Season 9 Episode 6: Deeper Dating with Ken Page

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The Dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the Huffington post calls one of the top ten podcast about love and sex. On each episode, we'll talk to real daters about. From sex parties to sex droughts, date fails a diaper fetishes and first moves to first loves. I'm your host Yue Xu, former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer Julie Krafchick as we explored this crazy dateable world. Hey everyone welcome to another episode of dateable a show all about modern dating we've talked about how people can come out of dating aiding fatigue because we hear that all the time and also people want to know how they can date better and more effectively but we haven't so much touched upon this idea of dating deeper and and what does that really mean because I think with the guest we've talked to before it's about how do I gauge my interest in this person. How do I gauge their interest in me. How do I plan of really fabulous Oculus date but I think in modern dating we're just not giving each other enough time because it's all about that swipe that like that instant gratification and we are honestly so lost at how to even judge a dating situation yeah and I think a lot of times at least for me when you've taken that step back and looked in words does that change the way you date not just all these external factors absolutely and before I introduce our guests who is patiently waiting for his insurance I get to do it. Do you remember a time when maybe you met someone and then there wasn't much of an interest in the beginning and after a certain amount of time they start becoming more attractive to you or you find quality is about them that you find really intriguing sure me too and I think about those times and how unfortunate would have been if I didn't have that elongated time to get to know this person because if I if I had just met them on dating APP I probably know gone on a second date with unfortunately or maybe even a first or even her state yeah no kidding so there's so many missed opportunities out there and that's what we want to talk about today. Is this idea of deeper dating. What does that mean so. I'm introducing Ken Page High Ken. Thanks for being patient so good to be here. Thank you. I love what you said. I'm glad that you liked it because I need your your approval in what we're talking about today page as a licensed clinical social worker renounced psychotherapist and a leading voice of hope and wisdom for everyone seeking seeking to find cultivate healthy lasting love he is the host of the deeper dating podcast and author of the bestseller deeper dating how to drop the games of seduction and and discover the power of intimacy can also popular psychology today in Huff Po Blogger some featured in the magazine New York Times Cosmo J. D. M. Moore. He's sixty two two years old. He lives in Long Beach New York this husband and children well. That was a mouthful cats dogs and cats too who can is saying. I was single chronically single for decades and passionately committed myself to finding out why that was and changing it what I learned led me to a life that is much much richer in love romantic and otherwise defined what chronically single meeting Oh God okay so I was one of those people that like I couldn't go away. I live in New York. I lived in New York then. I couldn't go away for the weekend because I felt like I'd be missing opportunities to find my the right. I couldn't go away for a weekend. I was obsessively seeking love in bars sex clubs on the street eight. There were no dating apps at that time we were talking about like a phone lines and a million other different ways to for many many years six weeks was my marker marker for the longest ever ever got with anybody before ended six fucking weeks. How long were you like phonic single with six weeks. It's being your longest relationship. How many years are we talking. I guess I hit the one year mark with someone when I was thirty and then the three year mark when I was forty when I was I guess let's see a little older than that. Just a couple years older. I met my husband and we've been together now almost nine years so when you say you were chronically single you actually mean you were a serial dater. That's what it sounds like getting into relationships and I don't really think I had that many no at a lot of days. I think serial dater sounds more like something really happened in these. It was like you know maybe two times or three times and I I was doing so much wrong. I actually started a support group for chronically single shrinks because there there are so many of us we all tend to have like you know attachment ish which is why we do the work we do you know our fascination with problematic attachment styles that changed my life that really changed my life and I was committed to growing but it is not like I wasn't trying for those decades.

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I tried so so hard to find love. I never stopped trying and I failed failed. Failed failed failed so what would happen after the six week mark. Why do you think six weeks with like the time when the end it will in retrospect I can see some of those reasons. One reason is and this is like kind of the deeper part art. This is what I have learned. If you're ashamed of the most sensitive vulnerable precious deep down parts view you're GONNA have bad relationships relationships again and again the degree to which were ashamed of those parts of ourselves is the degree to which we're going to be sexually romantically attracted to people who aren't good for us the degree to which we dignify those parts of ourselves is the degree to which we kind of radiate something different and we lose our taste for people that chip away at our sense of self worth breath and we find people who love us who we are. This is like the deeper physics of dating and this is so important because people talk about the the search for love. The whole dating advice thing is so much about like well. When you find your relationship you can do the deeper deeper intimacy work or when you have children when you could do deep rich relationship work with them or all these things but nobody says nobody acknowledges that there is a vast amount of learning about the deepest deepest lessons of intimacy that you can have and should have a need to have in your dating life so the thing is like you just do whatever the hell you need to do to find find your one so that you can begin your life and it is not like that at all. Your search for love is supposed to be a big ask journey self-discovery. It's it's a journey that never ends after you found love and this is such an interesting conversation of very timely conversation we're having now because I was speaking to a friend of mine and we said visit a funniest human beings depend on milestones or external changes for something major happen. We say stuff like Oh. It's springtime sometime. Love is in the air or it's a new year. New Things are about to happen. We so depend on external factors to change our own situation. Shen when we are the ones in control of how we can change are suing. It's so true. It's so true. So what was your Aha moment that suddenly had a change range like going from this chronically single place of I remember walking with my friend Mindy in the city and bemoaning my single hood once again and she she's really smart and she just looked me sit. Can I know you're single and so do you and I said no mindy. I really really don't I don't why and she said because you don't don't go to events where you're GonNa meet people who share your values you go to like bars and clubs and online and like a a telephone lines and all of that and I said shut up because I didn't want to hear it I did not WanNa hear it. I mean I I said Yeah I guess so but I just felt like none of the attractive people were going to be there and I somehow had this picture of what was exciting and what was turn on and unfortunately titley. That was someone who is kind of bad for me so that was one moment although I kind of swallowed it and went on I would say the deepest moment was when I began and therapy being in therapy and kind of doing some personal growth work and I realized that like I was very ambitious with my work. I was ambitious with school. Will I was am vicious with my insane dating life but I was so busy that I wasn't feeling this kind of gaping loneliness underneath when I slowed down down enough to feel it that was deregulation and it hurt but it changed me and it made me realize that I was so busy looking for love that I was doing nothing thing to build love. Nothing and I realized I had to change that. I had to start building love and that's what my world really started to change and it took years before I met my husband. It was a long long journey but those were some of the market points that were really big and I'll share another one too. which is the thing and I think maybe a lot of people were related? I'm really curious. If if you relate this thing of you meet somebody you're attracted you like them. It seems like they they like you. All is good. You're excited potential and then after a little bit of time you realize that they are really decent like they're not going to surprise you with crap rap. They're not gonNA be like a roller coaster ride and that they just start like available. They WANNA hang out with you and they like you and they want to be with you in. They're interested and all all of a sudden your interest plummets. That's what I call the wave of distancing. Have you ever experienced that because it ate up my life for decades. Absolutely we've talked about this before.

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It's just how you perceive what achievement means. I think we see it in our workplace. We see it in life where we feel like there needs to be a little bit conflict or a tumultuous period for you to feel the achievement in obtaining something or someone so if everything goes as planned at smoothly you feel like you haven't really achieved that person. It's just that person just fell in your lap so you kind of think there's gotta be something wrong with her slaying like people value what they have to work for yeah. It's like a subconscious thing you that's all true but but the thing is that the people you have to like work for usually are are built can tumultuous relationships and I had this worse I than anybody. I knew. I remember being in second grade. I experienced this. I in second grade. There was this boy that I was trying to be pals with. I thought he was really really cool and I fight. I worked really hard to get him to like me and become a pal then he was interested in hanging out with me and I remember this is how bad I had it. I remember thinking thanking us of now going to have to like not hang out with him. Because I've lost all interest loud. Do you think that's like avoid into behavior patterns to eighteen absolutely absolutely and what that is and I've spoken to Arthur Aaron about that WHO's a brilliant researcher and the subject Victor Love and attraction and he said those of us who don't love ourselves the less we kind of have a kind of general feeling of love for ourselves. The more likely we are to have that happen with people who love us we do we can that s interesting. I think that really resonates with a lot of people especially what you said earlier about you felt so so ambitious in your life in your career in everything and you felt like ambitious in your dating life but you weren't doing anything to work towards finding love you you were just doing things to find love but not working on it and I think a lot of our listeners would definitely relate to that because many people are very ambitious just in their careers in their personal lives and they will say they are very ambitious in their dating lives by going on multiple days a week and always be on the sites and you know being out there. There are now working on that internal love and we don't know what it's like to feel loved and to love yourself. You don't know what it's like to love someone else. It's too so when you have someone that super interested in you that he feels like what was it. The wave of distances like I guess yes I can think of it two ways. One is what you just said like. I don't know what love feels like so I this is too much and overwhelming and I want to avoid it and the second is like maybe for for whatever reason you're just not that into this person or attracted to them. How do you like to suffer between the two. How do you overcome this wave yeah. I feel feel like I'm actually going to be able to give instructions in take a thief. 'cause I'm an expert in it. I mean it with my husband and that was surprising but let me answer this first and then I'll tell that because it's kind of funny story but this is what I have discovered as a horrible horrible victim of the wave endlessly. It's like a wave like when I quit smoking cigarettes. I would get hit by waves of having to smoke and they didn't just feel feel like Oh. I want a cigarette. They felt like down to my bones. I am the person who is meant to have a cigarette right now. It's wrong not to have a cigarette. I need the cigarette I it's me to have this cigarette. That's how it felt and if I didn't smoke that wave would break it would crash and it would disappear and I would find that I was okay again and might desire Zaire. My fierce desire went away while the thing about this wave of distancing is that it's a wave fear and so this is what you do when it hits if you can do this you do not force yourself to be more intimate than you wanna be because that's like suffocation and you will fli. You will flee if you do that like maybe you're feeling doing this with someone and and he or she says Oh let's like have this really great long like three hour dinner at this restaurant and you feel like no no no no. I'm not ready for this but maybe you feel like I got a movie with her or him and hold hands I could do that. That would be fun. Go for a walk in the park. That'd be cool. Bring our dog out to play. I could do all of that and I won't get too freaked out. I will get suffocated. That's what you do because what part B. There are few things that make us fall into the wave. It's it's a fear of being seen in other words. Shame it's a fear of being abandoned and when you meet someone available. That's the scariest thing of all so your psyche jumps. It's in and says Nah not so good not so good because you know you're really at risk so first thing you do is you don't suffocate yourself. You don't force yourself to do anything you don't want to do.

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The second thing you do is you don't do you don't flee. Don't give yourself space but don't Fli do something fund with this person connect and here's what's going to happen if miracle of miracles the wave will crash and break and go away and you'll be like your feelings come back and and with that you'll have a better sense of is this person right for you or not but it's not easy because that period where the waves hitting it's like oh it's the less you want to do. Do the world is be near that person so that's the solution and you'll know really quick if they're right for you or not you really will if you could do this so the keyword there is wave wave you want to wait out the wave and after the wave those feelings may come back or you may no longer have feelings for that person. I love the album I feel like sometimes in the past two. I've said like not something too quickly. That was my instinct for whatever reason so I think what I've been trying any to do like recently is like let me get back to you or like. Let me confirm at this time so not leading someone on but like if I'm feeling not unlike Mike leading a day or two sit in like see how I come out and if I'm still feeling like I really don't think it's good to see this person that I don't and if it's like actually like my and mine has changed then all go yeah. You got to sleep on it. I think the same goes for the reverse people have had amazing dates with someone and the next day realize they had no feelings. Thanks for that yes and it's very circumstantial and so you have to let wave right out and really really feel what you're feeling yes and the miracle. Is it passes. You wouldn't think it passes when you're in the middle of it. You wouldn't think it does but it does. Can you identify that this was a wave like after all these years of kind of like aac fleeing and not knowing what to do like how did you get to this place of recognizing it. Yeah that's a great question and the thing that I want to say about that. Is None of us are taught about this this in any direct way. We're just like generic fear of intimacy which I have to say fear of intimacy. Intimacy is not a pathology. It's being human. If you're breathing you have a fear of intimacy. The only question is do you know you have fear of intimacy and what do you do that. That's just the way it is but that's a whole other kind of big thing but but so for me. This is like kind of cool story so I met somebody on a phone line. And how does that work work. We're so curious sure yes derail this. Come out for you but you gotta be there with you. How does this choline dating work. We'll okay so the way it works. Is You call a number and somebody comes on the phone and is this guy whoever the guy is. It's kind of really crude food but it's very kind of like it's not too different than tender. It's a little different. It's worse so somebody talks you hear that voice. You don't like their voice you press. Palanka go and then they're gone and you could press pound or whatever it is that you press I forget anytime you want that could be in the middle of sharing the deepest thing you could be in the middle of phone six. TV next like is this. Is this something that heterosexual couples did too. I don't know uh-huh curious about phone lines now so you could be like and then I take out my big cock and I mean and then you're gone on tinder nowadays. You're like all of a sudden. You're unmatched like same thing right. It's just the beep the clique you don't get to actually be in the middle of words and communication. Maybe tender should add that feature. It's it's it's really it's really you know but I wanna say something else about that. which is part of the reason? Why seduced that of doing the deeper work is always another person on the phone? There's always always another person to swipe and that's Deuces us out of doing the real work as we think no. It'll be like the next one or the next one to that but if we don't do the work the same the stuff that's going to happen but so I'm at this guy he had a really sexy wonderful gorgeous voice and and we talked and we talked and we had phone sex ax and we connected and then we kept talking afterwards and we just kept talking and sharing and we talk like that and had this kind of romantic relationship for a few weeks and then we decided we were GonNa meet and it was big. This was really big cause. I felt like I had fallen in love with him. So I met him in a restaurant. I saw him him and my heart sunk it sunk so bad he reeked of Cologne he had these thick gold chains on and and he was a little kind of shocking looking like scary looking and I felt like oh no this was going to be my relationship. We had touched souls and we had we we had we had gone so deep and it was so beautiful.

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I just felt horrible horrible and I knew this was it sat down talked with him for a while and then I said I just need to to use the bathroom because I needed to get away and I needed to know how I was going to like. Get Out of there. After we had like shared souls I went into the bathroom. I washed my hands and I close it said how do I really feel now and I was stunned by the answer. The answer was I feel happy. I feel warm and I like this guy. Oh how did you get there how Mary. Short may go to the bathroom and come back to your. It's one of the coolest dating tricks I know. It really is but so I did that no explain how in a minute but I did that and I realized I felt grateful that I met I went back and I sat down his chains. Were still there and his Elizabeth Taylor Cologne for men was still there and he he was still him and I have gotten through the wave a mine shaft. It was a mindset shift that was one time that it happened that was a really really powerful time and just to tell a story about a dear friend of mine and his name's David Schecter. He's a Broadway lyricist and brilliant amazing person. He met a guy on a phone line and he had the same thing happen and Eh really fell in love with this guy and he said I know that when I meet you. You're not going to be my type so he's a theater person. He's like this progressive theater person. He did this thing he said. Did I'M GONNA come and meet you and I'm going to wear a mask and I'm GonNa leave that mask on so I can hear your voice and not be distracted by the way you look which I don't think is exactly my type. He wore a mask for a month. I'm on my every date. They ask Mascot. They had sex drank. They did everything everything but he wore the mask and then one day he looked him and he said I'm ready. Oh and he took off the mask and he was ready. I wasn't his type but they were in love. They were together until that guy died. Wow Wow what happened with your guy date for awhile. You'll guy my husband. No no the guy that your gold chains shaped guy gold chains guy. We dated for a number of months. Okay I struggled because I wasn't that attracted to him. For all the reasons I mentioned but I loved him and he was also Kinda hot in a particular kind of tough guy way so there was something but not enough. I made a decision. I kind of made a decision that if this guy was right for me I had to make this work because in some weird way to some degree after a certain period of time I think attraction is a choice like like not right away but after a while I think it actually more than we realize that it's a choice and I decided I was going to really open up to him and I did and when I did that it became really it clear that it wasn't going to be a match because he had a drinking problem okay so you still gave it a shot though like I think it wasn't like ended just because you weren't attracted him. There were other factors actors. I broke through my wave and I would continue to break through it and I think it would have worked and that wasn't a miracle to me because I thought this was impermeable. Impenetrable bull unchangeable and then I met my husband and I loved him so much from the beginning. Oh so tracked him so into him and I remember writing in my journal. Maybe the the wave is like someone's not right for me because I don't think I'm ever going to have a wave with this man. I think I just no one else was right for me but sure enough half when he really became available I lost interest and the wave hit me and hit me so bad so bad that I thought I was GONNA lose. This guy hi who like when the wave wasn't hitting I wanted to marry when the wave was hitting. I wanted to flee Israeli bad. How junior has made a phone line. No we met we met the real way and I got bullied into meeting him and this is something I teach in my book and I taught in my classes but I wasn't really doing my mother said it to me. Go to the gay family week because I adopted a child as single dad. She said you want a guy who loves being dead or is a dad like go and I said No. Everybody's couple there. Then another friend of mine WHO's very pushy and very wonderful she kind of literally backed me into her screen door and she said you are going and I I said okay because I love her. She's really smart and so I went. I met Greg there while okay so you said two things that you think attributed to to this chronic singleness one that you're going to wrong places which sounded like you to the right place and might your husband and then to that you have identified this feeling of avoidance in this wave in you learned how to conquer it. was there anything else that you can have identified as a would agree question. Let's whisk askew away for a quick minute into the world of audible escape a monthly subscription that provide unlimited listening to thousands of love stories. If you love to listen to dateable must must love good stories audible.

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Escape provides an abundance of amazing titles for you to choose from and you don't need to be an existing audible member to sign up the book. I've been really enjoying listening to is the chance by the Number One New York Times bestselling author Robin Car. I Love Small Town Romances about people with dark past so imagine having access to see stories stories like this and more with audible scape get unlimited listening to love stories for twelve ninety five a month and listen up join the community and listen for free for one month download the APP to explore all the love stories by visiting audible dot com slash love dateable to get started now. That's audible dot com slash love. DDAT DAT ABC L. now back to the show. was there anything else that you can have identified as A. What a great question? Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah there was and what it was was that and this is what I teach in the our deepest insecurities reveal our core gifts our deepest gifts and those gifts of the key he'd finding healthy love and keeping the parts of yourself that you're most embarrassed to share when you're getting close with someone those a year core gifts those of the gold those of the places places where you've built a layer of shame because they're so tender and vulnerable and they are the key so for me. Some of those attributes were in intensity and and another one in intensity of like in Ted's like I'm deep like you know the dating like a depth that freaks people out and another quality is a tenderness of heart that I have a kind of fierceness and attendance of heart both of which I got in a lot of trouble for in both of which I was kind of mortified by those are the parts that I had to learn to love and dignify and honor and then when I did I was able to meet someone who also is able to do that and that's the deep rich powerful journey the party are to yourself you feel the most vulnerable to reveal are the most beautiful most influential in the most important parts of you and it's at the definition of deeper dating that is that's the I foundation of deeper dating the discovery of these parts that I call your core gift and they're the places where you feel like the most deeply where you could be the most hurt and were are you experience the most joy there like your soul there your soul and love that so there is going in your book that was said Lose Weight at confident play hard to get this approach to dating doesn't lead to love it leads to insecurity in loneliness. You'd have really resonated so. Can you tell us more about that. Yeah Yeah Yeah so much. Dating advice is about fix yourself fix yourself and acting confident which is a really big one which I don't know. I don't think you get to act consistently confident and be authentic. It's ultimately choice between authenticity and whatever the fuck you think you're supposed to be feeling or you know when we can kind of like in good ways unhealthy ways reveal who we are. That like changes everything that changes everything that is like a wiser path. Dating advice is so seductive I would say like all. All these messages have self-improvement. They look like a really good thing but they're really self hate in really sexy outfit because they come down to. I'm not good enough. I mean honestly honestly I could not agree more and I think that's actually like one of the reasons why we start at this podcast at least for me is I think I read a lot of these really bad dating books. I I self help. Yeah like men like bitches or love bitches or something Spike Amazon for like years games that you ashamed it was number. One two I know and like honestly for years when I read followed advice from those books like nothing stock stock passed like a couple days temporary as soon as I was just like fucking be myself that's like when I started attracting like real relationships. I I one hundred ten sample. That stuff does not work. That's all superficial. It's just scratching the surface of what you can put a band aid over. You're not going deeper. Deep Down beneath the skin to see what is the root of the problem. I can think of in my lifetime this one prime example of where I really experienced variances deeper dating journey that you spoke of which was after college. I moved to a state that I try not to mention but it was Connecticut Cellino medicate how big Fan but I remember just being miserable and that's when match DOT COM was first starting out so I was on match and I was trying trying to go on all these dates and I was feeling really fatigued and I met someone a match and on our first date I felt absolutely no feelings for this person no attraction to the point where I thought Oh my gosh he'd be great for my best friend so I walked away from that date thinking. I was about to set him up with my best friend. I told I told her all about him. I you know I said you guys will be perfect together. She was very excited to meet him so he and I agreed to meet up again but to me it was not under the context of dating it was more like I was GonNa tell tell him about my girlfriend and when I went in this context and I had all my walls down because I wasn't trying to impress.

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This guy wasn't trying to think of all the self help ticks that I had in my mind. I was just being myself and I remember in that dinner. I thought Oh my Gosh I am extremely attracted to him. I will not not be setting him up with my best friend. We ended up dating for five years. I love that story your story a wave came time and left but also just that feeling of not in my head. It wasn't about me anymore. It was about me getting to know him so I can introduce him to my friend run but it was the focus was on him and I think that really helped me get past all those initial challenges. I it's great. I love that I think that's the problem with the Games. It's like you're just spending all his mental energy like strategizing and like thinking about like your next booth actually just like authentically like talking to another human being. It's true it's true. It's so lonely in that way and the amazing thing is the amazing thing is the part of your most trying to cover up a nut. Show is the most important part of you for finding loves. Absolutely this is will be here too. We have people telling us that they've they've tried all these tricks and all these things to improve themselves to make someone like them and then when we ask them. Do you actually like this person like as a human being if you've removed all the physical attraction do you like this person as a person and there would be a very long pause because it becomes about a achievement under accomplishment winning. The trophy in no longer becomes about to humans having relationship. I think the point that you made to like covering because I remember number like doing this like if he was in the rules that awful book that was like the Guy I wait three day like all these stupid things right and it's like I think I never wanted to look needy or like vulnerable and I remember like even a guy friend of mine was like just text him and say you had a good time. I like men like to hear that and I was like I don't WanNa like review the row off my turn that gets you is just a mandate. It doesn't think you're that interested yeah swimming's who thinks and I think honestly my personal opinion is like people that are playing those games and I think I think what you mentioned even by yourself in the early days is like you're just not ready like and that's okay. That's like Kinda. Maybe where you are right. This minute is that you're not ready for something real. We all someone that is ready for something. Real would be turned off by someone that like was so fixated on those types of games or was kind of losing interest in all all that stuff absolutely think also we have to take into account the doing what we're talking about is like running down escalator. You know it's like the the the entire cultural focus is on not doing that and I feel like I just was a victim of bad education. You know to some degree like I would have started way earlier doing the right thing if somebody that I know that that would work and showed me and guided me how I just had numerous opportunities to have sex meet new people and I kept thinking that had to be the way act of beat out there in putting yourself out there. They're in like consciously going on dates like doing all this stuff and sometimes it's like the Hamster Wheel Alec. You're actually doing the internal work and you're going going going like it. Definitely kind of what you said. Earlier resonated with me like there is a period of my life that I was like going out every night like not even a swing dating but just like with France was always around people people all the time and it was not until I like started like actually spending more time alone or like a terrible break-up at that was like a huge catalyst for myself you really start like being about one with own emotions and not just like covering them up with like other people and activities and superficial dates in all of that. I blame it on the media. It's media portrayal of what this fabulous single life should be. It's about experiences is about having a rotating door of these characters in your life who take you to fancy dinners or crazy vacations but on these TV shows in these in these films you never see the conversations conversations that are being had. Those are the characters who truly matters. I blame it on the media and education yeah. We just don't actually know what a fabulous single. Life should actually look like or books. I think the fact that those were like the Amazon top sellers teen yeah. I shouldn't shelly hand to see that unreal. Oh God yeah and then I now got to kind of go off on this a little bit about dating advice and a few different ways one thing. Is that this concept concept of trying to make yourself irresistible that just breaks my heart when I hear people think that they have to become irresistible.

00:35:08 - 00:40:02

You don't have to become erase irresistible irresistible to quality men No you have to be you and then there's someone who you is going to be irresistible to and mets what you have to do but you can't do both at once you cannot focus on the external and like kind of Shimmying it around so it looks like irresistible and and still be you as much as they say like be irresistible but be authentic be confident but be authentic. It's it's a wonderful idea but it's just not reality so that's one thing. I WANNA say there's another one too which like really bothers me a lot and that is this concept of like. Are you going to be truly feminine woman woman or are you going to be an if a woman and you're going to be an Alpha male if you're a guy and I just it just sickens me and I cannot tell you how many men that I have worked with in my practice who've come in like going through all those things about how to become a seducer you know and and had to do that and how to keep women hanging and you know all that kind of stuff it's just it's so ugly and so damaging at it just sucks and for women and somehow this kind of I. I don't know why it breaks my heart even more but I have I have met so many powerful accomplished women who say I know I can't be too focused on my career or or Miam- bishen because I won't be Feminine Enough and then I won't attract the kind of Alpha man that I really want and some of the biggest psychotherapists. The biggest teacher is the biggest spiritual figures are telling women you have got to connect to your innate femininity and telling men you've gotta you know so many people thank the men's movement is a lot better than it used to be but the men's movement message now. I think is very much for that. Many to connect to their femininity but I- bottom line is is that masculinity and femininity are generally related concepts and it's not accurate accurate. It's not accurate we are a spectrum of attributes which the real research around this stuff doesn't say masculine and feminine it says exp- expressive and instrumental into finds people as being expressive and instrumental and the couples where there's the most dancing and play were both partners get to be both are are the couples that have the best sex life and the best relationships so to all the women out there. I just want to say to you. Cherish your femininity but Sheriff Hugh Masculinity cherish all the different parts of you that make you you because there are guys out there who are looking for someone just like that really truly. I love that and I think we're both in our like mid thirties and I feel like when we were at least for me when I was growing up in high school and college and even like twenties like it was I heard a lot of this be more feminine eminent or alike men like famine women in then also like all these books that were like all these games that you had to play a rules. Be The proper lady like all this in. I feel like you just don't hear that stuff nearly as much anymore like we've talked to people really in there in just like what what's the rules like. I have no idea what you're talk to you about and I think it's amazing that we are actually pushing through with that because I think for years that stuff has been really detrimental to make people people that they aren't yeah. You can't put people fauna box and that's something I've been learning. This year is that they're actually no personality types. You can't just be like this one personality because we're all multiple all to pull thoughts in our head that form some sort of personality sometimes and I think how we choose to be a choice so in certain areas of my life I can choose to be more feminine in certain areas of my life. I can choose to be more masculine but either way that's my choice and I shouldn't guilty about having these choices and I shouldn't feel feel like I need to feel a certain way in my femininity masculinity and those words are just toxic to females masculine on the mess on the male side. I mean I've really embracement who cry doesn't make them any more female masculine. It doesn't even matter we shouldn't put a gender association a few years but also we can't go the complete opposite way either right. We still have to think about who we want to be a noxious. Let the wind blow. Wave crashing wave is going down all of those and who we WANNA be might be different than who we we are and then that's like a really important point to look at and that makes me think about sex like this is a great sex. Question is with your partner. What kind of things are you afraid to do because they kind of I call them. The electrified trip wires of gender tab like when you go too far like out of your gender ender. This is the best question not only gender.

00:40:02 - 00:45:01

What are you afraid to do in bed. What parts of yourself are you afraid to show in bed and that's an amazing question because because sex is like an x ray into everything the parts of the year afraid to show embiid. Are the parts of you that you're afraid to show. I have an answer to that already and it's very basic. It's initiate. 'cause I feel like it's the males job to initiate. I mean obviously that just deeply embedded embedded in my brain. I need to unravel all of that but it makes me really scared to initiate sex and bet I love that yeah. I have no the only use that term evidence to go away official. You're exactly so anyways. I guess what are some other tools are ways that people can become like deeper daters. It's it's really important to know that we have these two circuitry of attraction and we can be attracted to people they call them. Attractions of deprivation and those are attractions. That's where we're turned on because we're trying to get the other person to be the person we want them to be and then they're attractions which I call attractions of inspiration where we're turned on by a person's goodness witness. Dab Capacity Consistency care love generosity and they're two different circuitry but they both feel like love they just feel like like love in different ways and most of us are not taught this and I think that one thing that we could do is to notice the difference between those two circuitry of attraction like who are the scratch that it's guys who are the scratch that each women that it ultimately does it work but you can't stop scratching but who are those attractions and and what's amazing is the pot of gold at the end of that rainbow is the parts of you that those people don't honor are are the parts of you. You've never learned to honor and so- unconsciously. You're trying to get this person. Who's never going to honor them to finally honor them. That's the underdog David have. It's very deep and here's another one here's another one this is wild like if you think of an attraction spectrum from zero to ten and you think that the people who are like like zero the people you're not attracted to it all and the people who were tens are the people who like you get physical symptoms. You're so attracted to them. You just you just feel sick inside side with desire and cleanliness and weakness and you feel insecure those people the tens that are like that intense couples research shows that the reason the Hinz turned you on so much is because unconsciously they embody the worst characteristics of your primary caregivers and consciously. You're going back to the scene of the crime to finally get them to love you in the way that you were not love. Oh my gosh go. Oh Oh holy shit okay. I'm going to revisit that one heard stuff like that before and it's beyond physical attraction action it is it is like like you know you have to be physically attracted to someone but what what Hendrix says is that consciously. You're attracted to the good equalities unconsciously. You're drawn to the places where you feel like you've lost love where it fell into a chasm where you weren't seen in where you were at mit where your heart was broken where you didn't feel like the real you was ever cherished and so you choose people who somewhere inside. I do know they're going to like knock part you either but they really like you and you feel like this is the perfect situation because I could get them to love me and these Caesar attractions of deprivation attractions of inspiration. You're more likely to feel the wave so when you feel the wave you should actually celebrate because is it probably means. Somebody's available in your terrified. Now that does not mean you should be with someone. You're not sexually attracted to you. You should not be with someone. You're not sexually attracted attracted to so. It's got to be someone who's right for you. It's really important to know that you've got to circuitry attraction. You know very primary anyway and then I didn't ever tell you that little trick that you could do that process that you did what it was on that day. Yeah yes go to bathroom. It's a fabulous. Louis process and it's really simple so you're on a date and your head is going going going going going about like do you look right. Did you still food on your shirt. do you like this person. Is he attractive. What is he really going to be like. What's he gonNA like embed. Whatever whatever whatever whatever am I interested in my not like your head is racing early Liane and that is like endless. It's like a kind of endless loop but if you do this thing where you actually stop and you drop down into your you're like guts like we say in Jewish.

00:45:01 - 00:50:08

Your kiss goose like you're like you're. You're like deep down inside self you. Just drop down there and think what's the weather like in here with this person. What do I feel like. What's the atmosphere like that? I feel inside by self in the presence of this person. You'll get a different answer than what your head is telling you and that answer is really important and that's exactly that story of like the minute you thought about your friends you you dropped out of your head and into your guts like this guy's gold. He's really special so that process is something that we also do because below the mind your her insides. Your guts are telling you what it really feels like this person. Somebody may be gorgeous in Sweden and funny and accomplished and sexy as hell but you drop down inside in it's like Ooh. It just feels cold in here. Is He ever GonNa notice me so that's fabulous dating technique to kind of find out what the real the truth is. Is there something physical that people can do. Maybe hand over their abdomen or deep breathing. What is I think people want something like tectonics. I think I think deep abdominal breathing is a really good way to do. It really good way to do it. I have to say the bathroom is a federal thing. When you get away from from that person you could breathe again yeah and then it's easier to recognize what you're feeling interesting so it's been awesome conversation. I guess what's GonNa. There's some takeaways yeah. I'M GONNA go back to. We kind of a little bit when on the skin four I'm soon go back to that. I'm I'm I'm. GonNa run with it. For your skin to change people know that it's not just surface level -pointment you have to go deep down and do laser resurfacing resurfacing because you're just trying to get to the bottom layer of your skin. I feel like with dating. We are constantly scratching the surface pointing pudding -pointment on our surface scheduled to get blemishes to get rid of dry itching s what not but for that skin to change permanently. You have to go deep down. We've said this before. We'll say this again. It's going deeper into dating does not mean the circumference of the skin. It's not about a numbers escape. It's not about quantity going deeper into yourself of what you're talking about. Ken of how you see love. What are you trying to fine lined with love. Who are you deep down. What are the areas of you that are you're ashamed of the you can work on and to embrace and when you go deeper down in yourself and trusting your gut going into your gut that sling you can see your surface skin change and that's why I love this conversation. Do we have to go deeper. It's not a popularity contest. I have to say that again. It's not a popularity contest with all the APPS that we have right right now. It is a popularity contest. How many likes can you get. How many matches can you get it does not matter goal in life is not to appeal to the Nasice unless if you're a celebrity that's a different story but your goal is to find true love whether that's one person or just a handful of people but but it's not in the millions of people out there right that's right. That's right that's right. We've been misguided that way and there's this fabulous fabulous image from physics that really really captures this as about gravity greater mass. An object has more gravity. It has so the more you are you. The more self there is the more or the people around you like the more you are authentic. The more people have felt sense of your presence. The more powerful you become the more mass of self there is more best there is the more gravity is more gravitas and in physics. The definition of gravity is a force that brings outside objects to the center the the object that has the gravity so when you are really you visit power. There's an originality. There is a glow. There's a radiance. Sean's that not everyone will notice but the people who are looking for somebody like that will be twenty times more likely to notice you when Judah Judah I think my takeaway and I need to take my own advice here. It's like I'm always like someone that always goes for the instant connection and I. I think like for me if I don't feel like there. Is that even not just with dating but lake people I meet anyone. I feel like they're not the right person or like there's a reason and why this person in. I aren't match platonic or Romantically and I love this idea of like why cut off that option like why not did out a little like what do you have to lose of just giving it a little more time and if you still feel that way like you said like you shouldn't be dating people you're not attracted to that's not fair to it's not fair to give all around but at the same time like giving people a chance leading the the wave crash like.

00:50:09 - 00:55:04

I really think that's that's a good way to approach things yeah. I think that's really true. There's a lot of sensuality. There's a lot of connection on the other side of that when you when you allow yourself to do that in my book I talk a lot about that. Like what do you do when you're only a tiny drop attracted to somebody but you think there's a possibly there's a lot of techniques you can do to deepen your sexual. She will desire for someone in a case like that. That's an interesting yeah like don't learn to that. You said that's a super interesting point. Two people feel like like they need to know right away because that's how we do things nowadays. It's how we consume content. You know on Youtube. You watch a video radio five seconds. It doesn't catch your attention and you move onto the next one but we forget that with dating we're dealing with human beings and not content to these are not just awesome vs plank in front of you so for us to really gauge how we feel. We have to give everybody time and you have to think about the flip side. Is You want others to also also give you that time as well. This is all very related to our question of the day so shall we do that yeah. Let's do it question comes from Rebecca Rebecca. She says love the dateable podcasts. Thank you girls for helping me unravel some of my own frustrations with dating now. I need your help. I feel very conflicted about what is the most affective way to date. I'm busy. We're all busy so it's impossible for me to devote a lot of time to summon at first when I'm unsure about my feelings for them. Some people would argue that you you should know within the first five minutes. I'm meeting someone others would say everyone deserves at least three dates before really getting a feel for them. What do y'all think. Can we think about this. They kind of have an answer that very wise person my mentor gave me when I was in exactly that situation and I love his answer. I said some dating this guy and and he's a nice guy but I'm not like sexually physically or even really romantically like excited by him and what John said to me is us keep dating him in a little bit of time. He's either going to become more beautiful to you or he's not and then. You'll know what's a little bit of time yeah yeah. I think we were talking like three day four dates right because it's it's a balance like I think there is a part. That's like I totally get what she's saying. It's not fair to keep someone on the hook for months. If you have no intention to that but like we've been saying through this whole episode is like maybe there is a benefit of letting that we've ride out and like see if there is something about this person if you felt attracted to them and then it went away. There was the wave attracted than it went away. You stay baby. You stay until you know who that a person is. If there's never been attraction then give yourself a break does for you if you feel repulsed by the person probably no need you to spend time. I think a good gauge is like one. Are you excited to hang out with them. If it and you're like a real shy didn't agree to this. It's like I'd rather be sitting. I've had dates before them like I'd rather be sitting at home by myself. Wow then that's not a this is a sign that this is not the Right Person Pad Dr. There is that I think also if they touch you in. You're like squirming. That's not a great side either like it doesn't have to be like full-on on make out but if they give you like a touch like pat on your shoulder. You're like yeah running for the hills yeah. I guess if you feel like there's a baseline friendship because I don't feel repulsed by my friends that I'm not sexually attracted to write like what I'm saying is. If you feel like you hang out oh this person as a friend. You should definitely see them again but if you feel like there's not even a baseline friendship there then there really is no need to pursue that and I don't love formulas but I do think this one works which is maybe it's like three dates but I think if you are in three different circumstances when when someone is a good gauge of your traction one is something very casual. Maybe it's like a walk or hike that takes a long period of time like three to four hours so you can just do nothing together and see what that feels like to. Is something inactivity where you're both a little bit new at or you're you're fearful of trying out something new together for the first time in the third. One is a nice dinner and where you get dressed up. It's an informal atmosphere and you have these more formal conversations. I think those are the three circumstances you can put yourself through before you get reach that conclusion whether you one percents. I love that it's not like just go on. Three drink deeds with a purse job. You'RE NOT GONNA. You're just like super confused the problem Sir Awesome so can if people want your help.

00:55:04 - 01:00:01

How can they reach you okay. Here's how they can go to deeper dating podcasts DOT COM or deeper predating dot com they can find my podcast which is called deeper dating everywhere they can go to the bookstore and get deeper dating the book or Amazon Amazon Amazon. Yes bookstores exist. I'm just doors to so deeper dating podcast dot com or deeper dating dot com. You can find out about my intensive. They do some very deep six months intensive with people I teach classes classes with podcast shares a lot a lot of this information in my book as well a soothing voice to podcast like pure bliss. Ah less anxious by the minute here give us a glimpse into what the deeper dating podcast about Osho. I'd love to love to there's there's so much material that can help people turn this kind of hellish needle in a haystack thing into actually journey of empowerment and healing and stuff if that works that we don't get taught so in this podcast. I answer people's questions I bring in guests who I think are doing really good an important work and I'd love to bring you guys in a sketch on this now. Good so wonderful people are doing great work and I guide people through. All of these stages the kind of things that we talked about. I teach you how to do it. In every episode you end up doing an exercise exercise or a process. That's your takeaway. It's like the the the prize in the box that it helps you take this kind of transform your journey in very real ways. I love it. The last podcast talked about my dad and his passing. He's a Holocaust survivor and the lessons of Love I learned from him. Wow so it took about lots lots of different things great wonderful. Thank you so much. Can you have this has been incredible being on our show and for inviting us to be on your show hold you to it the recording I do want to reach out to all of our listeners and talk about this idea of having our journey and I I love having this mindset of seeing this as a journey as opposed to burden or a job. This should be fun. Self work is fun. You discover so many new things about out yourself in the people around you so if you WANNA share your journey with us out there whether it's your at the beginning journey or in the middle of it come on our show. We want to hear about it. We WanNa see what was that a hot moment that changed your life to get on this journey and that's always so wonderful to know or you're just so lost about how to even start the self self work and how did go deeper. Kamar show. We'll bring some experts on to help you get started so where wherever you are in that journey spectrum we would love to have you you think because we love to hear all perspectives if you are dead set rules and game over here for you to wrong. Let's hear everyone Julie Yeah. That's a good one. I really like to hear from that perspective and for people who are in serious relationships who are still on that journey not really really good point does not end at all David. You never stop dating your spouse. You just don't good things going Ken Hollow. Have you been with your husband almost nine years coming up on that ten year anniversary where you were getting there. We went to hike Oh Kilimanjaro. That's our goal. I did that last year. I I'd be happy to share some tips with only on your. It it gets Kilimanjaro. Let you ultimately find out if that person is actually awesome at ten in the whole time. I kept thinking I would never do this hike with my boyfriend. I would just I would kill before you cut someone off. Take them there. I was a kid. It'd be list. Thank you again. We're going to ask this update want to continue the conversation. I follow Louis on Instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcast tag us any post with a Hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. We look at all those posts then head head over to our website dateable podcast dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry experts. You can also find our our premium. Y series where we dissect analyze an offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums Roseau downloadable for free on spotify apple podcast cast Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us so don't forget to leave a review and most importantly remember to stay dateable.