a former matchmaker to on millionaire matchmaker and he was saying like if you're looking for something serious leak dot com e harmony. They still exists. These sites are still out there like if you're on tinder like it's kind of like if you think about bars that you go to right yeah. There's like that trashy dive bar. Everyone's like the last call place. It's like we'll dislike. Hook up with anything versus like a nice upscale lounge right right. It's a serious dating you think about going to match dot com because you're serious about dude how but gary the saga in i saw that and i knew there would be kinda different graduation levels for different people in that's how it worked out but what's interesting about oh you gary.

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You're not in the dating industry. You're not like a dating exper- relationship coach therapist but you saw that there was a need in the market for something like this and you jumped on it now looking back at the evolution of online dating and how match dot com has turned and how match dot com has turned out is this. Do you think about getting back into the dating industry will help out some startups over the years but i'm kinda down from it. It's kind of a tough industry. I would say now to make money on ashes because there's there's so much noise out there. It isn't network work business. What i mean by that is the more people on your in your database. The more likely someone is the use it generally speaking because you don't want to go some place. We can't date anyone anyone so because of that. I think it's a tougher business. There's some intruders. I feel like tinder really shook up. Online dating like mattress kind of like the first shakeup in nintendo was the second one which ironically was incubated in match right. Well i think i i think that's actually a pretty interesting point. They there has to be some. I'm kind of technological or some other type of lead to beat. An incumbent in the field <unk> kinder- was that one yeah or dating and there probably will be another one in the future. I'd say yeah kind of that more mobile use of facebook's <hes> database. If you recall that that goal tender you know would suck in facebook friends and then look for friends of friends so i think they're innovations. Do happen like any other business yeah well. I think tender with i remember because i was also dating in the rise of tinder two thousand twelve when exploded and i loved match because i went really quality dates matched up m. e. Harmony armony always had the highest quality <hes> now quality long term relationships tenders the facets yeah. I remember like i loved match because it was like like you went really solid dates but i remember just took a long time and a lot of them would kind of go into like the dating black hole sometimes because it wasn't that instant right and i thought i remember like when tinder first came out it was just like instantly everyone messaging you all the time you gotta love messages but also besides the point you were getting a along messages. I remember going out like date after a day like double booked like three times a week so it's just like the quantity so mass because it was easy access like you were just saying gary. It's anyone with facebook. Account could sign up. There wasn't that long profile however i think we long for the days also were there may be was a bigger barrier chantrey. Yeah makes sense while my longest relationship. I attribute to match we met on match. We dated for five years not stole my longest relationship ever so so thank you ed relationship off match also how long how long not long six months of all. I think that's that's respectable back ball you gary what if you had to do mesh dot com all over again. What are some things you would do differently well out of it was some internals politics within you know. I wasn't wasn't actually right now. I'm a public servants elected by three hundred thousand people kinda change careers a little bit <hes> i would've been a little bit more political and <hes> you're probably could have got a lot of the things i wanted on with my crazy ass investors if i would have just listened a little bit more natural in such a we doing my way or the highway took a lot of people would say about their lives where the now what about like dating like the actual style of the dating site like is. Is there anything in the future stuff that you were like. Oh that is that was such a great idea or do you feel like the way you did. It was good. I feel good about the time we did it right right and we help satisfy market needs. No no regrets in that way i guess what advice would you have for modern daters today well. I don't think yeah i'm gonna say. I don't think it's changed and i would say people have to. I'm gonna say rattling in the category of being less picky but it's more we're like love can come in many different forms and people should be less judgmental about it. You know you never know i. I really do mean that. You know people all well. He's <hes> he's only five nine and i one five ten. I think less judgment would serve people much better amen. Give it a little bit of a chance camps. You've been riddled chance. Did you see like data about like who actually ended up getting married and being together from match like was there anything that showed that that people didn't necessarily early go for her. They initially selected i. I don't think i could give hardened fasten okay. And how did you meet your partner. Was it online i yeah okay okay. Let's say i'm not in the promotion business here.

00:35:06 - 00:40:07

He's hanging back in like this. Gifty is amazing dr the best f._d._r. Ever best mask of going to the segue takeaways biggest takeaways ask yard. It's coming back back yeah. You know i need to get ahead of this needs to be a business gary. Patton budget yeah there the war time efficient way of making ask you are and then we can send those instead of emoticons the new emoji. It's weird it here. I my biggest takeaway regardless of what happens with online dating and offline dating. We just have to work with technology instead of against it. I think oftentimes we blame technology for some of the dating problems that we face but it's really how we use it so no matter what the next tinder or match or bumble is instead of thinking about <hes>. This is making me more antisocial. It's making me <hes> having dating fatigue. No actually we can't blame the technology we can only blame the way we're using them. I love that. I also might other take away to. It's just like it's all an evolution solution. The fact that like i mean i think the story is crazy. Gary that started from like sending an attachment bodo but like that's like what was going on at that time hi so it's like there's certainly pros and cons of current and past he added. I think like to your point of just going with what we are currently doing it. There's also a lot of pros of current day. Just the speed the level of connection like gary mentioned. You're on the go all the time. It's mobile like there's just so many benefits i think auto times we get caught up in the complaining and the dating fatigue and it's like there are a lot of pros to online day opens you up to like a whole new world of people that you would not out of matt and i think it's easy to forget those pros when you're in the oh. I don't forget that i mean there's a saying in business contacts equal contracts and i think the more or dates to have the more likely you get the right one so you're a numbers game guy within reason if if you're not getting out <music> out you're not getting that about that. They're not getting out. You're not getting a that is a great line cast awed. You're not getting out there. You're not gonna get any. That's very true you gotta be in the game the game in the game while thank you for inventing venting online dating gary without you. I would be holed up somewhere not knowing what to do and we will actually countless relationships. Both of us would not have ever had live so absolutely or heart. Would you do that one guy in fremont. I discovered him otherwise is how would i ever find him right by. My last batch story that i just i always think is hilarious. Is i got this one message that was in morse code and it was like maybe that's what it was like a bag. Leo morris it was real. It was like if you could figure this out like we go out of date but then my friend also same mass fuck man don't copy and pace morse code. Come on guys do some ask. You are well. Thank you gary for taking the time out and <hes> <hes> being the godfather of online dating. It's been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you david to for joining and telling us about this book. I mean i love the book. I definitely definitely think that everyone should read is fascinating kind of being back in that time. That was like beyond a lot of us so i guess can you tell us is kind of just like where we can get the book anything else they want to share before we wrap up the book is available online and in stores for for every could find it and <hes> you know the response rate people have really seem to you know take an interest in the story because says i think partly they never knew what the origins of what all of this were and you know like gary once joked that he's responsible for over a million babies but the probably is responsible for ten billion babies this plan. I mean it's it's amazing how widespread this is so <hes> you know and i think it also just this gives insight into how people innovate in perhaps a little a little look into where things might might go in the future awesome well yeah amazon zahn you can get it barnes and nobles dot com any online will link it into fun tastic okay.

00:40:07 - 00:41:31

We're going to wrap this up and for any of our listeners who have some match dot com stories of their own. Send those you us. We love jogging down memory lane with some of the earth messages. You got because the ones i got were pretty. We damn good yeah or if you're if you're still using or sex dot com or any variation. I still want to hear from you and just what's your experience reince being with online dating. We always love a good online dating story yup and faulk best in our i want some ask. Ask me our website. We'll be ascii art from now on. We're going to wrap this up. State want to continue the conversation. I follow us on instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcasts tag any post with a hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those then in head over to our website dateable podcast dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our premium. Y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us so don't forget to leave us a review and most importantly remember to you. Stay dateable.